The jesus story isn't original
ninerbuff
Posts: 49,030 Member
Other stories similar to jesus' story preceded the new testament. Heracles was born half human half god, did "labors" of good, was killed, and resurrected to be a god. Horus is another man god story. Many of the births centered around the winter solstice.
So jesus story isn't original, it's just another rendition of a man-god story that was carried down through the ages.
Discuss.....
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So jesus story isn't original, it's just another rendition of a man-god story that was carried down through the ages.
Discuss.....
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Hercules and Horus are mythical stories. The story of Jesus Christ is not.
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Hercules and Horus are mythical stories. The story of Jesus Christ is not.
Aliens is a fictional movie. Lord Xenu the space titan is real!
Assertions with no evidence are meaningless.
I'm not convinced that Jesus Christ is a real person who existed. The only evidence comes from the bible. I've read up on this a bit, anyone who'd like to provide some i'd appreciate it. But i'll tell you now don't waste time with Josephus.0 -
Prove it. Both stories were written before the story of jesus. They carry the same birth at the same timelines. They have a god for a father. They were killed and "resurrected" and are now in eternal places of bliss. They are immortal. Their mothers were human.Hercules and Horus are mythical stories. The story of Jesus Christ is not.
Again what proof (the bible isn't proof because it's a storybook just like the Iliad) is there to show that jesus wasn't another story like Heracles and Horus.
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I can't "prove" it to anyone. You have to prove it to yourself.
A good book is Lee Strobel's The Case For Christ.
Draw your own conclusions based upon the evidence.0 -
Have you ever seen the original Zeitgeist movie, you can watch it on the internet, it's a very interesting documentary and the first hour is dedicated to where god stories came from if you haven't seen it I think you would find it very interesting0
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The ancient Greek/Roman (can't remember which story wen with wich at the moment) stories were just as true for them as the Jesus stories are to Christians. I fully expect that someday the Jesus stories will be considered mythology the same as the stories of Hercules, Zeus, etc are today.0
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C. S. Lewis, highly trained in the classics, used to use the same argument. He came to see that if there are parallels and similarities between Christian faith (a faith that affirms the real, historical entrance of God into human history), and mythological stories (that arose from deep human longings, experiences, hopes and fears), this confirms that Christianity answers to the universal longings of human nature. In other words, Christian faith does not appear as something "novel" or opposed to universal human desires and hopes but it precisely answers those longings. The difference, of course, is that in Christianity God actually does what the myths imagined. On the other hand, great caution should be exercised in making too hasty connections between ideas and stories that have superficial similarities. If you want a serious treatment of this issue I would recommend Ronald Nash's book, "The Gospel and the Greeks." He shows that many of the connections that are sometimes made between myths and Christianity (like Heracles) totally ignore the radically different world-views and cultures out of which these stories arose and that once you study the origins of the ideas/stories the similarities evaporate since what is meant by the story details is so dramatically different. A good example is to compare what the Hebrews meant by "resurrection" and what the Greeks and Romans meant. One could also point out the radical difference in definition of the term "God/god" as well. The Greek notion of the birth of "gods," their relationship with humans, their relationship to the material world (they were understood to be part of it), what it means to be half-human/half-god (just to mention things you mentioned) are so radically different from Christianity that it is, to be frank, entirely sloppy and unfair to the historical sources to lump them all together and claim that similarity implies origin (well-known logical fallacy). But back to my first point. Does it surprise you to find that there are stories across time and cultures about love? Courage? Justice/Injustice? Tragedy? Hope? Of course not. Why should it surprise us to find that there are many stories suggesting close relationship between the divine ('gods") and humans or amazing ways in which the divine has been expressed through human acts/lives? Why should this imply that the life of Jesus is not unique? Most of those other stories are mostly unknown throughout the world while the Christian story has widespread appeal. Why didn't the ancient pagans, people who knew the mythical stories much better than we do, see Christianity as nothing more than a rehash of their own beliefs? I suggest it is because, despite similarities, there were radical differences that made Christianity far more appealing and fulfilling than the myths.0
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I can't "prove" it to anyone. You have to prove it to yourself.
Well, so what part of the story is true. I mean, I feel like there's plenty of evidence that Christ was man, and that he spoke publicly about his beliefs, and had followers.
Immaculate conception and reserrection (sp?) are open to debate0 -
Hercules and Horus are mythical stories. The story of Jesus Christ is not.
??????????????
I am not taking the position that jesus never existed, but, just as a reference, there is more historical evidence for the events that occurred in Homer's Iliad, written over a thousand years earlier, than there is for any historical, living jesus.
Whether by accident or design, the fact is that the supposed life and ministry of jesus occurred in a time and place about which there is remarkably little direct archaeological or literary evidence, compared to the eras that came before or after.
I am not saying this to try and minimize or belittle christianity or christian history in any way. But, if you want to have a serious discussion, you can't use "christian" beliefs to "prove" the existence of jesus.0 -
The ancient Greek/Roman (can't remember which story wen with wich at the moment) stories were just as true for them as the Jesus stories are to Christians. I fully expect that someday the Jesus stories will be considered mythology the same as the stories of Hercules, Zeus, etc are today.
