A beautiful letter from mother to son.
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brittanyjeanxo
Posts: 1,831 Member
Dear Chase,
Whoever you are, whoever you become. You are loved. You are a miracle. You are our dream come true.
Chase, here is what would happen in our home if one day you tell your father and I that you are gay:
Our eyes would open wide.
And we would grab you and hold you tighter than you would be able to bear. And while we were holding you we would say a silent prayer that as little time as possible passed between the moment you knew you were gay and the moment you told us. And that you were never once afraid to tell us. And we would love you and ask you one million questions and then we would love you some more and finally, I would likely rush out to buy some rainbow t-shirts, honey, because you know mama likes to have an appropriate outfit for every occasion.
And I don't mean, Chase, that we would be tolerant of you and your sexuality. If our goal is to be tolerant of people who are different than we are, Chase, then we really are aiming quite low. Traffic jams are to be tolerated. People are to be celebrated. People, every person, Is Divine. And so there would be celebrating. Celebrating that you would be one step closer to matching your outsides with your insides, to being who you are. And there would be a teeny part of my heart that would leap at the realization that I would forever be the most important woman in your life. And then we would tell everyone. We would not concern ourselves too much with their reactions. There will always be party poopers, baby.
We just wanted you to know this, honey. We've worried that since we are Christians, and since we love The Bible so much, that there might come a day when you feel unclear about our feelings about this. Because there are a few parts in The Bible that discuss homosexuality as a sin. So let us be clear about how we feel, because we have spent years of research and prayer and discussion deciding.
Chase, we don't believe that homosexuality is a sin. Your parents are Christians who believe that the Bible is inspired by God, just like people are. And since the Bible is a living thing, it is in its very nature to evolve toward becoming more loving. We are to interact with it, to interpret it with our minds and hearts and souls. We are to consider the culture and time in which it was written and then consider the progress humanity's made since then. We believe that when those two things conflict, we are to consider the spirit of the law before the letter of the law. And to always choose mercy over judgment. Sometimes this means that we appear to be picking and choosing what we believe in the Bible. It's not really that, exactly, but it looks like that. And many will tell you that this approach to Christianity is scandalous and blasphemous. But the thing is, honey, that the only thing that's scandalous about this approach is admitting it out loud. The truth is that every Christian is a Christian who picks and chooses what to follow in the Bible, in one way or another.
Several years ago I was in a Bible study at church, and there was some talk about homosexuality being sinful, and I spoke up. I quoted Mother Teresa and said "When we judge people we have no time to love them." And I was immediately reprimanded for my blasphemy by a woman who reminded me of 1 Corinthians 6: 9-10 which says that none of the sexually immoral will inherit the kingdom of God and includes "homosexual offenders" on a list of those types of people.
But, I was very confused because this woman was speaking. In church. And she was also wearing a necklace. And I could see her hair, baby. She had no head covering. All of which are things that are sooooo totally against the Bible Rules. * And so I just assumed that she had decided not to follow the parts of the Bible that limited her particular freedoms, but to hold fast to the parts that limited other people's freedoms. I didn't point this out at the time baby, because she wasn't a bad person. People are doing the best they can, mostly. It's best not to embarrass people.
What I'm trying to say is that each Christian uses different criteria to decide what parts of the Bible to prioritize and demonstrate in their lives. Our criteria is that if it doesn't bring us closer to seeing humanity as one, as connected, if it turns our judgment outward instead of inward, if it doesn't help us become better lovers of God and others, if it distracts us from remembering what we are really supposed to be doing down here, which is finding God in every human being, serving each other before ourselves, feeding hungry people, comforting the sick and sad, giving up everything we have for others, laying down our lives for our friends... then we just assume we don't understand it yet, we put it on a shelf, and we move on. Because all I need to know is that I am reborn. And here's what I believe it means to be reborn:
The first time you're born, you identify the people in the room as your family. The second time you're born, you identify the whole world as your family. Christianity is not about joining a particular club, it's about waking up to the fact that we are all in the same club. Every last one of us. So avoid discussions about who's in and who's out at all costs. Everybody's in, baby. That's what makes it beautiful. And hard. If working out your faith is not beautiful and hard, find a new one to work out. And if spiritual teachers are encouraging you to fear anyone, watch them closely, honey. Raise your eyebrow and then your hand. Because the phrase repeated most often in that Bible they are quoting is Do Not Be Afraid. So when they tell you that gay people are a threat to marriage, honey, think hard.
