Graphic Abortion Ad to Air During Superbowl.

CasperO

First off, mentioning that your view is "from the Catholic Church" does nothing. That is irrelevent to me. It's not my church.

You stated that ""An act directed towards protecting the mother that results in the death of the child may be justifiable"" Do you not understand that once in a while, in a very rare occasion, the abortion itself may be "An act directed towards protecting the mother that results in the death of the child"?

BrettPGH

""A direct act of abortion, it seems to me, is not justifiable. An act directed towards protecting the mother that results in the death of the child may be justifiable.""

SO - "Abortion" is never Ok. But "Clinical removal of an embryo that will end a dangerous pregnancy" is Okie?

I can't believe that's what you got out of my explanation from the Catholic church. The question was regarding the uncommon situation where a woman is told that she would die if she carried a baby full term and delivered. It is not morally wrong to save one's own life. Just as I gave the analogy of my shooting someone who I thought was endangering the life of my child.

Patti, and this is just me asking because I'm curious, I didn't think that was the Catholic churches position? I thought they opposed it in all circumstances, regardless of the condition of the mother.

Didn't they recently excommunicate a nun for allowing an abortion who only ok'd it because it saved the life of the mother?

macpatti

Patti, and this is just me asking because I'm curious, I didn't think that was the Catholic churches position? I thought they opposed it in all circumstances, regardless of the condition of the mother.

This is, as far as I know, the Catholoic church's position.

Didn't they recently excommunicate a nun for allowing an abortion who only ok'd it because it saved the life of the mother?

Hadn't heard, but I'm curious, so I'll go look for the story. I'll also consult with the Catholic morality theologians I know here. They may know the story.

ETA: Found the story. I've sent it over to the theologian here who teaches morality. I'll let you know what he says.

macpatti

First off, mentioning that your view is "from the Catholic Church" does nothing. That is irrelevent to me. It's not my church.

I realize that. I was just giving background to why I made the statement I did.

You stated that ""An act directed towards protecting the mother that results in the death of the child may be justifiable"" Do you not understand that once in a while, in a very rare occasion, the abortion itself may be "An act directed towards protecting the mother that results in the death of the child"?

I don't understand this?

CasperO

You stated that ""An act directed towards protecting the mother that results in the death of the child may be justifiable"" Do you not understand that once in a while, in a very rare occasion, the abortion itself may be "An act directed towards protecting the mother that results in the death of the child"?

I don't understand this?

Ok, let's try again.

You said that "An act directed towards protecting the mother that results in the death of the child may be justifiable".

Abortion is an act that results in the death of an unborn child. That's what it is,,, that's almost the dictionary definition.

Now let's imagine a circumstance where carrying the child will almost certainly kill the mother. I won't try to name one, I'm not an obstetrician.

In that case - the Abortion would be "An act directed towards protecting the mother" - "that results in the death of the child" - and you just said that that "may be justifiable".

macpatti

Now let's imagine a circumstance where carrying the child will almost certainly kill the mother. I won't try to name one, I'm not an obstetrician.

In that case - the Abortion would be "An act directed towards protecting the mother" - "that results in the death of the child" - and you just said that that "may be justifiable".

Yes. That is what I am saying.

CasperO

@macPatti When you say Pro-life do you mean "No abortion for any reason?"

Correct. I do not support abortion for any reason.

That's why I don't take you seriously.

I don't understand. What do you mean you don't take me seriously?

In supporting pro-life under any circumstances, you would sacrifice another person's life?

If a doctor tells a woman that both she and her baby will not survive the pregnancy, and knows that based on test results or whatever, then of course the woman has the right to make the choice. That's different than people who claim abortions are wrong unless it's due to rape or incest.

[/quote]


Untouched quote - no "Editing for brevity". This is what Dog and I both responded to earlier. You say no abortion, unless it's ok, then it's Ok.

TheRoadDog

Casper,
Macpatti doesn't realize that she contradicted herself or refuses to acknowledge it. Either way, further debate is fruitless.

macpatti

Casper,
Macpatti doesn't realize that she contradicted herself or refuses to acknowledge it. Either way, further debate is fruitless.

Ha! You guys are funny. Let me break it down like this: I personally do not support abortion of any kind. If I found myself pregnant and was told it was my life or the life of my baby, I would choose the baby. In my "personal" opinion, a mother should save the life of her child, even if it means risking hers. Period.

Now....The Catholic church's standpoint is different, in which it recognizes a mother wanting to save her own life.

Did that clear up the contradiction for you guys?

