Using Race in College Admissions

Bahet

There's nothing 'reverse' about it. What else do you call it when someone who has worked tirelessly to achieve the required standards and marks to get into medical school, for example, loses the place to someone with lower marks, who has not met the standards so well, or at all, because that person is of a different race?

I agree that inequality of opportunity must be addressed, but how is this scenario fair to the person who did the work and got the grades, or to the person whose preparation has been inadequate and is likely to struggle with the course of study? This was the scenario my sister faced in applying to medical school as an undergraduate (different system) and the drop-out rate among those given preferential admission on lower grades was sky-high. Surely it is better to offer, for example, a preparatory year to those whose circumstances are perceived to have held them back, in order to give them a chance to meet the same standards as other candidates are required to show?

My boyfriend works in a predominantly black suburb of Chicago and has issued like this all the time. In fact, a white co-worker of his was fired when he reported the black co-worker stealing. Assuming they worried that black co worker was going to sue if reprimanded.

Same with the New Haven firefighters, Supremem Court Case Ricci v. DeStefano. Several white firefighters and one hispanic were denied promotions though they tested higher than the minorities. None of the black firefighters tested high enough. "The lead plaintiff was Frank Ricci, who has been a firefighter at the New Haven station for 11 years. Ricci gave up a second job to have time to study for the test. Because he has dyslexia, he paid an acquaintance $1,000 to read his textbooks on to audiotapes. Ricci also made flashcards, took practice tests, worked with a study group, and participated in mock interviews. He placed 6th among 77 people who took the lieutenant's test."

It's sad but I think those who play the "race card" have brought on all of this crap. Race should NEVER play a role in school or the workplace-only performance and qualifications.

Exactly. I've seen it happen numerous times.

My hubby worked for a large auto company. He was passed over for promotion for a black woman who was moved from an entirely different department. She not only didn't know what she was doing, hubby's boss told him to help her because he knew that hubby could do the job.

When I was in college I wanted to intern with the accounting dept for Wayne County government (Detroit, MI). My dad worked there. My mom had worked there. My grandpa had been a county commissioner. I was a 19yo college junior wanting an internship for the summer. I had to go through the Detroit Youth Corp. I showed up for testing along with 5 or 6 black kids and 1 white guy. We had timed math tests that we weren't expected to finish. I finished them. We had a few other tests as well. I was always the first one done with the white guy in 2nd. When I was given my score it was 100% on everything. I was then told that they would pass it on to the reviewing board to give me my assignment.

About a week later I was told that my job would be picking up trash in an inner city park. I was stunned. I told them I wanted the accounting internship. They said they already put someone in that position and the park position paid $0.25/hr more (as if that made a difference.) I told them I'd have to think about it and then mentioned it to my dad.

It turned out a teenage mother of 2 with a GED was one of the black girls I tested with. She was given the accounting position. My dad went to his boss who went to the Youth Corp and informed them that this is an accounting department and they wanted the person with the best math skills. They said the black girl was that person. Dad's boss informed them that he knew they were lying. They finally admitted that 1 other person had done better (BS. I know the white guy did better too. I don't remember her score specifically but he scored a 98%. No one else was above a 92%.) then said that I'd already taken a position with the parks dept. Dad's boss said he wanted me transferred. I finally was assigned to the accounting dept.

I went to work every day with my dad. The black girl showed up late every day, left early every day, and took at least 10 extra minutes for lunch every day. More than a few times she fell asleep at her desk. I also ran into one of the black guys who was working in budgeting and the white guy. They put him in the mail room. He had been wanting an internship as well but the mail room didn't count so he didn't get his internship.

Funny Patti but I got a definite "You want health care? Get a job! No handouts for anyone. Yay for trickle down economics!" vibe from you. It's weird that you have no problem with affirmative action. It's just another handout.

Azdak

Affirmative action makes me extremely angry. No one should be given preference based on their race. Admissions should be 100% based on merit.