I can only speak from my personal experience, but I've been married for nine years and barely any gay people have tried to break up my marriage. I say barely any because that Nate Berkus is a little shady. I am defenseless against his cuteness and eye for accessories and so he is always convincing me to buy beautiful trinkets with our grocery money. This drives your sweet father a bit nuts. So you might want to keep your eye on Berkus. But with the exception of him, I'm fairly certain that the only threats to my marriage are my pride and anger and plain old human wanderlust. Do not be afraid of people who seem different than you, baby. Different always turns out to be an illusion. Look hard.
Chase, God gave you the Bible, and He also gave you your heart and your mind and I believe He'd like you to use all three. It's a good system of checks and balances He designed. Prioritizing can still be hard, though. Jesus predicted that. So he gave us this story. A man approached Jesus and said that he was very confused by all of God's laws and directions and asked Jesus to break it down for him. He said, "What are the most important laws?" And Jesus said, "Love God with all your heart, mind and soul, and love others as yourself." When in doubt, Chase, measure all your decisions and beliefs against that. Make damn sure that you are offering others the same rights, courtesies, and respect that you expect for yourself. If you do that, you can't go wrong.
Chase, you are okay. You are a child of God. As is everyone else. There is nothing that you can become or do that will make God love you any more or any less. Nothing that you already are or will become is a surprise to God. Tomorrow has already been approved.
And so baby, your father and I have only one specific expectation of you. And that is that you celebrate others the way we celebrate you. That you remember, every day, every minute, that there is no one on God's Green Earth who deserves more or less respect than you do, My Love.
"He has shown you what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." - Michah 6:8
Love, Mama
P.S. We thought we should mention, honey, that if you're straight, that's okay too. I mean, it'd be a little anti-climactic now, honestly. But your father and I will deal.
P.P.S. As daddy read this essay, I watched his gorgeous face intensify. He teared up a little. Then he slammed the letter down on the kitchen table and said emphatically and without a touch of irony, "DAMN STRAIGHT."
Which, when you think about it honey, is really the funniest possible thing daddy could have said.
Love you Forever.
Whoever you are, whoever you become. You are loved. You are a miracle. You are our dream come true.
Chase, here is what would happen in our home if one day you tell your father and I that you are gay:
Our eyes would open wide.
And we would grab you and hold you tighter than you would be able to bear. And while we were holding you we would say a silent prayer that as little time as possible passed between the moment you knew you were gay and the moment you told us. And that you were never once afraid to tell us. And we would love you and ask you one million questions and then we would love you some more and finally, I would likely rush out to buy some rainbow t-shirts, honey, because you know mama likes to have an appropriate outfit for every occasion.
And I don't mean, Chase, that we would be tolerant of you and your sexuality. If our goal is to be tolerant of people who are different than we are, Chase, then we really are aiming quite low. Traffic jams are to be tolerated. People are to be celebrated. People, every person, Is Divine. And so there would be celebrating. Celebrating that you would be one step closer to matching your outsides with your insides, to being who you are. And there would be a teeny part of my heart that would leap at the realization that I would forever be the most important woman in your life. And then we would tell everyone. We would not concern ourselves too much with their reactions. There will always be party poopers, baby.
We just wanted you to know this, honey. We've worried that since we are Christians, and since we love The Bible so much, that there might come a day when you feel unclear about our feelings about this. Because there are a few parts in The Bible that discuss homosexuality as a sin. So let us be clear about how we feel, because we have spent years of research and prayer and discussion deciding.
Chase, we don't believe that homosexuality is a sin. Your parents are Christians who believe that the Bible is inspired by God, just like people are. And since the Bible is a living thing, it is in its very nature to evolve toward becoming more loving. We are to interact with it, to interpret it with our minds and hearts and souls. We are to consider the culture and time in which it was written and then consider the progress humanity's made since then. We believe that when those two things conflict, we are to consider the spirit of the law before the letter of the law. And to always choose mercy over judgment. Sometimes this means that we appear to be picking and choosing what we believe in the Bible. It's not really that, exactly, but it looks like that. And many will tell you that this approach to Christianity is scandalous and blasphemous. But the thing is, honey, that the only thing that's scandalous about this approach is admitting it out loud. The truth is that every Christian is a Christian who picks and chooses what to follow in the Bible, in one way or another.
