Religion in the debate forum
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Grimmerick
Posts: 3,331 Member
Ok so I must say that I am disappointed that we have lost one of our most electrifying debators due to the fact that people have so much problem with her using her religion as the basis for her morals and lifestyle opinions in the debating arena. She is basically the only one here with the views she has coming from a religious standpoint and she is debated with by more than one person at a time. Now because someone has told her that if she always has to use her religion in the debates that her opinion isnt' really worth anything she has decided to leave the group. This disappoints me severely considering that in the debate group you can use whatever upbringing or opinions that you have based on how you were raised and your own personal life experiences. So I decided to turn this into a debate topic. Do you think someone's opinion isn't worth anything if they use their religion to help make most of their points...............especially if that is what they truly believe in?
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I think how a person explains themselves is way more important than the content of their posts.
I appreciated her ability to stay calm and polite and defend her beliefs even when challenged. I dislike people who use religion as a weapon to judge others, and I didn't ever see her do that. That's why I enjoyed her posts.
Unfortunately, her skill set is rare. When I converse with many who are religious, they are often quick to judge, get angry, etc. She is one of those who can avoid all that.
I'll miss her.0 -
excellent topic and question!
Yes and no... I am no longer willing to entertain conversation with people using religious, metaphysical or mythological ideas to discuss science, which is a massive problem especially back in the US, I find.
On the other hand, religion should provide ethical and moral frameworks and should have a place in debate. I love to see Rachel Maddow talkign to Michael Steele on her show, for instance - always civil and thought-provoking despite disagreements. He also doesn't try to say about dinosaurs and Jesus and the flat earth, either... But can talk in a clear and measured way about abortion.0 -
Without an opposing viewpoint there can be no debate. So I never, ever aprove of anyone being "run off". On the topic of religion it's far too big for any side to be declared a "winner". Cases can only be presented by each side. Let everyone else make up their minds as to who is right. Win your argument by being convincing and accurate. Not through cruelty.
Listen I know I don't need to tell everyone what side I fall on. I've got "Inherit the Wind" on right now for pete's sake. But I would rather hear the opinions of those I disagree with than people who feel the same as me about everything. You learn things that way.
I would hope the member who left would please reconsider and return. I'm not going to tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't say, that's not my place. But I would ask that we all strap on our helmets and not let the "other side" get to us. Rising above is one of the best ways to prove the moral highground anyway.0 -
I would like it if she returned as well0
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I don't know the details of this particular situation, but my general answer would be "yes, no......maybe". Depends on the context and the topic.
If someone's religious faith forms an important part of their moral/ethical foundation, then it is natural for them to reference that....in the context of "based on my religious beliefs, I think this....".
However, when it comes to providing "evidence" or "proof" or an expected common moral reference, then my answer would be "no". In general, I feel that someone's sectarian beliefs are only applicable to those who subscribe to those same sectarian beliefs. If someone is going to say that "X" behavior is "wrong" solely because their sectarian beliefs or writings forbid it, then I would find it difficult to respect or place any value in that opinion. They are free to follow whatever dictates they want, and I will support their right to do so, but I can't think of any "religious" person--or "religious" minister, priest, bishop, pope, imam, etc--who is intellectually, spiritually, morally, emotionally, psychologically, ecumenically, or grammatically qualified to set my moral values.0 -
I think how a person explains themselves is way more important than the content of their posts.
I appreciated her ability to stay calm and polite and defend her beliefs even when challenged. I dislike people who use religion as a weapon to judge others, and I didn't ever see her do that. That's why I enjoyed her posts.
Unfortunately, her skill set is rare. When I converse with many who are religious, they are often quick to judge, get angry, etc. She is one of those who can avoid all that.
I'll miss her.
This!0 -
Debating is no fun if everyone agrees. :frown:0
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I think that when it comes to things that require logic/ knowledge then an argument based solely on religion is weak simply because religion is a matter of faith not logic. (if it were a matter of logic it would require no faith) However, we are generally debating morality and many people's morality comes from their religion of choice so it is a totally valid argument.0
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I think its very upsetting that we live in a world where one is shunned and humiliated simply for their beliefs. The saddest part about reading the posts from the people doing all the "bashing" is that they appeared very uneducated themselves. Those that defend science without the consideration of religion are in my opinion the most ignorant kind of people. Modern science would not exist without religion. And that is a fact you cannot argue.
