Prayer in Schools

poisongirl6485

Here's a VERY good transcript of a discussion/presentation regarding religion in schools. All contributions came from either people of faith or Pastors/Reverends. I personally found it quite refreshing that there are people of faith who object to schools leading prayers and sponsoring religious activities, etc.

It's a long transcript but well worth the read, and possibly debate.

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/con23.htm

BrettPGH

That's wonderful.

The thing people don't realize is how much the separation of church and state protects their religion. They like to keep their statements vague, "They should have prayer in school" "Things went to hell when the took God out of the classroom." and the like. You know the rhetoric.

But they never say WHICH. They want THEIR religion in schools. And that's a problem for everyone. Sure we're assuming the Christian God since this is the U.S. But still, which? Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, yada yada. These groups have conflicting beliefs just as as a whole Christians disagree with Muslims who disagree with Jews while everyone disagrees with Scientology. We can't try to work all these belief systems into our children's education nor should we. These things can be taught at home, in church, etc.

And children are free to practice their own religion as they see fit in schools. That's the truth. They just aren't allowed to force religion on all the children, it can't be government (school) sponsored. Why is this a problem? Why must there not only be prayer but why must all the children be forced to pray to your God?

Keeping government out of religion keeps religion safe. Rather than railing against it they should praise the wisdom of our founders, bunch of slave owning deists that they were.

dragonbait0126

I personally found it quite refreshing that there are people of faith who object to schools leading prayers and sponsoring religious activities, etc.

^^^This! There are way too many religions in this country to think for a second that every child in school follows a particular one. If you want to offer a religious course as an elective (or a requirement in college depending upon the degree) then by all means go for it. I think those courses help teach and promote tolerance and understanding of others. But unless the school is a private religious school and not a public one, the school should not lead prayers and religious activities. If your kid wants to say grace before lunch, great! Don't make the other kids do it too.

BrettPGH

The only problem with the article is that someone needs to let the good Rev. Linklater know that there's no such thing as atheist prayers...

poisongirl6485

The only problem with the article is that someone needs to let the good Rev. Linklater know that there's no such thing as atheist prayers...

Haha I saw that too!

BrettPGH

The only problem with the article is that someone needs to let the good Rev. Linklater know that there's no such thing as atheist prayers...

Haha I saw that too!

An Atheist Prayer:

Dear no one,

Whatever.

killerqueen17

I never understood all the hype to "get prayer back in schools!!!!" or whatever. Prayer never left the schools!

I prayed in school often, sometimes by myself, and also daily with a group of Christian students between 1st and 2nd period. I would also bring my Bible to school and openly read it during free time if I felt like doing so.

I agree that NO religion should be mandated-- mine, or anyone else's. Even God himself gives us free will, and offers us the choice to follow him or not.

macpatti

I am opposed to religion being taught in public schools and group prayer in public schools. Whose religion would get taught? Are we going to be sure all teachers are well versed in all religions? I certainly don't want a non- Catholic teacher educating my child on our faith. If parents want their children to learn religion in school, send them to a private school. If they can't afford that, churches offer free religious educations on the weekends.

Children can pray in public schools - in their heads.

futiledevices

If you want religion taught in school, go to a catholic or whatever denomination school. I don't think it should be taught if you're in a public school.. it would be very confusing and possibly offensive to be forced to learn about jesus if you were muslim. If someone feels the need to pray quietly at school on their own, though, I think that's ok.

poisongirl6485

I am opposed to religion being taught in public schools and group prayer in public schools. Whose religion would get taught? Are we going to be sure all teachers are well versed in all religions? I certainly don't want a non- Catholic teacher educating my child on our faith. If parents want their children to learn religion in school, send them to a private school. If they can't afford that, churches offer free religious educations on the weekends.

Children can pray in public schools - in their heads.

Exactly. People should WANT religions to stay away from school-led activities. It ensures both that religion isn't being forced on people that aren't religious, but keeps one religion from being taught over the others. People who want religion in schools in a teacher-led type of environment really aren't thinking through the far-reaching impact that type of environment would create.

daffodilsoup

It's really refreshing to see religious leaders speaking out against prayer in public schools. I have no objection to kids praying on their own account in public school, but teachers and administration should have no part in leading it. Hell, I didn't even want to stand up to say the Pledge of Allegiance because of the "one nation under God" bit.

AtticusFinch

I think if the school is funded by a church then a certain amount of religious activity, other than education per se, is to be expected. In the UK a lot of schools only exist because of religious intervention in previous centuries, and that tradition has carried on.

In these days of the multi-cultural populace however, structured practice of religion in schools should be minimal and liberal giving pupils of other faiths the ability to pray to their own God, or abstain where there is no faith being observed - regardless of who paid for the buildings. Many schools take this route some, particularly private schools, are still rather backward in this approach.

Schools are there to inform, not promote any particular belief system.