Several years ago I was in a Bible study at church, and there was some talk about homosexuality being sinful, and I spoke up. I quoted Mother Teresa and said "When we judge people we have no time to love them." And I was immediately reprimanded for my blasphemy by a woman who reminded me of 1 Corinthians 6: 9-10 which says that none of the sexually immoral will inherit the kingdom of God and includes "homosexual offenders" on a list of those types of people.
But, I was very confused because this woman was speaking. In church. And she was also wearing a necklace. And I could see her hair, baby. She had no head covering. All of which are things that are sooooo totally against the Bible Rules. * And so I just assumed that she had decided not to follow the parts of the Bible that limited her particular freedoms, but to hold fast to the parts that limited other people's freedoms. I didn't point this out at the time baby, because she wasn't a bad person. People are doing the best they can, mostly. It's best not to embarrass people.
What I'm trying to say is that each Christian uses different criteria to decide what parts of the Bible to prioritize and demonstrate in their lives. Our criteria is that if it doesn't bring us closer to seeing humanity as one, as connected, if it turns our judgment outward instead of inward, if it doesn't help us become better lovers of God and others, if it distracts us from remembering what we are really supposed to be doing down here, which is finding God in every human being, serving each other before ourselves, feeding hungry people, comforting the sick and sad, giving up everything we have for others, laying down our lives for our friends... then we just assume we don't understand it yet, we put it on a shelf, and we move on. Because all I need to know is that I am reborn. And here's what I believe it means to be reborn:
The first time you're born, you identify the people in the room as your family. The second time you're born, you identify the whole world as your family. Christianity is not about joining a particular club, it's about waking up to the fact that we are all in the same club. Every last one of us. So avoid discussions about who's in and who's out at all costs. Everybody's in, baby. That's what makes it beautiful. And hard. If working out your faith is not beautiful and hard, find a new one to work out. And if spiritual teachers are encouraging you to fear anyone, watch them closely, honey. Raise your eyebrow and then your hand. Because the phrase repeated most often in that Bible they are quoting is Do Not Be Afraid. So when they tell you that gay people are a threat to marriage, honey, think hard.
I can only speak from my personal experience, but I've been married for nine years and barely any gay people have tried to break up my marriage. I say barely any because that Nate Berkus is a little shady. I am defenseless against his cuteness and eye for accessories and so he is always convincing me to buy beautiful trinkets with our grocery money. This drives your sweet father a bit nuts. So you might want to keep your eye on Berkus. But with the exception of him, I'm fairly certain that the only threats to my marriage are my pride and anger and plain old human wanderlust. Do not be afraid of people who seem different than you, baby. Different always turns out to be an illusion. Look hard.
Chase, God gave you the Bible, and He also gave you your heart and your mind and I believe He'd like you to use all three. It's a good system of checks and balances He designed. Prioritizing can still be hard, though. Jesus predicted that. So he gave us this story. A man approached Jesus and said that he was very confused by all of God's laws and directions and asked Jesus to break it down for him. He said, "What are the most important laws?" And Jesus said, "Love God with all your heart, mind and soul, and love others as yourself." When in doubt, Chase, measure all your decisions and beliefs against that. Make damn sure that you are offering others the same rights, courtesies, and respect that you expect for yourself. If you do that, you can't go wrong.
Chase, you are okay. You are a child of God. As is everyone else. There is nothing that you can become or do that will make God love you any more or any less. Nothing that you already are or will become is a surprise to God. Tomorrow has already been approved.
And so baby, your father and I have only one specific expectation of you. And that is that you celebrate others the way we celebrate you. That you remember, every day, every minute, that there is no one on God's Green Earth who deserves more or less respect than you do, My Love.
"He has shown you what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." - Michah 6:8
Love, Mama
P.S. We thought we should mention, honey, that if you're straight, that's okay too. I mean, it'd be a little anti-climactic now, honestly. But your father and I will deal.
P.P.S. As daddy read this essay, I watched his gorgeous face intensify. He teared up a little. Then he slammed the letter down on the kitchen table and said emphatically and without a touch of irony, "DAMN STRAIGHT."
Which, when you think about it honey, is really the funniest possible thing daddy could have said.
Love you Forever.
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Replies
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that is amazing. i know the homosexual issue is a hard one for a lot of people. to hear a christian woman embrace her possible gay son, is wonderful. i think the generalized anti gay christian is just a stereotype. my father, who is not a practicing christian, but still holds those beliefs, actually changed his mind about gay marriage. i was so proud of him for that. we all have to remember ourselves when we go to judge another person.0
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What a fantastic letter!