But not everyone is on equal playing ground yet.

In what way are the playing grounds unequal? All students in America get K-12 provided without having to pay tuition....we can never equalize the conditions in every school in America but NCLB has done a massive amount of good by requiring and measuring performance.....imho.

Interested to hear in what ways you see things as being unequal.

NCLB was designed to destroy the public school system in America. So far, it's working as planned.

LuckyLeprechaun

Affirmative action makes me extremely angry. No one should be given preference based on their race. Admissions should be 100% based on merit.

But not everyone is on equal playing ground yet.

In what way are the playing grounds unequal? All students in America get K-12 provided without having to pay tuition....we can never equalize the conditions in every school in America but NCLB has done a massive amount of good by requiring and measuring performance.....imho.

Interested to hear in what ways you see things as being unequal.

NCLB was designed to destroy the public school system in America. So far, it's working as planned.

Are you an educator?
Why is it a problem to destroy the broken system and hold them accountable for the results we are paying for?
So far, NCLB has improved the situations in all 3 schools I have worked in since implementation....

Bahet

NCLB is a crock. Good schools end up downgraded because you just can't keep improving forever. Kids are taught to the test instead of learning material. Last year my 5th grader had a math quiz. One of the questions was "Write .6 as a fraction." He wrote 3/5. He got it marked wrong. The teacher wanted him to write 6/10. Nevermind that there wasn't anything on there telling the kids not to reduce their answer. I questioned her about it and she said that if it was on the state test the answer would have been 6/10, not 3/5. I pointed out to her that on the state test it's multiple choice and if the answers are 4, 1/2, 6/10, and 10/6 it's obvious that he would have had the correct answer since he had to have that in order to reduce it in the first place. Nope. It was still marked wrong. He could have skipped the problem completely and gotten the same score.

_Timmeh_

Not only no, but hell no should race be considered. Sick and tired of coddling someone because of their skin color..

How is providing equal opportunity considered coddling?

coddle: to treat with extreme or excessive care or kindness

It's not equal when one is gaining an advantage based on skin color.

macpatti

coddle: to treat with extreme or excessive care or kindness

I don't find it to be extreme nor excessive.

It's not equal when one is gaining an advantage based on skin color.

Exactly. White people have gained an advantage based on color for far longer! Affirmative Action doesn't give an advantage. It uses a different set of qualifications to make up for the decades of disadvantage.

macpatti

Funny Patti but I got a definite "You want health care? Get a job! No handouts for anyone. Yay for trickle down economics!" vibe from you. It's weird that you have no problem with affirmative action. It's just another handout.

Well, then you got an inaccurate vibe. Social justice is important to me. Maybe you read that in my comments about those who abuse the system or those who want to occupy a piece of grass instead of being productive. I'm active in social justice and diversity issues where I work. Both issues I am passionate about.

LuckyLeprechaun

NCLB is a crock. Good schools end up downgraded because you just can't keep improving forever.

Are you an educator? No.

I worked at a school that had nearly topped out on STAR test scores. You can only get a maximum of 1000. We were at 971. Even when we held steady in that place, for two years in a row, we didn't get "downgraded", we maintained our place as 4th in California. Your information is not factual.

Your anecdote about a teacher grading unfairly is competely unrelated to NCLB.

macpatti

I beg to differ. My charter school where I taught in Oakland was 98% FRL. Our STAR test scores were #4 in the entire state of California.

Being poor doesn't equal bad test scores. Or, it doesn't have to. We did all of this in a non-air conditioned, old run down church. We didn't even have a computer in the entire school.

It's not just about the school and its resources. It's about generations of uneducated parents who cannot assist the children at home. I admire you because you are the kind of teacher I wish every inner city school had. Your success story is one I wish I heard more often. I'm in Houston, and even within the Catholic school system, I see a disparity between inner city schools and more affluent ones. More often than not here in Houston, the inner city schools' students are black and Hispanic.

