God asking you to sacrifice your own child?

adrian_indy

This is a good example of how religion, belief in a higher power, and the supernatural are in some ways a accelerant of immorality. Because of the supernatural or "god" the butchering of the Caananites or the asked sacrifice of a child is given a free pass because it's god saying it! It is only because of the belief that the higher power is commanding things that people continue to condone this ludicrous behavior. You see it everyday with the modern jihadist. People go on and on about how athiests have done horrible things as well as if it were even comprable to the long and prestigous atrocities of just the catholic church itself, let alone all the other world religions. But the numbers themselves are meaningless since no modern atheist today would even think of condoning what the soviets did. The "contextual" argument or the philosophical "god is never wrong" only seems to apply to the atrocities commited by the agents of god.

People would be, and rightly so, aghast, if I came on these threads and said "Well, you really can't judge Polpot or the Soviets because you have to look at the wholesale slaughter of christians in the context of the times they lived in."

lovejoydavid

So we are going to see miracles and Jesus return in our time. Can't wait to see that!

I have no idea when it will happen. The point, for a Christian, is to be spiritually prepared, that is all. One cannot do that by assuming it won't happen.

And abortion...really? I find it strange that you would bring that into this since atheism doesn't equate pro-choice. Must be one of those strawmen arguments you were talking about.

Neither, actually, does Christian equate prolife, but the statisticians tell a different story. By vast majorities, making the argument legitimate. However, if you are, in fact, prolife, then it is a mistaken assumption on my part, and I apologize.

And yes, Christians have been great defenders of children, unless your priests just so happen to rape one, then it's time for the massive cover up.

That has been a great moral failing, and I can admit it. Can you do the same?

And last, and I'm not backing down from this, since you have stated that god never errs, and that we cannot be in judgement when god tells us to slaughter, no matter how fanciful your answer is, you are advocating that if certain conditions are met, you have no problem with genocide.

If this were OT times, and God showed up in power and told me it was the moral thing to do, I suppose? God, in Divine Command theory, is the very nature of Love and what is moral, and all goodness is expressed from His nature. As such, He has no moral obligations (what could enforce them on Him), but does not act contrary to His nature. Thus, all His actions are holy, moral, and correct. Christ has expressly stated, though, that in this era, that is not the Spirit we are of. Whatever those crazy butt Crusaders thought.

See, it worries me that you seem to think that you will see Jesus in your day,

I truly and honestly have no idea, but we are commanded to be ready (which means to have expended ourselves in love, filled ourselves with hope, and sought the fruits of the Spirit).

and that, I guess means we are in the end times. So when the good ole Christians get fired up and start the battle against the "anti-Christ", I tend to get a little worried since I know that unbelievers and heretics tend to be the first to burn.

Relax, we don't fight until He shows up, and as an unbeliever, that is never, yes? Until then we are quietly persecuted, so get your pitchfork, man! And really, as time does have an end (heat death of the universe), is not every time the end time?

lovejoydavid

This is a good example of how religion, belief in a higher power, and the supernatural are in some ways a accelerant of immorality. Because of the supernatural or "god" the butchering of the Caananites or the asked sacrifice of a child is given a free pass because it's god saying it! It is only because of the belief that the higher power is commanding things that people continue to condone this ludicrous behavior. You see it everyday with the modern jihadist. People go on and on about how athiests have done horrible things as well as if it were even comprable to the long and prestigous atrocities of just the catholic church itself, let alone all the other world religions. But the numbers themselves are meaningless since no modern atheist today would even think of condoning what the soviets did. The "contextual" argument or the philosophical "god is never wrong" only seems to apply to the atrocities commited by the agents of god.

People would be, and rightly so, aghast, if I came on these threads and said "Well, you really can't judge Polpot or the Soviets because you have to look at the wholesale slaughter of christians in the context of the times they lived in."

I only give 'passes', as you call them, to those that Scripture specifically stated were doing God's will. Give me an atrocity post OT, or one in the OT that God did not order, and we have a different story. Did you actually think I was agreeing with Thomas in our last exchange? That many posts, and we never got past that?

adrian_indy

So we are going to see miracles and Jesus return in our time. Can't wait to see that!

I have no idea when it will happen. The point, for a Christian, is to be spiritually prepared, that is all. One cannot do that by assuming it won't happen.

And abortion...really? I find it strange that you would bring that into this since atheism doesn't equate pro-choice. Must be one of those strawmen arguments you were talking about.

Neither, actually, does Christian equate prolife, but the statisticians tell a different story. By vast majorities, making the argument legitimate. However, if you are, in fact, prolife, then it is a mistaken assumption on my part, and I apologize.

And yes, Christians have been great defenders of children, unless your priests just so happen to rape one, then it's time for the massive cover up.

That has been a great moral failing, and I can admit it. Can you do the same?

And last, and I'm not backing down from this, since you have stated that god never errs, and that we cannot be in judgement when god tells us to slaughter, no matter how fanciful your answer is, you are advocating that if certain conditions are met, you have no problem with genocide.

If this were OT times, and God showed up in power and told me it was the moral thing to do, I suppose? God, in Divine Command theory, is the very nature of Love and what is moral, and all goodness is expressed from His nature. As such, He has no moral obligations (what could enforce them on Him), but does not act contrary to His nature. Thus, all His actions are holy, moral, and correct. Christ has expressly stated, though, that in this era, that is not the Spirit we are of. Whatever those crazy butt Crusaders thought.

See, it worries me that you seem to think that you will see Jesus in your day,

I truly and honestly have no idea, but we are commanded to be ready (which means to have expended ourselves in love, filled ourselves with hope, and sought the fruits of the Spirit).

and that, I guess means we are in the end times. So when the good ole Christians get fired up and start the battle against the "anti-Christ", I tend to get a little worried since I know that unbelievers and heretics tend to be the first to burn.

