Personal messages

adrian_indy

Yesterday I wrote an opinion about statements made by a christian in the atheist threads that she had justified murder, rape and genocide in some of our previous debates, but never used her name, just talked about the comments. I stand by this opinion and this opinion has been shared by many atheists, agnostics and christians. I understand that many on both sides do not concur with my paticular sarcastic debating style. I understand this. However, when this christian is taking what I have said and contacting me via personal message, it leads me to believe that as an atheist, I have no right to privacy of thought in an atheist forum thread since either a christian has joined this thread and is reading our groups comments or an agnostic or atheist friend of hers is sending her links to what I said.

Since I have never joined any of the bible thumper groups to troll their pages and harass their members with personal messages of what they had posted, I expect the same from this group. I leave all debate issues in the debate thread. I speak of debate and atheist issues in the atheist thread. My personal mail box and MFP page is for fitness and friendship. If I am contacted again via personal message by anyone not a moderator concerning these issues, I will report these people and see you booted from the groups.

I understand I am not every persons cup of tea and a lot of people wish I would be more polite. I on the other had wish more atheists and agnostics would grow a pair and call out anyone jutifying child sacrifice, war crimes, and be more forceful in doing it. People have the freedom of religion. Not the freedom from ridicule. You may feel about it any way you want, you are free too. But I view such tolerance of this stupidity as if a new person to the debate threads began using ethnic slurs, hate speech, or any other moronic kind of speech. I do not tolerate it and I will be strong, passionate, sarcastic and blatantly rude in my debates, as I am sure most would if some one entered these threads using the N-word.

These are my thoughts, these are my opinions. I will in the future try my hardest to respect both the atheist and debate forum rules. But this is who I am and who I will be for the forseeable future, and if the moderators of these threads have problems, contact me so we can speak of it further. For the people who like my stuff, thanks. For the people who don't, skip it. Or block me. Technology is wonderful. And whether you are christian, atheist, anostic or a wiccan, if you despise me for being rude, don't worry, I don't respect your tolerance of idiocy much either, so have fun patting yourself on the back for being PC.

mikajoanow

Not everyone is everyone else's cup of tea. Be who you are. I don't know why people feel the need to stalk groups that have nothing to do with them.

I personally do not join atheist groups anymore, they tend to be less about atheists getting to know each other and more about atheists *****ing about religion. When I was going through what I lovingly refer to as my angry atheist phase, they were great places to vent, but now I find no use for them because they're usually not what I would like them to be. Having said that, I don't think its my place to try to dictate other peoples behavior and if someone finds that type of dialogue useful in their life, more power to ya.

MikeSEA

I think it's probably a good lesson. Unless a group or forum is moderated pretty strictly, which the participants may or may not like, it shouldn't be treated as a safe haven of sorts. It isn't. It's really just a way to organize discussions based on topic, rather than organizing groups based on like-minded people.

Even if the stated intention is to actually group like-minded people, other people will still want to stir the pot. Unless you want to "play" with pot stirring folk, the best solution is either remove the post--again this may or may not go down well with the members--or just ignore them.

As far as people stalking other people through PMs...Well, while this website, like many if not most others, exists on a private server, it's really open to the public. if I didn't want people calling my house, I'd take steps to keep the number a little less public. I agree, though, stalking someone for no other reason than to hassle them based on what they said online in an open discussion is kind of in questionable taste. Those people should probably also be warned that there's nothing preventing someone from simply inserting their PMs into open discussion for the world to see.

There's nothing all that private about private messages apart from a shared mutual understanding that can be broken as desired.

Elizabeth_C34

Yesterday I wrote an opinion about statements made by a christian in the atheist threads that she had justified murder, rape and genocide in some of our previous debates, but never used her name, just talked about the comments.

Did you actually show these posts to prove your point or just state your interpretation of what she said?

However, when this christian is taking what I have said and contacting me via personal message, it leads me to believe that as an atheist, I have no right to privacy of thought in an atheist forum thread since either a christian has joined this thread and is reading our groups comments or an agnostic or atheist friend of hers is sending her links to what I said. Since I have never joined any of the bible thumper groups to troll their pages and harass their members with personal messages of what they had posted, I expect the same from this group. I leave all debate issues in the debate thread. I speak of debate and atheist issues in the atheist thread. My personal mail box and MFP page is for fitness and friendship. If I am contacted again via personal message by anyone not a moderator concerning these issues, I will report these people and see you booted from the groups.