Bahet

NCLB is a crock. Good schools end up downgraded because you just can't keep improving forever.

Are you an educator? No.

I worked at a school that had nearly topped out on STAR test scores. You can only get a maximum of 1000. We were at 971. Even when we held steady in that place, for two years in a row, we didn't get "downgraded", we maintained our place as 4th in California. Your information is not factual.

Your anecdote about a teacher grading unfairly is competely unrelated to NCLB.

Who cares if I'm not a teacher? I'm a parent with kids in public schools. That makes me far more concerned than some random teacher who doesn't even have kids in school yet you seem to think that opinion would matter more for some reason. I've seen the differences since NCLB and they aren't good. I'm glad your school has benefitted. None of the ones my kids went to did. Instead they were too busy catering to the bottom stdents in some of those schools to bother helping the ones who were excelling to further that. They were promoting students who had no business being promoted and then the next year that teacher was teaching to bring that kid up instead of actually teaching new materials. If they weren't stuck helping the ones who should have been held back they were so busy teaching to the test that there was nothing else going on. I want my kids to learn, not just learn how to take a test.

adrian_indy

Complicated issue, not just with college admissions, but in the workforce and affirmative action as well. The black community has suffered in areas of equality of earning since this nations abolishment of slavery. After all this time we all have to wonder why. The racist will deem that the black people are inferior, or as a race lazy. Some my say that we have created a culture of laziness and a miniture communist community in our nation through an abused welfare program.

When it comes to college applicants being awarded points due to race, I am against it, but not because of the spirit of creating equal opportunities for minorities, but it's effectiveness. Again and again we see short-sighted politicians trying to give the public a quick fix in order to get re-elected. That is all affirmative action has become. We consistantly do things like send minorities to college and give them preferential treatment in education and the work force, but to me, it's like trying to build a house starting with the roof.

What we should have been doing all along is somehow figuring out to give large businesses and factories incentives to open up in poor neighborhooes to create middle class jobs. It would take a generation or two, but once you get a solid middle class foundation in the black community, their tax money would increase the quality of their pre-collegiate education systems and create enough wealth in their own households to send their own kids to college.

futiledevices

The original intent was straightforward: There is a pool of (usually minority) individuals who, because of years of discrimination, have not been given the equal opportunity for jobs, positions in university, etc. Institutions set up affirmative action programs to make proactive efforts to identify and recruit otherwise qualified applicants for these positions. Nothing I have ever read about the development of affirmative action suggests that it was ever meant to promote "unqualified" candidates into positions just based on a numbers game.

Again, in a situation where minimum academic qualifications have been met, and where an institution has decided that a diverse student population (diverse based on gender, race, socioeconomic status, geographic origin, etc). is in the best interests of both the institution and the student population, IMO it is completely appropriate to consider other factors beyond a narrow-defined, academic standard of "merit".

And if there are a limited number of positions available, with a high pool of qualified applicants, then I think it is difficult if not impossible for someone to claim they were "denied" a spot due to an "unqualified" minority. Chances are, that position was never "theirs" to begin with.

I agree with all of this!

Same here! You are exactly right.
POC don't have white privilege. Even if a white person is poor, they are still at a social advantage compared to non-whites with their same income, even living in the same housing complex or area.

_Timmeh_

coddle: to treat with extreme or excessive care or kindness

I don't find it to be extreme nor excessive.

It's not equal when one is gaining an advantage based on skin color.

Exactly. White people have gained an advantage based on color for far longer! Affirmative Action doesn't give an advantage. It uses a different set of qualifications to make up for the decades of disadvantage.