Religion provided the leeway to science. Had religion not forced us to believe, who would have been there to fight back and question? Science, while it has proven much, has not proven it all. And there are many scientists who would tell you they cannot for certain say there is no god. Because there is no evidence either way.
Besides, the science religion debate may be one of the best of all time. You always need the other side to have a fun debate:)0 -
And to some of us on the other side, we know this debate wasn't always so "fun". People used to be locked up and worse. Religion destroyed the advancements that were being made in the Arab world centuries ago. It gave us the dark ages. It burned witches and nonbelievers. Even today it flies buildings into planes.
Now these days nonbelievers have a voice. And we won't go back to being told to shut up about it.
I respect everyone's right to HAVE a belief. That's it. I don't have to respect their beliefs. Every religion disagrees with the belief system of every other religion, I don't get what all the fuss is about simply because some of us think they're all wrong.
If you can not accept that others don't share what you believe, disagree with it and downright oppose it, you can't engage in debate.0 -
Ok so I must say that I am disappointed that we have lost one of our most electrifying debators due to the fact that people have so much problem with her using her religion as the basis for her morals and lifestyle opinions in the debating arena. She is basically the only one here with the views she has coming from a religious standpoint and she is debated with by more than one person at a time. Now because someone has told her that if she always has to use her religion in the debates that her opinion isnt' really worth anything she has decided to leave the group. This disappoints me severely considering that in the debate group you can use whatever upbringing or opinions that you have based on how you were raised and your own personal life experiences. So I decided to turn this into a debate topic. Do you think someone's opinion isn't worth anything if they use their religion to help make most of their points...............especially if that is what they truly believe in?
Why wouldn't her opinion count as much as anyone elses? She shouldn't let anyone dictate her worth especially on a debate board. If she can't stand firm, or doesn't want to deal with other peoples nonsense she is doing the right thing for herself.
I have been online for years and I used to debate all the time, and I debated with some really mean *****es. lol You need to be tough and hold your own. In the end not everyone is going to stick with online debates.0 -
And to some of us on the other side, we know this debate wasn't always so "fun". People used to be locked up and worse. Religion destroyed the advancements that were being made in the Arab world centuries ago. It gave us the dark ages. It burned witches and nonbelievers. Even today it flies buildings into planes.
Now these days nonbelievers have a voice. And we won't go back to being told to shut up about it.
I respect everyone's right to HAVE a belief. That's it. I don't have to respect their beliefs. Every religion disagrees with the belief system of every other religion, I don't get what all the fuss is about simply because some of us think they're all wrong.
If you can not accept that others don't share what you believe, disagree with it and downright oppose it, you can't engage in debate.
Because this isn't the debated topic I'm not going to defend my point, but I'll still make it. Dark ages existed then in a different meaning to how they exist now. The most damage we've done to the planet has been thanks to scientific advancement. Qualitty of life may have improved, but at what cost? You said religion flew planes into buidings, who created those planes? Who had the education to FLY the plane? Modern religion and science work hand in hand. I think the damage religion did to people is miniscule compared to the damage science has done to the world. We've created a world we cannot physically sustain for much longer, and unless science fixes their problems, we might be wishing religion had done its job properly and repressed it fully.
But you're right, everyone is entitled to their opinion and not everyone is going to be "nicey-nice" about it. That does not entitle anyone to blatanly bash religion, but it does given everyone the right to their own personal opinion.
ETA: I also just realized you assume were on opposite sides lol. I'm by no means religious, I was raised catholic but am doing my double major in chemistry and mathematics. I'm about as factual as they come in the scientific world, but with my background knowledge I've learned there's a lot of room for improvement, and that improvement could come from either religion or science. (Though with how progress has been made, my guess is science will eventually disprove all beliefs of an alleged "god")0 -
Ok so I must say that I am disappointed that we have lost one of our most electrifying debators due to the fact that people have so much problem with her using her religion as the basis for her morals and lifestyle opinions in the debating arena. She is basically the only one here with the views she has coming from a religious standpoint and she is debated with by more than one person at a time. Now because someone has told her that if she always has to use her religion in the debates that her opinion isnt' really worth anything she has decided to leave the group. This disappoints me severely considering that in the debate group you can use whatever upbringing or opinions that you have based on how you were raised and your own personal life experiences. So I decided to turn this into a debate topic. Do you think someone's opinion isn't worth anything if they use their religion to help make most of their points...............especially if that is what they truly believe in?