CasperO

Not at all. Never mind.

adrian_indy

If these idiots want to try and mess withe everyones head by showing some nasty abortion video or pics, then us pro-choicers should be able to televise a live birth of 10 lb big headed baby out of a small 110 lb woman...because it that's not disturbing at all. Why stop there? We could show some live footage of a lung cancer patient getting his chest cut open by a doctor as an anti-smoking campaign and right after that we could show Bob Dole's limp noodle before viagra. We need to change some minds out there, and I think the best way to do it is to air tasteless surgical videos for shock value. Why not? Hey, maybe we can make an anti-catholic video by showing a film of a 10 year old boy having his *kitten* stitched back together after some pedo priest who never went to jail tore him apart with his criminal perversion. Or maybe we could televise the autopsy of doctors murderd by pro-lifers. Hey, the conservatives could show footage of dead bodies from 9/11 for some pro war commerical, and the libs could show some dead arab children for an anti-war commercial.

I say we need to go all out with this premise of showing people "evil" during the superbowl.

BrettPGH

Casper,
Macpatti doesn't realize that she contradicted herself or refuses to acknowledge it. Either way, further debate is fruitless.

Ha! You guys are funny. Let me break it down like this: I personally do not support abortion of any kind. If I found myself pregnant and was told it was my life or the life of my baby, I would choose the baby. In my "personal" opinion, a mother should save the life of her child, even if it means risking hers. Period.

Now....The Catholic church's standpoint is different, in which it recognizes a mother wanting to save her own life.

Did that clear up the contradiction for you guys?

But it doesn't. Found the case I was referring to: http://www.forbes.com/sites/work-in-progress/2010/05/27/catholic-church-excommunicates-a-nun-who-approved-an-abortion/

macpatti

Didn't they recently excommunicate a nun for allowing an abortion who only ok'd it because it saved the life of the mother?

Brett~ Response from someone with whom I consulted:

I don’t know how much the bishop actually knew about the situation before he resorted to excommunication. My guess is that he gathered a good deal of information; information that is not included in this article. It may have been that the odds for survival were not what the nun presented (“near 100 percent”).

macpatti

Not at all. Never mind.

"It usually is"? Then why debate with me? It's also fruitless to think I'll change your mind, but why can't we still dialogue?

Why is it so hard to understand that I personally don't think a woman should have an abortion, even if it means losing her own life, but at the same time still explain the Catholic church's position?

CasperO

You didn't make that distinction clear Patti. You didn't say "My thought is XXXXX - The church's teaching is YYYYYYY". You just presented us with 2 different theories. Unclear, sorry.

macpatti

But it doesn't. Found the case I was referring to: http://www.forbes.com/sites/work-in-progress/2010/05/27/catholic-church-excommunicates-a-nun-who-approved-an-abortion/

I found it. I don't think I'm being clear and it's hard for me to do all this on a phone....I need my computer. But, let me try again:
The Church is not okay with a mother directly choosing to abort her baby. If the mother is in danger of dying and the doctor is able to perform a procedure to save her life that results indirectly in the death of the child, that can be justified. You cannot say, though, that it is morally okay to kill a baby to save a parent. The life of the child should be an object of moral protection just like the parent. It is one thing, for instance, to jump out of a house on fire even though someone else is left in the house and dies; it is another thing altogether to push someone in the fire so that I can escape. A mother can ask a doctor to try and save her life but she cannot ask the doctor to kill someone else so that she might live. Make sense?

adrian_indy

Remember when the moral majority was "outraged" over Janet Jackson's nipple slip? I love our country, land of the insane.

macpatti

You didn't make that distinction clear Patti. You didn't say "My thought is XXXXX - The church's teaching is YYYYYYY". You just presented us with 2 different theories. Unclear, sorry.

I realize I wasn't clear. I still don't think I was clear in the church's teachings, either. I've tried another approach in my last reply to Brett. Sorry, it's hard to type a lot when I'm on my phone and my thoughts aren't as clear as when I'm at a desk.

BrettPGH

Didn't they recently excommunicate a nun for allowing an abortion who only ok'd it because it saved the life of the mother?

Brett~ Response from someone with whom I consulted:

I don’t know how much the bishop actually knew about the situation before he resorted to excommunication. My guess is that he gathered a good deal of information; information that is not included in this article. It may have been that the odds for survival were not what the nun presented (“near 100 percent”).

So you don't know what the bishop knew but you're going to assume he knew things which make it right? Patti that's just rooting for your own team regardless of the outcome.