Sooooo the poor white kids are just S.O.L. ?

make up for the decades of disadvantage ....wow really just say that? So the current population of kids going to college..our kids your kids your neighbors kids that are white have to suffer because of past years treatment of non whites?
That's asinine. I'm sorry that happened but it's not up to us or my kids to make up for.

macpatti

make up for the decades of disadvantage ....wow really just say that? So the current population of kids going to college..our kids your kids your neighbors kids that are white have to suffer because of past years treatment of non whites?
That's asinine. I'm sorry that happened but it's not up to us or my kids to make up for.

It's right and just. Again, it's not taking a seat away from a white, qualified individual to "give" to an unqualified minority. I love how white people think "their" spots in colleges or "their" job was "taken away" by an unqualified minority.

Azdak

coddle: to treat with extreme or excessive care or kindness

I don't find it to be extreme nor excessive.

It's not equal when one is gaining an advantage based on skin color.

Exactly. White people have gained an advantage based on color for far longer! Affirmative Action doesn't give an advantage. It uses a different set of qualifications to make up for the decades of disadvantage.

Sooooo the poor white kids are just S.O.L. ?

make up for the decades of disadvantage ....wow really just say that? So the current population of kids going to college..our kids your kids your neighbors kids that are white have to suffer because of past years treatment of non whites?
That's asinine. I'm sorry that happened but it's not up to us or my kids to make up for.

What is asinine is the idea that "poor white kids have to suffer". Those "poor white kids" continue to have the same "affirmative action" program that they have always had.

It's called "being white".

There is a place for constructive and reasoned arguments for and against affirmative action. But for white people to complain that they are somehow disadvantaged in this country is beyond grotesque. It's like the fundamentalists complaining of the "war on christianity" in a country where 80%-90% of the citizens are christian.

I'll repeat it again: the intent of affirmative action is to provide opportunities for qualified individuals who have previously been denied access because of discrimination. It is designed not to act as a quota system, but to enlarge the pool of potential applicants. The good programs do not set "quotas". They set general goals and work proactively to find qualified applicants to enhance their workforces. Any deleterious effect on whites is only going to come from the fact that they no longer have the built-in advantage of being able to exclude entire groups of people from the competition.

The interesting thing is that many large corporations voluntarily follow different types of affirmative action programs. They do so not because of government regulation or lingering "white guilt". They do it for bottom-line reasons; because they know that a diverse workforce makes them more competitive and better able to respond to customers and business opportunities.

TheRoadDog

Equal rights in America, does not mean levelling the playing floor and making it possible for everyone to have the same opportuinities.

It means giving specail rights to percieved minorities. Don't like it, but can't do anything about it. Speaking out just gets me labeled as a homophobic , agnostic, racist.

As a middle-aged white man, there are very few programs that I can avail myself of.

Better get back to work. I need to generate income tax to fund the next " Save the poor unfortunate downtrodden..........." program.

macpatti

Equal rights in America should absolutely include making amends for past discrimination in our country. Think about it, it's only been about 2 generations since the beginning of the Civil Rights Movement.

TheRoadDog

Equal rights in America should absolutely include making amends for past discrimination in our country. Think about it, it's only been about 2 generations since the beginning of the Civil Rights Movement.

I find that argument to be bullsh*t. Why do I need to pay for the past generation's mistakes? I grew up in the same low income depressed neighborhoods. My parent's struggled on poverty level income and raised 5 kids.

I've never owned a slave.
I've never treated women as second class citizens.
I've never exploited the unfortunate.
I've always treated everyone as an individual.
I treat people based on their merit, not their skin color, beliefs or sexual orientation.

But, I'm supposed to feel guilty? I'm supposed to fund the very programs that I am unable to take advantage of?

Life can be hard. Wear a helmet.

I've come up on many obstacles in my life. I find a way around them or through them. I didn't put my hand out and feel entitled.

macpatti

What are your thoughts on financial aid then? Should people below a certain income be given money to attend school? Or should they just suck it up and put on their helmet and deal with life?

TheRoadDog

What are your thoughts on financial aid then? Should people below a certain income be given money to attend school? Or should they just suck it up and put on their helmet and deal with life?