Why wouldn't her opinion count as much as anyone elses? She shouldn't let anyone dictate her worth especially on a debate board. If she can't stand firm, or doesn't want to deal with other peoples nonsense she is doing the right thing for herself.
I have been online for years and I used to debate all the time, and I debated with some really mean *****es. lol You need to be tough and hold your own. In the end not everyone is going to stick with online debates.
I don't think it was a lack of toughness that caused her to want to leave. I think it was the ad hominem attacks. When she would make a strong point for her position, some folks would just reply along the lines of "ya but I don't believe in Religion so you're wrong". That's kind of like "oh yeah? you're ugly!" It doesn't address the topic, it just insults the other person. It's usually the sign of a weak argument...0 -
Ok so I must say that I am disappointed that we have lost one of our most electrifying debators due to the fact that people have so much problem with her using her religion as the basis for her morals and lifestyle opinions in the debating arena. She is basically the only one here with the views she has coming from a religious standpoint and she is debated with by more than one person at a time. Now because someone has told her that if she always has to use her religion in the debates that her opinion isnt' really worth anything she has decided to leave the group. This disappoints me severely considering that in the debate group you can use whatever upbringing or opinions that you have based on how you were raised and your own personal life experiences. So I decided to turn this into a debate topic. Do you think someone's opinion isn't worth anything if they use their religion to help make most of their points...............especially if that is what they truly believe in?
Why wouldn't her opinion count as much as anyone elses? She shouldn't let anyone dictate her worth especially on a debate board. If she can't stand firm, or doesn't want to deal with other peoples nonsense she is doing the right thing for herself.
I have been online for years and I used to debate all the time, and I debated with some really mean *****es. lol You need to be tough and hold your own. In the end not everyone is going to stick with online debates.
I don't think it was a lack of toughness that caused her to want to leave. I think it was the ad hominem attacks. When she would make a strong point for her position, some folks would just reply along the lines of "ya but I don't believe in Religion so you're wrong". That's kind of like "oh yeah? you're ugly!" It doesn't address the topic, it just insults the other person. It's usually the sign of a weak argument...
I don't know the context of the debates in question or even the people to whom this thread is about, but I do know if I was debating someone and they told me that my opinion on ABC didn't count because of my beliefs I would tell them to STFU and then I would prove my point to them.
I am an atheist, I have had countless people tell me that my opinion on the Bible doesn't count, even though I was probably more knowledgable than they were on the subject. In their minds, because I didn't believe (anymore) I was unable to grasp what was being said in the Bible. To me people who say things like that are lazy or just completely ignorant and imo you either have to ignore them or tell them to stfu (and many times prove them wrong). But those are the types of people you have to have it out with on occasion if you're going to debate online. But if you can't do that, or you think life is too short to spend your time arguing with idiots, then its better to carry on. JMO0 -
I'm sad she left. She was fun to debate with. But I'm sure she got tired of having to defend her position against the many nonbelievers that would argue with her. If there was a more even number of believers vs nonbelievers I think it would have been a more even playing ground.0
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I think her opinion is as valid as mine or yours. We all come from different standpoints, moral upbringing, beliefs, etc and no-one's 'opinion' is more valid than anyone else's. I may not agree, and I may think your argument lacks evidence, but it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Like others have said, it'd be a pretty dull debate if we all agreed. While I never saw any insults, if they were there, that's not good!0
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I think her opinion is as valid as mine or yours. We all come from different standpoints, moral upbringing, beliefs, etc and no-one's 'opinion' is more valid than anyone else's. I may not agree, and I may think your argument lacks evidence, but it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Like others have said, it'd be a pretty dull debate if we all agreed. While I never saw any insults, if they were there, that's not good!