I am fortunate to be part of an inclusive church and we have, in our congregation, people who are gay, straight, transgender and probably many other "labels". But we are all first and foremost people ... people who want to love God and are loved by God. I believe that God is in everyone, whether we acknowledge that or not, and the challenge of my Christian living is to recognise that, not always easy! Judgement (if it is going to happen) is the prerogative of God, we just need to get on with loving one another, however difficult that might sometimes be!
Just for context I am a straight, happily married (for 32yrs) woman
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The attitude of acceptance from these parents to the possibility of their son being gay is very admirable,
but has zero to do with christianity, imo.
Parents can be accepting of their children,
whether the parents are christian, muslim, atheist, jewish, whatever. Love is love,
and no holy book,
no gods,
no religion
is required to perform love.
Generally, christians have done much damage against allowing gay ppl to be accepted in mainstream society, for eons. But nice to hear of some who are NOT following their bible's advice on this matter, YAY!!!!!!!!!
:drinker:
PS
slightly off topic,
but, if this son is NOT gay, he will probably sit down and wonder,
what about himself caused his mom to write this letter..
I wonder if it might have been better handled, by some general family discussion, in which both parents state their disapproval of their religion's stance against homosexuality,
and how they themselves are NOT typical christians and DO embrace gay ppl as fully valuable and acceptable ppl, and how they believe gay ppl should be embraced by their religion, and how if their children ever were gay, they'd be cool with it,
perhaps by discussing some family who DID reject their gay child's lifestyle, and how they disapprove of handling it in that way, and how they would NOT be like those ppl, etc,
etc etc.
but, if this son IS gay, he will much appreciate the letter. Still, loved the tone of acceptance in this letter, wish more christians WERE like this mother.0 -
I think this has everything to do with Christianity, in that it is saying that some Christians do not read and understand the very book they site as the reason to reject homosexual people. It is trying to break the oft-repeated stereotype that "Christians think homosexuality is a sin and hate homosexuals"
This mother understands the Christian teaching of Jesus, rather than siting the Old Testament verses that prejudiced individuals usually quote to defend their biased opinions. She is saying that she rejects orthodox Christian values in favour of love.
Yes, anyone can do that, of course, it would be stupid to claim otherwise, but the Bible probably has little or no influence on their decision in the way it does on these parents.
I agree the hypothetical "situation" possibly could be handled better, but I think it's not really a story about that! You could say this is a modern parable actually
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I think this has everything to do with Christianity, in that it is saying that some Christians do not read and understand the very book they site as the reason to reject homosexual people. It is trying to break the oft-repeated stereotype that "Christians think homosexuality is a sin and hate homosexuals"
This mother understands the Christian teaching of Jesus, rather than siting the Old Testament verses that prejudiced individuals usually quote to defend their biased opinions. She is saying that she rejects orthodox Christian values in favour of love.
Yes, anyone can do that, of course, it would be stupid to claim otherwise, but the Bible probably has little or no influence on their decision in the way it does on these parents.
I agree the hypothetical "situation" possibly could be handled better, but I think it's not really a story about that! You could say this is a modern parable actually
The bible clearly states that homosexuality is an abomination against the lord,
and Jesus himself said over 100 times the Old Testament should be followed to the letter. (and even refers to Noah's Ark story as if it really happened)
There are also several admonitions against being homosexual in the New Testament, as well.
But few christians really know much about the gods they worship really said or did in the bible.
Saying one is for gay rights cuz they are christian,
IS more proof,
that most christians do cherry-pick the parts of the bible that they do like,
and thus,
to some extent, 'create' the gods they want
by ignoring what the gods actually said (or supposedly said)
in the bible.
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. It is trying to break the oft-repeated stereotype that "Christians think homosexuality is a sin and hate homosexuals"
this is not a stereotype,
but an official christian doctrine in most christian churches.
certainly, there are some preachers who may have chosen to ignore the rules in the bible to strive to create more loving gods to adore,
but the christian gods are very much against homosexuality.
as are most of the gods.
sorry, it's a fact. There are over 50 references against homosexuality in the bible
IN BOTH O.T.
AND
THROUGHOUT THE NEW TESTAMENT..........
If the biblegods could see the future,
when they tapped those 40 dudes to write down their message,
it seems odd so so so many of the bible authors got the message "gay is okay" completely opposite.