My oldest is just finishing up her schooling and working 2 jobs to pay for it. I have my youngest daughter in college. Started in 2011. Straight A student. Receive one Scholarship based on merit. From my employer.

Since she skipped a grade and was only 17 when she started college, her mother and I took on most of the balance for the first year. She will apply for and, hopefully, receive student loans going forward from next year. We'll "suck it up" and deal with it as it comes along. My youngest is carrying 18 credits and working to help out. If I need to cash out some retirement to help, I will. If I need to pick up a second job, I will. We already know we will have to postpone retirement by about 5 years. I do this all gladly and without reservation. When we were filling out her FAFSA, there were no scholarships or grants for my daughters.

We won't be equal until we stop making a list of who is equal and who is not.

mikajoanow

NCLB is a crock. Good schools end up downgraded because you just can't keep improving forever. Kids are taught to the test instead of learning material. Last year my 5th grader had a math quiz. One of the questions was "Write .6 as a fraction." He wrote 3/5. He got it marked wrong. The teacher wanted him to write 6/10. Nevermind that there wasn't anything on there telling the kids not to reduce their answer. I questioned her about it and she said that if it was on the state test the answer would have been 6/10, not 3/5. I pointed out to her that on the state test it's multiple choice and if the answers are 4, 1/2, 6/10, and 10/6 it's obvious that he would have had the correct answer since he had to have that in order to reduce it in the first place. Nope. It was still marked wrong. He could have skipped the problem completely and gotten the same score.

I agree. Its been a complete mess. We are teaching our children to take tests.

mikajoanow

What are your thoughts on financial aid then? Should people below a certain income be given money to attend school? Or should they just suck it up and put on their helmet and deal with life?

My oldest is just finishing up her schooling and working 2 jobs to pay for it. I have my youngest daughter in college. Started in 2011. Straight A student. Receive one Scholarship based on merit. From my employer.

Since she skipped a grade and was only 17 when she started college, her mother and I took on most of the balance for the first year. She will apply for and, hopefully, receive student loans going forward from next year. We'll "suck it up" and deal with it as it comes along. My youngest is carrying 18 credits and working to help out. If I need to cash out some retirement to help, I will. If I need to pick up a second job, I will. We already know we will have to postpone retirement by about 5 years. I do this all gladly and without reservation. When we were filling out her FAFSA, there were no scholarships or grants for my daughters.

We won't be equal until we stop making a list of who is equal and who is not.

We are going through all of this right now and it totally blows.

macpatti

My oldest is just finishing up her schooling and working 2 jobs to pay for it. I have my youngest daughter in college. Started in 2011. Straight A student. Receive one Scholarship based on merit. From my employer.

Since she skipped a grade and was only 17 when she started college, her mother and I took on most of the balance for the first year. She will apply for and, hopefully, receive student loans going forward from next year. We'll "suck it up" and deal with it as it comes along. My youngest is carrying 18 credits and working to help out. If I need to cash out some retirement to help, I will. If I need to pick up a second job, I will. We already know we will have to postpone retirement by about 5 years. I do this all gladly and without reservation. When we were filling out her FAFSA, there were no scholarships or grants for my daughters.

We won't be equal until we stop making a list of who is equal and who is not.

I don't know that I saw the answer to my question. Do you support FAFSA for those who need it?

TheRoadDog

My oldest is just finishing up her schooling and working 2 jobs to pay for it. I have my youngest daughter in college. Started in 2011. Straight A student. Receive one Scholarship based on merit. From my employer.

Since she skipped a grade and was only 17 when she started college, her mother and I took on most of the balance for the first year. She will apply for and, hopefully, receive student loans going forward from next year. We'll "suck it up" and deal with it as it comes along. My youngest is carrying 18 credits and working to help out. If I need to cash out some retirement to help, I will. If I need to pick up a second job, I will. We already know we will have to postpone retirement by about 5 years. I do this all gladly and without reservation. When we were filling out her FAFSA, there were no scholarships or grants for my daughters.

