Religion should be kept out of sports
Replies
-
Free will in religion doesn't exist. There's an either or an or. Either you believe in god and "live forever" or don't believe and "die a horrid life". HMMMMMMMMMMMMM. Sounds more like a forced ultimatum.
Free will should be: believe in god and get his goods, believe in allah and get his goods, believe in flying spaghetti monster and get awesome meatballs. Now you have free will to make a choice and not be coerced by some "death" sentence by a ruling egotist.
Free will in religion doesn't exist? Sounds like you're only referring to Christianity in your explanation. If God wanted to force everyone to believe in Him, He could. You can choose any religion you want, or choose to be an atheist. You can choose to look at a disabled child as having a sucky life, or you can choose to see his life as a gift worthy of meaning in some way. The choice is yours. If you choose NOT to believe in God, why would you even care about eternal life with Him? You wouldn't.0 -
I am referring to christianity. The gist is to believe in god or suffer in hell. That's not a choice......that's an ultimatum. The choice you're given comes with contingency. Free will doesn't have that. Look it up in the dictionary.Free will in religion doesn't exist. There's an either or an or. Either you believe in god and "live forever" or don't believe and "die a horrid life". HMMMMMMMMMMMMM. Sounds more like a forced ultimatum.
Free will should be: believe in god and get his goods, believe in allah and get his goods, believe in flying spaghetti monster and get awesome meatballs. Now you have free will to make a choice and not be coerced by some "death" sentence by a ruling egotist.
Free will in religion doesn't exist? Sounds like you're only referring to Christianity in your explanation. If God wanted to force everyone to believe in Him, He could. You can choose any religion you want, or choose to be an atheist. You can choose to look at a disabled child as having a sucky life, or you can choose to see his life as a gift worthy of meaning in some way. The choice is yours. If you choose NOT to believe in God, why would you even care about eternal life with Him? You wouldn't.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
I am referring to christianity. The gist is to believe in god or suffer in hell. That's not a choice......that's an ultimatum. The choice you're given comes with contingency. Free will doesn't have that. Look it up in the dictionary.
I think your description of the Christian understanding of things is a distortion. The choice is really between acknowledging God's supremacy and lordship or choosing to reject these things and be one's own "god" (or see life without reference to God). There are consequences of each choice but the fact that there are consequences does not take away freedom. Furthermore, why are choice and ultimatum incompatible? Let's say a parent says to a child, "If you break curfew you will be grounded for a month," the child is given an ultimatum but must also make a real choice when confronted with the temptation to stay out later than allowed. One may be given the ultimatum, "Trust in God or face eternal separation from God (i.e., hell), but this is not given in such a way that a person cannot choose to reject it. You apparently do not find sufficient reason to take the warning of hell seriously and therefore you do respond in faith to the ultimatum. I don't understand why a person can't freely respond to an ultimatum.0 -
I am referring to christianity. The gist is to believe in god or suffer in hell. That's not a choice......that's an ultimatum. The choice you're given comes with contingency. Free will doesn't have that. Look it up in the dictionary.
I think your description of the Christian understanding of things is a distortion. The choice is really between acknowledging God's supremacy and lordship or choosing to reject these things and be one's own "god" (or see life without reference to God). There are consequences of each choice but the fact that there are consequences does not take away freedom. Furthermore, why are choice and ultimatum incompatible? Let's say a parent says to a child, "If you break curfew you will be grounded for a month," the child is given an ultimatum but must also make a real choice when confronted with the temptation to stay out later than allowed. One may be given the ultimatum, "Trust in God or face eternal separation from God (i.e., hell), but this is not given in such a way that a person cannot choose to reject it. You apparently do not find sufficient reason to take the warning of hell seriously and therefore you do respond in faith to the ultimatum. I don't understand why a person can't freely respond to an ultimatum.