There were no insults but she was PMed and asked to leave the Debate forum. She has not told me who but if she does we will have a problem. Our forum rules state no PMing others to continue debates from the forum and PMing them to tell them they should leave should be a common sense NO-NO. I have asked her to contact Mike with the people that have PMed her to leave, I don't think he will approve of this behavior, and If I find out who it is I will speak with the other owners but I can tell you they won't be allowed to debate here anymore. To the unknowns, If this sounds like you I would suggest that you stop it's childish and rude and if you can't handle someone elses opinion in a DEBATE forum no matter what background they are using for the basis of their opinion then you need to be the one to leave, you have no right to tell someone else they need to leave............ the sheer audacity of it is unfathomable and will not be tolerated.0 -
I have no issues with anyone using their religious beliefs to debate. Bring them to the table, it will make for a good conversation.0
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What is an opinion worth? It's a hard question to answer. I disagree with anyone who can't make a decision or reach any conclusion without consulting some ancient Middle Eastern religious manuscript. I don't care if we are talking about morality or science or philosophy. That's my opinion. What's that worth?
If a person, atheist, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Scientologist comes to every debate and cannot state an opinion or idea that doesn't stem from their belief structure, then their belief structure is fair game to be debated as well as long as obeying forum rules.
With that being said, she whould inform on the person who PMed her because if it happened to her, this person will do it again.0 -
Any chance the person or persons that PMed her to leave want to step up to the plate, own up and defend their actions? I am all ears and very interested to hear your reasoning. This is a debate forum after all.0
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Any chance the person or persons that PMed her to leave want to step up to the plate, own up and defend their actions? I am all ears and very interested to hear your reasoning. This is a debate forum after all.
People actually PMed someone to request that they leave a debate group because they disagreed with her views? WOW.0 -
Any chance the person or persons that PMed her to leave want to step up to the plate, own up and defend their actions? I am all ears and very interested to hear your reasoning. This is a debate forum after all.
People actually PMed someone to request that they leave a debate group because they disagreed with her views? WOW.
It'd be ridiculously funny, were it not so appalling and disrespectful. I hope she does say who it was, that just ain't right!0 -
It really surprises me too and I don't care for it one bit. I think if anyone here qualifies as your typical "Angry Atheist" it's me. But I would still NEVER do something like that! And if a fellow atheist is doing it I wouldn't mind having a friendly chat with them. This is not how you win people to your cause.0
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Do we know it actually happened? Without names, how do we know?0
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Do we know it actually happened? Without names, how do we know?
This is the first time I have posted about it, but she has been having this issue for a while, and I have directed her to turn in any proof she has to Mike (since he is the big Kahuna I figured it's best to let him deal with it). I just wanted to let people know what was going on so they could voice their opinions and make it known that they dont' agree with what this person is doing in hopes that they will realize that none of us will put up with that on this forum. I was really hoping that whomever it was would have the cajones to step up themselves but since they don't we'll just have to let them know this way......................for now.
and if it really didn't happen (which I do doubt) thats one of the reasons I didn't press her to tell me who it was. The burden of proof is on her and Mike is the judge so I figure for us it's best to discuss this anonymously so it's not a big thing on this forum true or not. It also will help us to know if this is happening to anyone else and they just haven't come forward with it.0 -
Yeah, that was my thoughts too.Do we know it actually happened? Without names, how do we know?0 -
Yeah, that was my thoughts too.Do we know it actually happened? Without names, how do we know?
It happened. It's been discussed between mods for a little while prior to today, before she ever initially left.0 -
What is an opinion worth? It's a hard question to answer. I disagree with anyone who can't make a decision or reach any conclusion without consulting some ancient Middle Eastern religious manuscript. I don't care if we are talking about morality or science or philosophy. That's my opinion. What's that worth?
If a person, atheist, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Scientologist comes to every debate and cannot state an opinion or idea that doesn't stem from their belief structure, then their belief structure is fair game to be debated as well as long as obeying forum rules.
With that being said, she whould inform on the person who PMed her because if it happened to her, this person will do it again.
This, in its entirety.0
This discussion has been closed.