I am only a mere mortal
and can not see the future,
yet
if i had a message,
i bet i could locate 40 ppl who would write down what i ask them to....or at least, not go opposite on what i want them to write down.
so it seems odd
that all powerful, all knowing gods,
who can supposedly see the future before you even do it,
would choose so so so many authors who went opposite on the "gay is okay" message.............odd.
also odd, that Jesus never spoke up against slavery, not a peep,
nor the selling and oppression of women, going on all around him........not a word.
but i digress.
anyway, like i said,
i celebrate hearing about christians who do NOT follow the bible! YAY!!!!!!
:bigsmile: :drinker:
and one can be a very very loving and accepting parent
without a bible,
without any gods.
Love and religion are two different things.
One can have either and not the other.
Why would anyone need a bible to love their children,(?)
or love anyone else for that matter?
BTW, re: Jesus---a loving example for this mother?
Jesus recommends killing (yes, killing) sassy children, i not only could not worship such a person, i would not even allow him to babysit MY kids........not my idea of loving parental example. shiver!!
plus, Jesus so so often disrespected his own mother so so often, almost every time he even saw her....
just gotta wonder about an adult male who still can't respect his mother....something is off there.0 -
You seem very angry!
I thought this was a discussion site.
I do not believe that everything reported in the Gospels and particularly what Jesus "said" can possibly all be accurate - it was written down at least 50 years after Jesus died, the people writing the Gospels did not follow him around with a notebook. I have difficulty remembering exact words that people say to me a matter of days later - how can 50 years later anyone be that accurate? And it will have come down through an oral tradition, which usually results in people adding and "embroidering" as it is retold. Also in the re-telling the writers are often trying to convey their own particular view or speak to a particular group of people.
It is not a case of "picking and choosing" but trying to discern the truth from so much historical interference and influence, including errors in translation, some deliberate, some not.
I believe that often the homosexuality sited is more about abusive relationships than the act itself.
Anyway, that's what I think, just my opinion. You, of course are entitled to yours. I am not going to argue with you over this ... just sayin'0 -
You seem very angry!
why?
because i disagree with your remark that being accepting of gays is "christian"??
where is an "angry" remark? even one?
Lol, we atheists do get this,
if we calmly point out,
the theist is wrong.
I'm not angry. I just think your remark is inaccurate. Calling me names is probably not a very adult level of reply,
instead,
attack some remark i have made which is inaccurate.
Point out where i am wrong, if you think i have said something which makes no sense to you. I'm happy to explain it further.I thought this was a discussion site.
so did i!
I had no idea
that my having another point of view
about whether or not the bible is loving example of how to treat gays,
would be seen as "angry"
rofl.
See, i thought discussion meant there could be more than one point of view
about whether or not
the biblegods are against gays.
cuz, i am calmly stating,
the biblegods are against being gay.
doesn't mean i am "angry" if i do not believe in your gods,
i just do not think your statement that the christianity is not against gay ppl as a doctrine, is accurate.
at all.0 -
I do not believe that everything reported in the Gospels and particularly what Jesus "said" can possibly all be accurate - it was written down at least 50 years after Jesus died, the people writing the Gospels did not follow him around with a notebook
YAY!! No one could worship such gods,
there is a lot of imoral ideas which are repeated
over and over by multiple authors
and contradicatory info in the bible.
so glad you do NOT believe it "all"
you might end up in jail if you DID follow all the crazy bible rules!!!
HOW DO YOU DECIDE WHICH PARTS ARE "TRUE"???????
you probably do what all christians do
when confronted with what is actually IN the bible
the parts you "like":bigsmile:
are "true"!
and the parts you do not "like":sick:
are NOT "true".
SIMPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:bigsmile: :drinker: :laugh:
This is called "cherry picking". Anyone who ever did read the entire bible, the bulk of which is ghastly and immoral story, one after the other,
WOULD have to find some way to dismiss huge portions of the bible..
so basically,
for the most part,
you are also following your own inner moral code,
rejecting ideas in the bible, like selling your daughters, slaughtering adulterers, stoning gays or those who work on sunday,
are immoral ideas.
btw, most christians believe the bible authors were chosen by god to write down his message, hand picked by god, so the bible is "divinely inspired".
but you see the bible as just the work of humans, then, is that right?
It seems odd
that almost all of the bible authors
would go OPPOSITE with so manymany bible authors
ALL suffering the exact same "error in translation"...............odd.
very odd.