Yep. And in that future time all the followers of the Jedi religion will claim proof for Darth Vaders existence with "There's too much we know about Anakin Skywalker for it all to be made up!"0 -
I can't "prove" it to anyone. You have to prove it to yourself.
A good book is Lee Strobel's The Case For Christ.
Draw your own conclusions based upon the evidence.
I'm getting ready to read that. I'm excited! 0 -
They think that the stories of Hercules was based on an actual athenian soldier. Almost every worldwide myth has some basis in fact. The ancient city of the Hindu where the gods supposedly lived was thought to be a myth, and we now know it's off the coast of Indian buried under the water. They know Greece existed. We know Troy existed. We know the Trojan war actually happened. Take that and ask your self if you believe that Achilles, one of the warriors there was actually immortal and invincible except for his ankle because his goddess mother dipped him in magic water? How about the voyage home? To believe that Jesus was God and had miraculous powers simply because he and certain places in the bible existed is tantamount to believing that on the way home from the Trojan War, Odysseus fought Cyclops, Sirens, Sorceresses, and Harpies.0
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From what I've heard, the anthropological theory is that new religion isnt original because the evangelicals are trying to make it more palpable for the "savages." Not sure, but that's the story I've heard.0
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The Epic of Gilgamesh has many parts that parallel the Bible including the Great Flood, the story of Adam and Eve, etc but was written thousands of years before Christ was reportedly born. Interesting.0
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The Epic of Gilgamesh has many parts that parallel the Bible including the Great Flood, the story of Adam and Eve, etc but was written thousands of years before Christ was reportedly born. Interesting.
The Old Testament was also written before Christ was born
Questions to those who say that Jesus never existed.....then why did we for so long call "BCE", "BC" or "Common Era" "anodomini" (the year of our LORD) Really? We divided history based off of a myth?0 -
We divided history based off of a myth?
Yes.0 -
The Epic of Gilgamesh has many parts that parallel the Bible including the Great Flood, the story of Adam and Eve, etc but was written thousands of years before Christ was reportedly born. Interesting.
The Old Testament was also written before Christ was born
And to address this: The Old Testament was written around 1500-1200 BC. The Epic of Gilgamesh was written around 2000 BC.0 -
All I've seen is a copycat story. There isn't much difference in jesus stories than those of many other man-god stories of mythology.I can't "prove" it to anyone. You have to prove it to yourself.
A good book is Lee Strobel's The Case For Christ.
Draw your own conclusions based upon the evidence.
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In face mythology USED to be a religion.The ancient Greek/Roman (can't remember which story wen with wich at the moment) stories were just as true for them as the Jesus stories are to Christians. I fully expect that someday the Jesus stories will be considered mythology the same as the stories of Hercules, Zeus, etc are today.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Maybe because they would be killed for not believing? That would be a good incentive. The Crusades proved that.C. S. Lewis, highly trained in the classics, used to use the same argument. He came to see that if there are parallels and similarities between Christian faith (a faith that affirms the real, historical entrance of God into human history), and mythological stories (that arose from deep human longings, experiences, hopes and fears), this confirms that Christianity answers to the universal longings of human nature. In other words, Christian faith does not appear as something "novel" or opposed to universal human desires and hopes but it precisely answers those longings. The difference, of course, is that in Christianity God actually does what the myths imagined. On the other hand, great caution should be exercised in making too hasty connections between ideas and stories that have superficial similarities. If you want a serious treatment of this issue I would recommend Ronald Nash's book, "The Gospel and the Greeks." He shows that many of the connections that are sometimes made between myths and Christianity (like Heracles) totally ignore the radically different world-views and cultures out of which these stories arose and that once you study the origins of the ideas/stories the similarities evaporate since what is meant by the story details is so dramatically different. A good example is to compare what the Hebrews meant by "resurrection" and what the Greeks and Romans meant. One could also point out the radical difference in definition of the term "God/god" as well. The Greek notion of the birth of "gods," their relationship with humans, their relationship to the material world (they were understood to be part of it), what it means to be half-human/half-god (just to mention things you mentioned) are so radically different from Christianity that it is, to be frank, entirely sloppy and unfair to the historical sources to lump them all together and claim that similarity implies origin (well-known logical fallacy). But back to my first point. Does it surprise you to find that there are stories across time and cultures about love? Courage? Justice/Injustice? Tragedy? Hope? Of course not. Why should it surprise us to find that there are many stories suggesting close relationship between the divine ('gods") and humans or amazing ways in which the divine has been expressed through human acts/lives? Why should this imply that the life of Jesus is not unique? Most of those other stories are mostly unknown throughout the world while the Christian story has widespread appeal. Why didn't the ancient pagans, people who knew the mythical stories much better than we do, see Christianity as nothing more than a rehash of their own beliefs? I suggest it is because, despite similarities, there were radical differences that made Christianity far more appealing and fulfilling than the myths.