I don't understand why it's an ultimatum. You're promised eternal life in Heaven. It doesn't get any better than that! No more suffering; no more pain; no more heartache; no more worrying about anything. It's like if someone offers you the choice of 10 billion dollars or being broke for the rest of your life. I would take the 10 billion dollars thank you very much. It's just beyond me why anyone thinks it's an ultimatum. Heaven or Hell: hmm decisions decisions. 10 billion dollars or forever broke. Really?0 -
Death is fearful for many. Using it as a means (death in hell) to appeal for acceptance isn't free will. It's a scare tactic. Yes you have a choice when it comes to believing, but it shouldn't be defined as free will. Again, free will comes with no constraint from necessity or fate. There is OBVIOUSLY both when it comes to believing in god.I am referring to christianity. The gist is to believe in god or suffer in hell. That's not a choice......that's an ultimatum. The choice you're given comes with contingency. Free will doesn't have that. Look it up in the dictionary.
I think your description of the Christian understanding of things is a distortion. The choice is really between acknowledging God's supremacy and lordship or choosing to reject these things and be one's own "god" (or see life without reference to God). There are consequences of each choice but the fact that there are consequences does not take away freedom. Furthermore, why are choice and ultimatum incompatible? Let's say a parent says to a child, "If you break curfew you will be grounded for a month," the child is given an ultimatum but must also make a real choice when confronted with the temptation to stay out later than allowed. One may be given the ultimatum, "Trust in God or face eternal separation from God (i.e., hell), but this is not given in such a way that a person cannot choose to reject it. You apparently do not find sufficient reason to take the warning of hell seriously and therefore you do respond in faith to the ultimatum. I don't understand why a person can't freely respond to an ultimatum.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
It's a promise unfounded by proof. Has anyone verified this to be true that has already past away? NOPE. It's just a belief. But that same belief has christians thinking that those that don't believe are somehow in trouble for disregarding the story. And it's used as a means to politically gain office.I am referring to christianity. The gist is to believe in god or suffer in hell. That's not a choice......that's an ultimatum. The choice you're given comes with contingency. Free will doesn't have that. Look it up in the dictionary.
I think your description of the Christian understanding of things is a distortion. The choice is really between acknowledging God's supremacy and lordship or choosing to reject these things and be one's own "god" (or see life without reference to God). There are consequences of each choice but the fact that there are consequences does not take away freedom. Furthermore, why are choice and ultimatum incompatible? Let's say a parent says to a child, "If you break curfew you will be grounded for a month," the child is given an ultimatum but must also make a real choice when confronted with the temptation to stay out later than allowed. One may be given the ultimatum, "Trust in God or face eternal separation from God (i.e., hell), but this is not given in such a way that a person cannot choose to reject it. You apparently do not find sufficient reason to take the warning of hell seriously and therefore you do respond in faith to the ultimatum. I don't understand why a person can't freely respond to an ultimatum.
I don't understand why it's an ultimatum. You're promised eternal life in Heaven. It doesn't get any better than that! No more suffering; no more pain; no more heartache; no more worrying about anything. It's like if someone offers you the choice of 10 billion dollars or being broke for the rest of your life. I would take the 10 billion dollars thank you very much. It's just beyond me why anyone thinks it's an ultimatum. Heaven or Hell: hmm decisions decisions. 10 billion dollars or forever broke. Really?
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Death is fearful for many. Using it as a means (death in hell) to appeal for acceptance isn't free will. It's a scare tactic. Yes you have a choice when it comes to believing, but it shouldn't be defined as free will. Again, free will comes with no constraint from necessity or fate. There is OBVIOUSLY both when it comes to believing in god.