BrettPGH

You didn't make that distinction clear Patti. You didn't say "My thought is XXXXX - The church's teaching is YYYYYYY". You just presented us with 2 different theories. Unclear, sorry.

I realize I wasn't clear. I still don't think I was clear in the church's teachings, either. I've tried another approach in my last reply to Brett. Sorry, it's hard to type a lot when I'm on my phone and my thoughts aren't as clear as when I'm at a desk.

Oh Patti I'm sure no one minds if you wanna wait until you're on a PC. You can't really have a debate like this phone posting..

macpatti

So you don't know what the bishop knew but you're going to assume he knew things which make it right? Patti that's just rooting for your own team regardless of the outcome.

Here's his follow-up to me:
"But the hospital felt it could proceed because of an exception — called Directive 47 in the U.S. Catholic Church's ethical guidelines for health care providers — that allows, in some circumstance, procedures that could kill the fetus to save the mother. Sister Margaret McBride, who was an administrator at the hospital as well as its liaison to the diocese, gave her approval".

The issue seems to be that the nun thought an abortion would fall under this directive and she was mistaken. She publically did something in opposition to the teachings of the Church. As a professed “religious,” she took vows to live in service to the Church and she publically defied the Church’s teachings about morality in the context of a Catholic hospital. The bishop wanted to make sure this was understood to be a very serious act and excommunicated her. That means that she is being asked to publically renounce what she did, repent of it, and go to confession.

macpatti

So you don't know what the bishop knew but you're going to assume he knew things which make it right? Patti that's just rooting for your own team regardless of the outcome.

That was just his initial reply until he could review it further.

macpatti

Now let's imagine a circumstance where carrying the child will almost certainly kill the mother. I won't try to name one, I'm not an obstetrician.

In that case - the Abortion would be "An act directed towards protecting the mother" - "that results in the death of the child" - and you just said that that "may be justifiable".

Yes. That is what I am saying.

Wanting to clear this one up.........A procedure that is needed to save the life of the mother that inadvertantly kills the fetus is to what I was referring. I did not mean to imply an abortion itself to save the mother is okay.

TheRoadDog

I just worked it all out. Did you know that if you Right Click on "Debatable Debating" , that a screen pops up with a button that says "Leave Group"

Let me check it out. Click.

macpatti

I just worked it all out. Did you know that if you Right Click on "Debatable Debating" , that a screen pops up with a button that says "Leave Group"
Let me check it out. Click.

He couldn't just click it and leave? He had to make a dramatic exit? Debating isn't for everyone!

daffodilsoup

I don't see any issue with people seeing what happens during an abortion, but I think to show the ads during the Superbowl is unnecessary. But hey, you're free to throw away your money as you please, I suppose.

Though I find the ads in bad taste, can't say it would make me think twice about having an abortion if I ever did accidentally conceive. I know that I am not ready to be a parent, and I don't think it would be very fair to me or the eventual child to force me to fill that position. Abortion is not "murder".

macpatti

Though I find the ads in bad taste, can't say it would make me think twice about having an abortion if I ever did accidentally conceive. I know that I am not ready to be a parent, and I don't think it would be very fair to me or the eventual child to force me to fill that position. Abortion is not "murder".

I'm glad to see your input here, and I'm not attacking you personally. I do want to point out that there are many young people like yourself who feel abortion is an option if they ever accidentally conceive. That's something that makes me very sad. I realize we may not share the same religion, and you may not believe that abortion is murder, and that's fine. But it still breaks my heart that so many young people wouldn't even "think twice about having an abortion if they accidentally conceived".

daffodilsoup

Though I find the ads in bad taste, can't say it would make me think twice about having an abortion if I ever did accidentally conceive. I know that I am not ready to be a parent, and I don't think it would be very fair to me or the eventual child to force me to fill that position. Abortion is not "murder".

I'm glad to see your input here, and I'm not attacking you personally. I do want to point out that there are many young people like yourself who feel abortion is an option if they ever accidentally conceive. That's something that makes me very sad. I realize we may not share the same religion, and you may not believe that abortion is murder, and that's fine. But it still breaks my heart that so many young people wouldn't even "think twice about having an abortion if they accidentally conceived".

I don't take this as an attack - it's a debate, after all

I should preface this by saying that I am on birth control, and take the practice of safe sex very seriously because I know for a fact that I am not in a position to be a parent right now. When I say I wouldn't think twice about it, it's not that abortion is my first option - it's what I will turn to in the unlikely event that all my other precautions fail. While I personally don't use abortion as a form of birth control, I can't say I really take issue with people who do. I would rather those people have multiple abortions than have multiple children that they are not in a position to care for. I also don't think this is just true for young people - just because someone is married, of a certain age, etc. does not mean that they are necessarily prepared to take on the responsibility of raising a child.