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
The Old Testament was also written before Christ was born
Questions to those who say that Jesus never existed.....then why did we for so long call "BCE", "BC" or "Common Era" "anodomini" (the year of our LORD) Really? We divided history based off of a myth?
We divide history based on extreme differences in culture. Christianity was a freaking REVOLUTION, and the milestone of Christ's birth is a functional way to distinguish between ancient history and more modern times. While the story of Christ may or may not be myth, the influence of Christianity on history is completely factual.0 -
No the old testament was revised and written (along with new testament to make the bible) after christ was killed. Before that stories were orated down from generation to generation. And you know how that can go.The Epic of Gilgamesh has many parts that parallel the Bible including the Great Flood, the story of Adam and Eve, etc but was written thousands of years before Christ was reportedly born. Interesting.
The Old Testament was also written before Christ was born
Questions to those who say that Jesus never existed.....then why did we for so long call "BCE", "BC" or "Common Era" "anodomini" (the year of our LORD) Really? We divided history based off of a myth?
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
The Epic of Gilgamesh has many parts that parallel the Bible including the Great Flood, the story of Adam and Eve, etc but was written thousands of years before Christ was reportedly born. Interesting.
The Old Testament was also written before Christ was born
Questions to those who say that Jesus never existed.....then why did we for so long call "BCE", "BC" or "Common Era" "anodomini" (the year of our LORD) Really? We divided history based off of a myth?
I'm never surprised when people from millenia ago turn out to have made a mistake.
We don't know what year Christ may have been born, so how can we accurately know it's been 2011 years?
It's just a cultural way of keeping a calendar. Not everyone even uses it. And it's changed numerous times.
I am in no way disputing that there were followers of Christ, referred to in historic writings as Christians. The theory I've read is that it's a mistranslation of "nice people". I've read that who we refer to as Jesus Christ may have been an apocalyptic preacher named Yeshua Ben Yosef. One thing I know based simply on having a brain is that at the very least the dude was not blonde with blue eyes and a button nose.
So we don't know when he was born, when he died, what his name was or what he looked like. But everyone's so sure he exists and thinks we should base our lives on him. Sorry. Not for me.0 -
100% agreed
One thing I know based simply on having a brain is that at the very least the dude was not blonde with blue eyes and a button nose.So we don't know when he was born, when he died, what his name was or what he looked like. But everyone's so sure he exists and thinks we should base our lives on him. Sorry. Not for me.
and I can see why you would feel that way (really I just wanted to quote something else so I could show off my new found quoting skills....thanks Patti!)0 -
just wanted to quote something else so I could show off my new found quoting skills....thanks Patti!
I TAUGHT HER THOSE QUOTING SKILLS! Remember you learned them from an atheist!!
:laugh: :drinker: 0 -
That reminds me of a joke.
No the old testament was revised and written (along with new testament to make the bible) after christ was killed. Before that stories were orated down from generation to generation. And you know how that can go.The Epic of Gilgamesh has many parts that parallel the Bible including the Great Flood, the story of Adam and Eve, etc but was written thousands of years before Christ was reportedly born. Interesting.
The Old Testament was also written before Christ was born
Questions to those who say that Jesus never existed.....then why did we for so long call "BCE", "BC" or "Common Era" "anodomini" (the year of our LORD) Really? We divided history based off of a myth?
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An old monk was studying the Bible. He asked for access to the original texts so he could better learn from them. He went down into the catacombs and was down there for hours. Another monk became worried about him so he went down to see if he was OK. He found the old monk sitting and crying. "What's the matter brother?" he asked "Why are you crying?" The old monk exclaimed "It says CELEBRATE!"0 -
just wanted to quote something else so I could show off my new found quoting skills....thanks Patti!I TAUGHT HER THOSE QUOTING SKILLS!
Truth!0 -
just wanted to quote something else so I could show off my new found quoting skills....thanks Patti!
I TAUGHT HER THOSE QUOTING SKILLS! Remember you learned them from an atheist!! :laugh: :drinker:
lol....And I have absolutely no problem with that....Atheism isn't contagious :laugh: of course we could probably start a whole new debate about that 0 -
The Old Testament was also written before Christ was born
Questions to those who say that Jesus never existed.....then why did we for so long call "BCE", "BC" or "Common Era" "anodomini" (the year of our LORD) Really? We divided history based off of a myth?
We divide history based on extreme differences in culture. Christianity was a freaking REVOLUTION, and the milestone of Christ's birth is a functional way to distinguish between ancient history and more modern times. While the story of Christ may or may not be myth, the influence of Christianity on history is completely factual.
This makes since!0 -
And while true, it's quite ironic that we can dismiss "magical" events because we're not as naive as back then, yet people still have faith in a magical being even though there's really no logical way it can really be explained.While the story of Christ may or may not be myth, the influence of Christianity on history is completely factual.
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