I understand "free will" to mean the power of self-determination. If our will is free, we can direct ourselves or determine our course of action or response to whatever it is we are "free" in regards to. Death may be scary and fearful but it is a fact. Can't we "determine" for ourselves how we will deal with the reality of death? Can't one person ignore the fact of death (and hell) because he would rather focus on a football game or something else? Can't a person choose to live life as if there is no accountability for our actions and choices? All of this is "freedom," if in fact we have the power to determine for ourselves how we will respond to such things. I'm not sure I understand your statement that "free will comes with no constraint from necessity or fate." Do you mean that in order to be free there can't be anything that is "best" or truly "good" for a person to choose? Consider a person who knows that he shouldn't eat McDonald's french fries and cheeseburgers every day because of health reasons but does so anyway simply because he likes the taste and lacks the virtue of self-control. There is truly a "good" choice here: the man should avoid McDonald's in order to be healthy. He doesn't choose to develop the virtue of self-control, however. Just because there is a "good" choice that humans should make about something doesn't mean they can't choose something inferior to that choice because of willful ignorance, rebellion, hate, anger, or whatever. If you are talking about "fate" and "necessity" in the other sense of God knowing our choices, that is another topic. For the moment, I am simply saying that "freedom" does not mean there is not a single, good choice that should be made but that a person has freedom to disregard or distort.0 -
We understand it is unfounded by proof. That's why it's called faith. And, yes, as Christians we believe that those who do not believe in Jesus and choose to follow Him will not have eternal life with Him.t's a promise unfounded by proof. Has anyone verified this to be true that has already past away? NOPE. It's just a belief. But that same belief has christians thinking that those that don't believe are somehow in trouble for disregarding the story
Many Christians do not approve of this. Nor do I approve of using God as the means for a win in a football game or lottery.And it's used as a means to politically gain office.0 -
There is an economic concept that is arguably universal, and I believe applies to the evolving topic in this thread. "Opportunity Cost" refers to the fact that in every decision one makes, there is a sacrifice being made. If I choose to go to the gym, I'm sacrificing time in front of the TV, or with my family, or whatever. The pure definition of Opportunity Cost would state that it refers specifically to the personal value of the NEXT best (or the least sacrificed) option, but we don't need to get that specific. The point is that with every decision, something is being sacrificed in its favor.
To address Ninerbuff's point that there is no free will, but only ultimatum, it seems that it's not much of a stretch to say that, taking the concept of opportunity cost into account, everything is an ultimatum as he is using the term. If this is true, then free-will doesn't exist at all, Christianity aside.
One doesn't have to like a concept to accept it's validity (free-will). There are moments that I wish gravity were not as strong as it is, but it is. Truth exists outside of our desires, ignorance, or wisdom.0 -
Funny we should have this topic. Everyone should head to Youtube and search SNL Tebow Jesus. I saw it last night, very funny.
For me, religion just falls apart logically. Our perceived free will is not a blessing when it comes at such a high price. Yes we have the option to not believe. You say God gave us that. He gave us choice. Many choices in fact.
So God creates imperfect beings and then punishes them for it. "Born sick and commanded to be well" a great man once said.0 -
Poor Tebow. I wish he would just play football and thank God on his own!Funny we should have this topic. Everyone should head to Youtube and search SNL Tebow Jesus. I saw it last night, very funny.
God does not punish people for being imperfect. If you reject Him, you won't get to spend eternal life with Him. Why would you want to, if you've rejected him? You wouldn't. None of us is perfect. He's not asking for perfection.So God creates imperfect beings and then punishes them for it.0 -
And now Survivor finale is on and they're all talking about God! Disgusting!0
-
Funny we should have this topic. Everyone should head to Youtube and search SNL Tebow Jesus. I saw it last night, very funny.
For me, religion just falls apart logically. Our perceived free will is not a blessing when it comes at such a high price. Yes we have the option to not believe. You say God gave us that. He gave us choice. Many choices in fact.
So God creates imperfect beings and then punishes them for it. "Born sick and commanded to be well" a great man once said.
Actually God didn't create imperfect beings. He created Adam and Eve perfect but they made the choice to sin.0 -
Actually God didn't create imperfect beings. He created Adam and Eve perfect but they made the choice to sin.
No offense intended but I don't believe in Adam & Eve or any other creation myth.0 -
If that story is true, Adam and Eve were at a disadvantage to all other humans. They were instructed to not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But if someone has no knowledge of good or evil, its fair to say they could easily go off and do the wrong thing.Funny we should have this topic. Everyone should head to Youtube and search SNL Tebow Jesus. I saw it last night, very funny.