We won't be equal until we stop making a list of who is equal and who is not.

I don't know that I saw the answer to my question. Do you support FAFSA for those who need it?

Let me be clearer then. If there is one Billion dollars in federal funds is to be distributed for college and 10 million people apply that year, then each person should get $100. Equal distribution.

Not $150 to the minority.
Not $0 to the white person with both parents still together.
Not an additional $75 because a person is gay.

Did that answer your question? I don't support FAFSA as it is currently being implemented.

macpatti

Let me be clearer then. If there is one Billion dollars in federal funds is to be distributed for college and 10 million people apply that year, then each person should get $100. Equal distribution.

Not $150 to the minority.
Not $0 to the white person with both parents still together.
Not an additional $75 because a person is gay.

Did that answer your question? I don't support FAFSA as it is currently being implemented.

Nope. I'm not talking about giving aid to minorities. I'm talking about giving it to anyone of any color, gender, gender identity, religion who qualifies as having a financial need.

_Timmeh_

coddle: to treat with extreme or excessive care or kindness

I don't find it to be extreme nor excessive.

It's not equal when one is gaining an advantage based on skin color.

Exactly. White people have gained an advantage based on color for far longer! Affirmative Action doesn't give an advantage. It uses a different set of qualifications to make up for the decades of disadvantage.

Sooooo the poor white kids are just S.O.L. ?

make up for the decades of disadvantage ....wow really just say that? So the current population of kids going to college..our kids your kids your neighbors kids that are white have to suffer because of past years treatment of non whites?
That's asinine. I'm sorry that happened but it's not up to us or my kids to make up for.

What is asinine is the idea that "poor white kids have to suffer". Those "poor white kids" continue to have the same "affirmative action" program that they have always had.

It's called "being white".

There is a place for constructive and reasoned arguments for and against affirmative action. But for white people to complain that they are somehow disadvantaged in this country is beyond grotesque. It's like the fundamentalists complaining of the "war on christianity" in a country where 80%-90% of the citizens are christian.

I'll repeat it again: the intent of affirmative action is to provide opportunities for qualified individuals who have previously been denied access because of discrimination. It is designed not to act as a quota system, but to enlarge the pool of potential applicants. The good programs do not set "quotas". They set general goals and work proactively to find qualified applicants to enhance their workforces. Any deleterious effect on whites is only going to come from the fact that they no longer have the built-in advantage of being able to exclude entire groups of people from the competition.

The interesting thing is that many large corporations voluntarily follow different types of affirmative action programs. They do so not because of government regulation or lingering "white guilt". They do it for bottom-line reasons; because they know that a diverse workforce makes them more competitive and better able to respond to customers and business opportunities.

Reverse discrimination...awesome.

Back in the early 80's my brother and his best friend were trying to get hired by Los Angeles County Fire. My brother spoke Spanish fluently having lived in Mexico as an exchange student. His friend was Mexican but barely spoke a word of Spanish.
Just so happened in the early 80's the county implemented this affirmative action B.S. They worked fire camps together, studied together, worked out together, were roommates thru the whole thing....my brother ended up scoring better than his friend. Guess who got the job and who didn't? Hey gotta have that name to fill a quota ya know.

castadiva

Does "being white" really give you so much of an advantage, if we're discussing real deprivation and poverty? Take this hypothetical; two kids, one white, one of some other ethnicity, both growing up in a broken home below the poverty line, with few adults educated beyond, 'say, High School, around as examples, attending a sub-standard school, where they're lucky to make it through the day alive, let alone better educated. If both miraculously rise above an impossible situation and do well enough to apply for college admission, in what way is it just that the kid who is not white should be treated more favourably than the kid who is white? He's conquered just as many obstacles as the other kid in his quest to better himself through education. Why should those struggles be treated as less, simply because he was born white?