But honestly if I were to take a pregnancy test one day and it came up positive, the first thing I would do would be to abort the pregnancy. Like I said, I am not in a position to care for a child at this point in my life, and I don't believe that it would be right to have a child just so it could be put up for adoption. It wouldn't be fair to the child, to the children of the world who are already up for adoption, and honestly, I'm just not willing to put my body through that trauma.

On a more political note, it bothers me that a man from Washington, who has never met me, believes he has the authority to tell me what I, an adult, can and cannot do with my own body, and what responsibilities I am expected to take on.

Bahet

Though I find the ads in bad taste, can't say it would make me think twice about having an abortion if I ever did accidentally conceive. I know that I am not ready to be a parent, and I don't think it would be very fair to me or the eventual child to force me to fill that position. Abortion is not "murder".

I'm glad to see your input here, and I'm not attacking you personally. I do want to point out that there are many young people like yourself who feel abortion is an option if they ever accidentally conceive. That's something that makes me very sad. I realize we may not share the same religion, and you may not believe that abortion is murder, and that's fine. But it still breaks my heart that so many young people wouldn't even "think twice about having an abortion if they accidentally conceived".

I don't take this as an attack - it's a debate, after all

I should preface this by saying that I am on birth control, and take the practice of safe sex very seriously because I know for a fact that I am not in a position to be a parent right now. When I say I wouldn't think twice about it, it's not that abortion is my first option - it's what I will turn to in the unlikely event that all my other precautions fail. While I personally don't use abortion as a form of birth control, I can't say I really take issue with people who do. I would rather those people have multiple abortions than have multiple children that they are not in a position to care for. I also don't think this is just true for young people - just because someone is married, of a certain age, etc. does not mean that they are necessarily prepared to take on the responsibility of raising a child.

But honestly if I were to take a pregnancy test one day and it came up positive, the first thing I would do would be to abort the pregnancy. Like I said, I am not in a position to care for a child at this point in my life, and I don't believe that it would be right to have a child just so it could be put up for adoption. It wouldn't be fair to the child, to the children of the world who are already up for adoption, and honestly, I'm just not willing to put my body through that trauma.

On a more political note, it bothers me that a man from Washington, who has never met me, believes he has the authority to tell me what I, an adult, can and cannot do with my own body, and what responsibilities I am expected to take on.

What Daffodil said. All of it. Except I'm not on BC (hubby had a vasectomy 10 years ago) and I'm not a "young person" anymore.

I also think that anyone who doesn't know what happens during an abortion is probably not intelligent enough to have and raise a child anyhow. No other surgery or procedure requires the person to be informed if they choose not to. I'm having a cyst removed in a month. I'm having a laparoscopy, hysteroscopy, and Nova-sure. My doctor gave me information on all of them and I did my own research. I've had 2 ultrasounds to check the cyst. No one forced me to view the ultrasounds. No one said I need to see a picture of a bloody 7cm cyst after it's been removed from someone else. No one said I need to have counselling before the surgery. All the talk of wanting to make sure the woman is informed is pure BS. If the goal is to make people as informed as possible about surgical procedures I'd have had to view an ultrasound and see photos of my procedure too. That's not their goal or motivation though. Their goal and motivation is to gross people out and make them change their minds. Otherwise they would show things in actual size too. But that's not shocking enough.

Bahet

If a woman is going to get a pap smear, then pro-lifers are not "heckling" at them. I'd think they'd know that.

Anecdotally, from a friend that works there, it doesn't matter - the tormenting is for everyone and it affects everyone, and who knows, maybe not in the ways they intended. For that reason, everyone can also get a security escort (fwiw, this is referring to the the huge building on 45S near UH).

I also understand that it doesn't really matter why someone is going in - they are protesting the organization and don't want these women associate with one that provides abortions (even if it's a very small percentage of all services).

Exactly, there is no way they would be able to tell which person was receiving which treatment. I did have a friend in TX who said she was heckled by protesters when she went to get birth control.

This kind of stigma would actually prevent women from seeking birth control making it more likely for them to get pregnant in the first place. Its one of those cut your nose to spite your face situations.

When I was in college I went to a clinic to get BCP. The hecklers didn't know that. They were most definitely heckling at me. The fact that I wasn't getting an abortion didn't make the rocks they threw at me hurt any less either.