For me, religion just falls apart logically. Our perceived free will is not a blessing when it comes at such a high price. Yes we have the option to not believe. You say God gave us that. He gave us choice. Many choices in fact.
So God creates imperfect beings and then punishes them for it. "Born sick and commanded to be well" a great man once said.
Actually God didn't create imperfect beings. He created Adam and Eve perfect but they made the choice to sin.0 -
Most people who reject the Christian God are going to do so based on geography and not much more.
Poor Tebow. I wish he would just play football and thank God on his own!Funny we should have this topic. Everyone should head to Youtube and search SNL Tebow Jesus. I saw it last night, very funny.
God does not punish people for being imperfect. If you reject Him, you won't get to spend eternal life with Him. Why would you want to, if you've rejected him? You wouldn't. None of us is perfect. He's not asking for perfection.So God creates imperfect beings and then punishes them for it.0 -
Funny we should have this topic. Everyone should head to Youtube and search SNL Tebow Jesus. I saw it last night, very funny.
For me, religion just falls apart logically. Our perceived free will is not a blessing when it comes at such a high price. Yes we have the option to not believe. You say God gave us that. He gave us choice. Many choices in fact.
So God creates imperfect beings and then punishes them for it. "Born sick and commanded to be well" a great man once said.
I saw that this morning, what a hoot!!0 -
Well the McDonald's example is easily debunked. You CAN eat McDonald's and be healthy. Again I go by the definition that is described by dictionary since it's not influenced by religion. Your definition is.Death is fearful for many. Using it as a means (death in hell) to appeal for acceptance isn't free will. It's a scare tactic. Yes you have a choice when it comes to believing, but it shouldn't be defined as free will. Again, free will comes with no constraint from necessity or fate. There is OBVIOUSLY both when it comes to believing in god.
I understand "free will" to mean the power of self-determination. If our will is free, we can direct ourselves or determine our course of action or response to whatever it is we are "free" in regards to. Death may be scary and fearful but it is a fact. Can't we "determine" for ourselves how we will deal with the reality of death? Can't one person ignore the fact of death (and hell) because he would rather focus on a football game or something else? Can't a person choose to live life as if there is no accountability for our actions and choices? All of this is "freedom," if in fact we have the power to determine for ourselves how we will respond to such things. I'm not sure I understand your statement that "free will comes with no constraint from necessity or fate." Do you mean that in order to be free there can't be anything that is "best" or truly "good" for a person to choose? Consider a person who knows that he shouldn't eat McDonald's french fries and cheeseburgers every day because of health reasons but does so anyway simply because he likes the taste and lacks the virtue of self-control. There is truly a "good" choice here: the man should avoid McDonald's in order to be healthy. He doesn't choose to develop the virtue of self-control, however. Just because there is a "good" choice that humans should make about something doesn't mean they can't choose something inferior to that choice because of willful ignorance, rebellion, hate, anger, or whatever. If you are talking about "fate" and "necessity" in the other sense of God knowing our choices, that is another topic. For the moment, I am simply saying that "freedom" does not mean there is not a single, good choice that should be made but that a person has freedom to disregard or distort.0 -
Well the McDonald's example is easily debunked. You CAN eat McDonald's and be healthy.
Debunked? It was an example that you obviously missed.0 -
And now Survivor finale is on and they're all talking about God! Disgusting!
In my religion, watching Survivor automatically damns you to hell. If you change channels before it's over, you can possibly still be forgiven.
Kardashians? No way--you're charcoal as soon as you hit the remote.0 -
I started watching Survivor a few weeks ago because I heard some of them were praying to God as they lied, manipulated, and back stabbed. I was curious how they would justify this. I realize it's for a million dollars, but I don't personally subscribe to "the end justifies the means". Just wondering if the winner was going to claim to use the money for "good".0
-
I find it incredibly arrogant when athletes do this. It's like, "God's clearly on my side, not yours."0
-
I'm genuinely surprised at the responses here. I never realized religion made it an "us vs them". I mean, its not like they choose to perform a sacrifice before every game in hopes of satisfying the God's so they may "win". I might never personally pray to god (should I ever acquire ANY type of athletic ability that earns me millions each year), but I'm not going to judge them for doing it either. I sometimes laugh when they thank God, but not enough to ban it from sports entirely.