For me personally, growing up in the 60's, religion was never a dominant activity even though the primary school I attended was Church of England funded. Ironically though the scout movement, an out of school past time, was extremely religious by comparison with regular church parades, prayer, duty to God and the Queen, etc. Presumably this has also changed now, but I remember really resenting that aspect of being a Cub Scout - I was there for the communal activity, not to worship the God that Baden-Powell happened to follow.

BrettPGH

Most of what I know about the Church of England comes from Eddie Izzard. Funny if not a very accurate picture.

Sure it's swell that we're all pretty much in agreement here. But boring for the purposes of debate.

I wish that some of the members of the group, who have posted in other threads that they feel children should be forced to pray in school, would post in here and explain why they think that's a reasonable thing for the state to impose on the kids.

dragonbait0126

I am opposed to religion being taught in public schools and group prayer in public schools. Whose religion would get taught? Are we going to be sure all teachers are well versed in all religions? I certainly don't want a non- Catholic teacher educating my child on our faith. If parents want their children to learn religion in school, send them to a private school. If they can't afford that, churches offer free religious educations on the weekends.

Children can pray in public schools - in their heads.

Just for the sake of argument, as we discuss this are we limiting this to grades K - 12? How would you feel about a non-Catholic teaching religion, including Catholosism (sp!), to a college student (obviously the teacher would have the educational requirements to do so). Should colleges advise students that they can practice religion on thier own time but it cannnot be associated with the school (i.e. a religious fraternity) or is it okay in college but not in high school?

VeganGal84

An Atheist Prayer:

Dear no one,

Whatever.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

macpatti

Just for the sake of argument, as we discuss this are we limiting this to grades K - 12? How would you feel about a non-Catholic teaching religion, including Catholosism (sp!), to a college student (obviously the teacher would have the educational requirements to do so).

I think it's okay for a college professor to teach ABOUT Catholicism if it's in a World Religions type course. I would assume a university teaching a class specifically on Catholicism would hire a Catholic. It also depends on what type of university it is.

Should colleges advise students that they can practice religion on thier own time but it cannnot be associated with the school (i.e. a religious fraternity) or is it okay in college but not in high school?

I don't see why students cannot form clubs or fraternities specific to religion or race.

killerqueen17

Should colleges advise students that they can practice religion on thier own time but it cannnot be associated with the school (i.e. a religious fraternity) or is it okay in college but not in high school?

I don't see why students cannot form clubs or fraternities specific to religion or race.

Public colleges allow student groups which are specific to particular religions/cultures/etc, as long as any student is allowed to join. For example, at my university I could join the Black Student Union if I felt like it, and they would not be allowed to deny me membership. Student fees pay for club funding, so they have to be open to anyone. (In fact, since I now work at my university, I am acting as the faculty advisor for both the Black Campus Ministry and the Latino Felloship at my school, but that's another story!! haha)

And actually, I'm fairly certain that the same rules apply to public high schools. My public high school, for instance, had a Fellowship of Christian Athletes. I joined even though I was not an athlete. Sometimes public school students are told by administration that they cannot form certain clubs, like a Gay/Straight Alliance, or a faith-based club, and I have heard of these cases being challenged by the ACLU if the student pursues it enough. The general rule of thumb is that membership must be an option for any student-- every student in the school is free to join if they choose to do so. There may also be a rule about finding a faculty advisor as well, but I'm not sure.

LuckyLeprechaun

IMHO, when they're under 18, no teacher ought to be involved in religious teaching unless they are selected by the parents. Once they're in college, they are free-thinking adults and ought to be treated as such. If a college professor wants to lead a prayer group, I think that's swell. If a teacher at a public high school wants to do the same, I don't think that's fine. It's not so much (in my mind) about who is "paying for the buildings", etc. but more about the student's ability to learn without being influenced.

If students want to conduct a prayer group on their own, or read their scriptures or whatever, they ought to be able to do so as long as it doesn't intyerfere with the regular running of the school day. Susie bowing her head before she eats bothers nobody, and she ought to be able to.

From my perspective, as a teacher,
I never have discussions about religion or politics with any student I am teaching who is under 18. However, now that I work with young adults, I feel more comfortable having those kinds of topics come up with them. At this age they are more capable of hearing an opinion without immediately adopting it. Younger students can sometimes idolize teachers so much that if their teacher said it, it's gospel! (pun-sort-of? LOL)

macpatti

IMHO, when they're under 18, no teacher ought to be involved in religious teaching unless they are selected by the parents. Once they're in college, they are free-thinking adults and ought to be treated as such. If a college professor wants to lead a prayer group, I think that's swell. If a teacher at a public high school wants to do the same, I don't think that's fine. It's not so much (in my mind) about who is "paying for the buildings", etc. but more about the student's ability to learn without being influenced.

If students want to conduct a prayer group on their own, or read their scriptures or whatever, they ought to be able to do so as long as it doesn't intyerfere with the regular running of the school day. Susie bowing her head before she eats bothers nobody, and she ought to be able to.