NOt a one of them got the "gay is okay" message down correctly...........not even one of them.0 -
I believe that often the homosexuality sited is more about abusive relationships than the act itself.
NO, sorry, but you are wrong. The biblegods are not much against abusive relationships,
and are even "for" sexual slavery of minors, rape and selling women, and multiple women are belittled, raped, murdered, etc, throughout the bible,
sometimes on gods order,
and sometimes, gods just condone it.
and sometimes, the biblegods reward such behavior..
I can certainly understand how what is considered moral to humans
changes over time,
but,
wouldn't a perfect GOD'S MORALITY *always* be right? Would a god's morality ever change over time,
the way human morality does?
The biblegods are not much against abusive relationships in general......NOT a big topic of concern at all.
For example, Moses, that bible 'hero',
was ordered by the biblegods to keep any virgins they found as prizes to do what they wanted to,
(after Moses and his pals had slaughtered all the men)
some of which would have been minors.....
but to kill any women who was pregnant or had been with a man. (biblegods were not really much into protecting fetuses the way republicans think).
Lotta emphasis on virginity by obviously insecure males...sad.
but i digress.
I don't understand your remark, are you of the impression
that gay relationships are "abusive"??
Biblegods don't say, "Ey, if you are gay, AND abusing your mate, well, knock that crap off"
no,
he said if you are gay, you are disgusting and will burn in hell.
period.
Even if you are a gay person who is very loving to their mate, you are going to hell.
but, at any rate, the biblegods are against being gay,
this is just a fact,
not an "opinion".
READ THAT BIBLE!!! Learn about the gods you worship. I highly recommend that all christians should read the bible. NOT just the snippets you hear at church, the rest of the bible........
or, as in one of the dozens of admonitions against being gay in the New Testament,
they are against any male even being "effeminate" even if one is not gay, rofl.0 -
:yawn:0
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:yawn:
this is a slightly insulting reply to my very calm, very rational points i made,
and several very simple questions i've asked you.........
but posting yawning icons for a reply
on a thread you had joined in on,
when you are asked a question,
it IS less insulting than saying my very calm reply is "very angry".
I have asked you several very easy simple questions,
none of which you answered,
not a one.
??
Oh, see, i thought this group was for haivng discussions,
and that everyone here
could post their viewpoints, (so long as they are not rude, like calling someone "very angry" for no apparent reason, etc)
even if they don't support 'your opinion' that that bible is not against gays,:blushing:
when in fact,
the New Testament and the Old Testament ARE both very against gays.
Mumma, if you are not interested in discussions on various viewpoints on religion
if you do find calm, rational, reasonable discussions about religion boring
why would you join a group
for discussing various viewpoints
on religion????
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sorry, but now,
it sort of feels like this now:
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Well from here, it kinda feels like you're just shouting at me. And I can do without that, thanks.
I'm sorry if I got it wrong and you're not angry - it just seemed like that from the way it came over.
You got me! I don't feel there's any point in my even trying to answer your questions - I don't presume to have all the answers, and it's not clear to me from what you say, what you think Christians should do - if we follow what you state is the Bible's teaching - that's wrong, if we think about it and try to analyse and create a faith that is relevant to us today, that is wrong too - clearly you know everything and it's ok for you to "throw your weight around" here regardless of how that might make other people feel and how it comes over. Hope it makes you feel good.
This is the end of the discussion as far as I'm concerned.0 -
Mon 09/03/12 02:26 PM
Well from here, it kinda feels like you're just shouting at me. And I can do without that, thanks.
where do you see this?
which remark to you, felt like "shouting"??
which remarks seem "very angry" to you?
sorry if you feel this way. I am not angry,
i just think you are mistaken about the christian religion's stance on gay ppl.
that's all.
and i think some of your other remarks are also inaccurate, like that Jesus is great role model for how to raise kids,
or that the christian religion is against only the gay relationships which are abusive,(?but like i said, i do NOT understand what you meant there....at all)
and the other questions i asked you, which i'd have to go back to refind now, since you haven't answered any of them....like why anyone needs a bible to love their kids? as you seemed to suggest earlier. 0 -
Well from here, it kinda feels like you're just shouting at me. And I can do without that, thanks.
I'm sorry if I got it wrong and you're not angry - it just seemed like that from the way it came over.