Though I do find it funny when celebrities thank their parents and God at awards shows but forget the fans...0 -
But this god KNEW they would sin. So why create beings the would end up being imperfect?
Actually God didn't create imperfect beings. He created Adam and Eve perfect but they made the choice to sin.0 -
I don't think so. You're saying that eating McDonald's is a choice the will make you unhealthy. I'm saying (as well as science) that it won't. Point is the choice made isn't always one that leads to demise. Kinda like when christians say that not believing is god will leave you a dead shell of a person.Well the McDonald's example is easily debunked. You CAN eat McDonald's and be healthy.
Debunked? It was an example that you obviously missed.0 -
I don't think so. You're saying that eating McDonald's is a choice the will make you unhealthy. I'm saying (as well as science) that it won't. Point is the choice made isn't always one that leads to demise. Kinda like when christians say that not believing is god will leave you a dead shell of a person.
In my analogy I said, "Consider a person who KNOWS he shouldn't eat McDonald's for health reasons". You're trying now to debate whether or not McDonald's can be healthy. Thus, not focusing in the issue of free will.0 -
It's just some dude showboating his faith in a prideful way for attention. He has the whole car ride to the stadium, the locker room, the bus, the stadium entrance all to pray....and his church, but he decides to make some big show of it for the audience and the camera. It's all "look at me, look at me!"0
-
I am referring to christianity. The gist is to believe in god or suffer in hell. That's not a choice......that's an ultimatum. The choice you're given comes with contingency. Free will doesn't have that. Look it up in the dictionary.
I think your description of the Christian understanding of things is a distortion. The choice is really between acknowledging God's supremacy and lordship or choosing to reject these things and be one's own "god" (or see life without reference to God). There are consequences of each choice but the fact that there are consequences does not take away freedom. Furthermore, why are choice and ultimatum incompatible? Let's say a parent says to a child, "If you break curfew you will be grounded for a month," the child is given an ultimatum but must also make a real choice when confronted with the temptation to stay out later than allowed. One may be given the ultimatum, "Trust in God or face eternal separation from God (i.e., hell), but this is not given in such a way that a person cannot choose to reject it. You apparently do not find sufficient reason to take the warning of hell seriously and therefore you do respond in faith to the ultimatum. I don't understand why a person can't freely respond to an ultimatum.
I don't understand why it's an ultimatum. You're promised eternal life in Heaven. It doesn't get any better than that! No more suffering; no more pain; no more heartache; no more worrying about anything. It's like if someone offers you the choice of 10 billion dollars or being broke for the rest of your life. I would take the 10 billion dollars thank you very much. It's just beyond me why anyone thinks it's an ultimatum. Heaven or Hell: hmm decisions decisions. 10 billion dollars or forever broke. Really?
Invent your own religion and start a church. You can get your 10 billion AND go to heaven.0 -
Remember that SNL skit I mentioned? Jesus in the locker room talking to Tim Tebow?
Well apparently Pat Robertson and Fox News don't think it's so funny. Which is fine, they have no sense of humor anyway. And the world would be a better place without either of them.
http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/dish/201112/saturday-night-live-under-attack-thanks-tim-tebow-sketch
I can't stand people who can't take a joke.0 -
Remember that SNL skit I mentioned? Jesus in the locker room talking to Tim Tebow?
Well apparently Pat Robertson and Fox News don't think it's so funny. Which is fine, they have no sense of humor anyway. And the world would be a better place without either of them.
I can't stand people who can't take a joke.
But certainly you can see how someone would consider that blasphemy, right? Especially the likes of Pat Robertson.0
This discussion has been closed.