From my perspective, as a teacher,
I never have discussions about religion or politics with any student I am teaching who is under 18. However, now that I work with young adults, I feel more comfortable having those kinds of topics come up with them. At this age they are more capable of hearing an opinion without immediately adopting it. Younger students can sometimes idolize teachers so much that if their teacher said it, it's gospel! (pun-sort-of? LOL)

I agree with all of this, and I like the pun! Because I work at a Catholic school, I have discussions on religion, politics, morality, social justice, etc with students all the time. We have non-Christian students at our school, and I learn from them as well. However, if I worked at a public school, there is no way I would have such discussions with students. As a parent, I do not want my son who is at a public school to have these discussions with his teachers, either.

Azdak

IMHO, when they're under 18, no teacher ought to be involved in religious teaching unless they are selected by the parents. Once they're in college, they are free-thinking adults and ought to be treated as such. If a college professor wants to lead a prayer group, I think that's swell. If a teacher at a public high school wants to do the same, I don't think that's fine. It's not so much (in my mind) about who is "paying for the buildings", etc. but more about the student's ability to learn without being influenced.

If students want to conduct a prayer group on their own, or read their scriptures or whatever, they ought to be able to do so as long as it doesn't intyerfere with the regular running of the school day. Susie bowing her head before she eats bothers nobody, and she ought to be able to.

From my perspective, as a teacher,
I never have discussions about religion or politics with any student I am teaching who is under 18. However, now that I work with young adults, I feel more comfortable having those kinds of topics come up with them. At this age they are more capable of hearing an opinion without immediately adopting it. Younger students can sometimes idolize teachers so much that if their teacher said it, it's gospel! (pun-sort-of? LOL)

I agree with all of this, and I like the pun! Because I work at a Catholic school, I have discussions on religion, politics, morality, social justice, etc with students all the time. We have non-Christian students at our school, and I learn from them as well. However, if I worked at a public school, there is no way I would have such discussions with students. As a parent, I do not want my son who is at a public school to have these discussions with his teachers, either.

Conversely, I taught at a Catholic high school myself. While we had discussions on those topics all the time as well, at no time would I push an opinion, doctrine, etc, that was contrary to Church teachings--(although I didn't speak out in favor of them either if I disagreed). Wasn't the appropriate time or place. To me public/private is a pretty easy distinction to make and it supports religious and non-religious believers alike.

Given religious history in America, it is no surprise that Catholics as a whole are pretty supportive of the separation of church and state. They have been on the butt end of religious discrimination more than a few times themselves.

macpatti

Conversely, I taught at a Catholic high school myself. While we had discussions on those topics all the time as well, at no time would I push an opinion, doctrine, etc, that was contrary to Church teachings--(although I didn't speak out in favor of them either if I disagreed). Wasn't the appropriate time or place. To me public/private is a pretty easy distinction to make and it supports religious and non-religious believers alike.

Thank you for making that clear. You're right~ it is never okay for us to have conversations with students pushing an opinion contrary to the teachings of the church. For example, we cannot have a Jewish teacher telling our students that Christianity is false. If someone is going to work at a Catholic school, they should be on board with the mission of the school and the teachings of the church. We also do not condemn any of our students for not being Catholic. We have Jewish, Islamic, Druze, Bahai, Buddhist, etc students too. We teach all of our students to be respectful of others' beliefs by the example we set.

mikajoanow

The only problem with the article is that someone needs to let the good Rev. Linklater know that there's no such thing as atheist prayers...

Haha I saw that too!

An Atheist Prayer:

Dear no one,

Whatever.

Too funny!

mikajoanow

My kids go to public school and the discussion of religion in the class room was taught from a very generic pov on all world religions. I even checked out the text books at one point just to make sure there was no funny business going on lol They did skim over the other world religions a lot faster than they did Christianity but outside of that, it was all on the up and up.


I don't know why anyone would want a public school leading their kids in prayer or teaching kids their (school officials) personal opinions on what scripture means. It protects everyone to leave this stuff alone.

Lozze

Well I'll come in here from an Australian perspective

I went to a public primary school. Once a week we'd have an hour of 'Scripture'. Someone from the local churches would come down and teach the kids. There were six different options and the only pre-requisite for having the class was that they could have someone to teach it. So the Catholics/Baptists/Anglican churches would send someone down and we'd split up in that fashion. We had no Islamic kids in my year, but my brother did (two) and the school arranged for someone to come and teach them. We had one Jewish girl in my year and they searched so hard but couldn't get someone to come down and do the class for her. There was also a class with parents who opted not to send their kids to any religious instruction. The Jewish girl would come to class when they were dealing with the Old Testament (no matter what denomination) but would go the 'no religion' class if everyone was dealing with the New Testament.

I went to a private Anglican school in high school so we had Biblical Studies all through high school twice a week, plus a fortnightly chapel 'class'. Prayer would happen in every tutor group (home room type class) Ironically I learnt the most about other religions at my high school as every year we would spend a term on another major religion. I loved those classes because we went really in depth.