Relax, we don't fight until He shows up, and as an unbeliever, that is never, yes? Until then we are quietly persecuted, so get your pitchfork, man! And really, as time does have an end (heat death of the universe), is not every time the end time?

You keep saying that he is never going to show up so I should relax.....yeah I know. I pretty positive it's never going to happen. That isn't the point. The point is that once the majority is is convinced he has shown up, they fall in to line and do EXACTLY as they are told, as you have just pointed out. You won't be able to say know because you are sure he is God and God is never wrong.

And you are quitely being persecuted? By who? I keep hearing this, but it amazes me how the vast majority of americans, with 99% of the government aligned with their own religion, think that they are some how being persecuted.

adrian_indy

This is a good example of how religion, belief in a higher power, and the supernatural are in some ways a accelerant of immorality. Because of the supernatural or "god" the butchering of the Caananites or the asked sacrifice of a child is given a free pass because it's god saying it! It is only because of the belief that the higher power is commanding things that people continue to condone this ludicrous behavior. You see it everyday with the modern jihadist. People go on and on about how athiests have done horrible things as well as if it were even comprable to the long and prestigous atrocities of just the catholic church itself, let alone all the other world religions. But the numbers themselves are meaningless since no modern atheist today would even think of condoning what the soviets did. The "contextual" argument or the philosophical "god is never wrong" only seems to apply to the atrocities commited by the agents of god.

People would be, and rightly so, aghast, if I came on these threads and said "Well, you really can't judge Polpot or the Soviets because you have to look at the wholesale slaughter of christians in the context of the times they lived in."

I only give 'passes', as you call them, to those that Scripture specifically stated were doing God's will. Give me an atrocity post OT, or one in the OT that God did not order, and we have a different story. Did you actually think I was agreeing with Thomas in our last exchange? That many posts, and we never got past that?

Once again, that is the point I am making as an atheist. I don't believe there is a god. I just think humans convince other humans to do bad stuff to eachother using religion as an excuse. So you can see how when you say "Well, if God ordered it, it's ok!" gets me riled up. It's an admission that if you are convinced enough that someone is speaking for god, you have no problem with slaughter.

lovejoydavid

You keep saying that he is never going to show up so I should relax.....yeah I know. I pretty positive it's never going to happen. That isn't the point. The point is that once the majority is is convinced he has shown up, they fall in to line and do EXACTLY as they are told, as you have just pointed out. You won't be able to say know because you are sure he is God and God is never wrong.

And you are quitely being persecuted? By who? I keep hearing this, but it amazes me how the vast majority of americans, with 99% of the government aligned with their own religion, think that they are some how being persecuted.

I suppose, but given the description in Revelation, it is going to have to be pretty darn obvious it is Him. Most of the Christians I know are pretty happy the way things are, they are not going to knock themselves out to go serve anybody.

The persecution is a part of the end times events, and that was more of a reference to those than a specific claim about the present, adrian.

lovejoydavid

Once again, that is the point I am making as an atheist. I don't believe there is a god. I just think humans convince other humans to do bad stuff to eachother using religion as an excuse. So you can see how when you say "Well, if God ordered it, it's ok!" gets me riled up. It's an admission that if you are convinced enough that someone is speaking for god, you have no problem with slaughter.

Honestly, I am not going to take anyone's word for it. I give the bible a power I give to no actual man. In this world, God would have to show up Himself to convince me to harm anyone, or to justify the harm one man does to another. And, that is not the Christ I know in my heart. I have lived a life of peace, and as much generosity and grace as I can manage. Is there something that you have seen in my posting that would convince you otherwise, other than hypotheticals?

poisongirl6485

I'm sorry, but to say that Christians (which make up 80+ % of religious beliefs in this country alone) are actually persecuted is one of the most ridiculous assertations. Yeah, you're so persecuted because people want to keep religion out of government. C'mon now.

lovejoydavid

I'm sorry, but to say that Christians (which make up 80+ % of religious beliefs in this country alone) are actually persecuted is one of the most ridiculous assertations. Yeah, you're so persecuted because people want to keep religion out of government. C'mon now.

Now now, poison, as I stated to adrian, that was a reference to my previous (joking) claim about the nearness of the end times (persecution of the Church is part of the book of Rev). It was meant to be funny, but for some reason, no one in this thread believes I have a sense of humor!

poisongirl6485

I'm sorry, but to say that Christians (which make up 80+ % of religious beliefs in this country alone) are actually persecuted is one of the most ridiculous assertations. Yeah, you're so persecuted because people want to keep religion out of government. C'mon now.

Now now, poison, as I stated to adrian, that was a reference to my previous (joking) claim about the nearness of the end times (persecution of the Church is part of the book of Rev). It was meant to be funny, but for some reason, no one in this thread believes I have a sense of humor!

Ah. My mistake then. It's hard to read 'tone' sometimes on forums.

lovejoydavid

I'm sorry, but to say that Christians (which make up 80+ % of religious beliefs in this country alone) are actually persecuted is one of the most ridiculous assertations. Yeah, you're so persecuted because people want to keep religion out of government. C'mon now.

Now now, poison, as I stated to adrian, that was a reference to my previous (joking) claim about the nearness of the end times (persecution of the Church is part of the book of Rev). It was meant to be funny, but for some reason, no one in this thread believes I have a sense of humor!

Ah. My mistake then. It's hard to read 'tone' sometimes on forums.

The possibility remains that I do not, in fact, have a sense of humour.