You got me! I don't feel there's any point in my even trying to answer your questions - I don't presume to have all the answers, and it's not clear to me from what you say, what you think Christians should do - if we follow what you state is the Bible's teaching - that's wrong, if we think about it and try to analyse and create a faith that is relevant to us today, that is wrong too - clearly you know everything and it's ok for you to "throw your weight around" here regardless of how that might make other people feel and how it comes over. Hope it makes you feel good.
This is the end of the discussion as far as I'm concerned.
wow, wait a minute,
that seems uncalled for.:noway:
but, it IS milder than most christains act,
when asked to actually examine their beliefs, so you ARE acting less hateful than most christians do when it is pointed out they are wrong about what they thought their bible or church is for or against.
Christians never ever really have to defend their gods, or think about them, or even examine them........cuz everyone they know is also christian.
Although that has to be pleasant for you, to have views that everyone around you has,,
but, on the downside,
it does leave many christians unprepared to explain or even examine their beliefs..............
we atheists always have to explain why we think what we think.
or defend it, etc.:laugh:
how is my posting my opinion,
"throwing my weight around" ??? I thought all members here are on equal footing,
that any one of us has no more importance or clout than any another, right? so that remark doesn't even make sense to ME.
wha? Cmon, don't you think that is a lil over the top of a reply to someone(ME, the atheist) who has been basically polite and rational?? in a group designed for discussing religion??
that IS what this group is FOR, right?
aren't we ALL allowed to post our thoughts,
even if they do not match YOUR ideas??
without being seen as "throwing our weight around", "know it all", "very angry" and all the other snide remarks:noway: you're coming up with now, instead of just having nice, rational discussion...........
why are you resorting to rudeness? wha? It's more adult,
to attack my REMARKS, point out where i am mistaken,
instead of attacking the PERSON.<
that is kinda grade-school level of debate.........see, i think resorting to name calling or snide remarks doesn't reeeeeeeally work once you are adult......
but, since i DO answer questions,
since you ask
I am for gay rights, i am.:drinker: :bigsmile:
BUT
Saying the christian bible,
or the bulk of christian churches are loving examples of how to treat gays,
is just not true.
sorry,
it's a fact. NOt that an individual christian, such as yourself, can not choose to ignore the bible rules:drinker: :flowerforyou: :bigsmile: ,
and love gay ppl as equals,
but, AS AN INSTITUTION
and per the bible,
christianity is AGAINST gay ppl.
If you do want to create your OWN god to worship,
one that IS for loving all types of people,
GO FOR IT!!
but, that is NOT the gods in the bible. Those gods are VERY MUCH against loving gay ppl, in boht the OT, and in the NT,
and THOSE gods recommend stoning them to death. I feel you do have a right to know that.
if that is "shouting" (?) i am sorry. I am not angry,
i am simply,
calmly,
telling you what is in the bible,
and what is in christian doctrine. I feel, if you are choosing a named god,
that you DO have a right to know what that god is actually for/against.
or,
you CAN do what most christians do,
and just "create" your own god. but it seems only fair to admit, that that IS what you are doing, is "creating" your own gods...which is fine,
as imo, all the gods were created by man,
not the other way around.
you ARE creating gods to worship,
if you want to insist that the christian gods are "for" accepting gay ppl.......(there's actually a pretty long list of things you might not be aware of about your gods,
if you were somehow unaware your gods are very veyr much against gay rights).0 -
To Mumma,
since you asked,
here's what you could consider doing.
become an atheist.:drinker:
Then, you are free to follow your OWN inner moral code,
which you ARE already doing anyway, :bigsmile: since you do NOT follow all of the rules of religion your parents gave you anyway.
OR
Become a deist.:drinker: A deist believes in "a" god, but not in any of the named gods, and follows no particular theology or church. Just has "a" god.
Then, you are free to 'create' your very own god,
which you ARE already doing anyway, :bigsmile: since you do NOT believe the parts of the biblegods that you personally dislike.
might be easier,
than trying to get the god you WANT to come out of the religion you inherited at birth.........im just sayin.
but, that's cool you feel you do know what gods want...
Mumma, you strike me as somoene who DOES know right from wrong, ( your rude replies aside)
so i think you might be happier :bigsmile:
with "a" god
or no god, (SINCE YOU ASKED)
instead of the current (fairly hateful) gods you were assigned at birth.
Or, explore other gods,(there's LOTS of other gods to choose from)
til you find one that DOES match what YOU think a god should be like!!!0