Sorry to break it to you, but even a private "group" on MFP is open to the public. When you post anything on the internet, you open yourself up for stuff like this especially if what you say is controversial or can be construed that way. It's not cool that someone did this to you (if I saw this as a mod, I'd remove them from the group), however, you can't expect controversial statements to blow over without issue. You have no right to privacy of statements in a public forum, even one specifically geared toward a certain group. Same principle applies to other forms of free speech. While you are entitled to say what you want, you can't do so without consequence.

I understand I am not every persons cup of tea and a lot of people wish I would be more polite. I on the other had wish more atheists and agnostics would grow a pair and call out anyone justifying child sacrifice, war crimes, and be more forceful in doing it.

Would you notice if people did? It seems that you ignore a lot of the criticism of the zealots to support your view that all religion and faith is evil. You keep making generalizations based on extremists. That would be same as every Christian calling you a murdering amoral piece of garbage because Ted Bundy was an atheist too. The argument is invalid and illogical as Ted Bundy is obviously not a representative member of the atheist/agnostic community. (EDIT: I saw your reply to my other post in the other thread after I wrote this, so please disregard this point as it seems to be settled now.)

People have the freedom of religion. Not the freedom from ridicule. You may feel about it any way you want, you are free too. But I view such tolerance of this stupidity as if a new person to the debate threads began using ethnic slurs, hate speech, or any other moronic kind of speech. I do not tolerate it and I will be strong, passionate, sarcastic and blatantly rude in my debates, as I am sure most would if some one entered these threads using the N-word.

You should stand up to extreme religious zealots who advocate murder, hate crimes, and other evils. You should stand up to it with vigor and passion and even rage at times. You SHOULD NOT assume that every Christian subscribes to the same points of view.

These are my thoughts, these are my opinions. I will in the future try my hardest to respect both the atheist and debate forum rules. But this is who I am and who I will be for the forseeable future, and if the moderators of these threads have problems, contact me so we can speak of it further. For the people who like my stuff, thanks. For the people who don't, skip it. Or block me. Technology is wonderful. And whether you are christian, atheist, agnostic or a wiccan, if you despise me for being rude, don't worry, I don't respect your tolerance of idiocy much either, so have fun patting yourself on the back for being PC.

While I disagree with you, I still respect your opinions and welcome discussion at any time as long as you don't resort to calling me names or other ad hominid arguments.

adrian_indy

I don't know how to cut only parts of these quotes so I will try to respond to everyone one at once.

I know that there is no true privacy, but I wanted to bring it to everyones attention. I also took care of the problem myself by blocking the person.

As far as showing the posts where the comments were made, no I didn't. I can't rememver which 15 page thread they were on and couldn't find them.

I am fully aware that not every Christian is a zealot. That is why most of my MFP, FB and RL friends are in fact, people of faith. But if any of them try to convince me that the story of god commanding his Abraham to gut his own child or any other nonsense was ok because it was god, then we will have an argument. Feel free to keep that at your church, I won't be there protesting. But I will not stay silent or polite about it and really can't see how a person who didn't believe in this nonsense could.

As far as Ted Bundy being an atheist goes. No, a christian couldn't hold any atheist accountable for his crimes because no atheist I know would ever say, "Of course serial murder is bad, but......."and then make an attempt to excuse Bundy in some way. Religion uses god as a way to remove responsiblity from the individual because of some cosmic plan. You see this everyday. Now of course, most enlightened christians nowadays will see something horrible done by a christian and claim they weren't real christians or a false prophet, and a few have even made the leap of excusing the old testament as parables and hyperbole. But what you can't get any of them to excuse is the atrocities described in their man made, man written, man inspired bible. Suddenly war crimes like murdering children and raping young girls has to be viewed "in context".

Azdak

I've scanned the posts (after the OP), so I may be missing something, but I think one of the essential points made by the OP is that there is a difference between challenging someone in the open forum and extending that debate to personal messages.

In that regard, I feel the same as adrian_indy. This is my place to be a little less restrained and less "scientific" in the way I present my opinions. I fully expect that if I express a strong opinion or use stronger language, it is likely to provoke an equally strong response. Sometimes I use language expressly for that purpose.

All is fair in the public area, and I appreciate that we are allowed a lot more latitude in these discussion groups. But that's where it ends. Anyone who chooses to extend the debate on a private level will be, at best, ignored. I do this mostly for fun. My personal mailbox is reserved for fitness and health questions/issues--open to religious folks and atheists alike! (as well as conservatives, liberals, Dems, Repubs, etc).

BrettPGH

I think anyone having a personal disagreement with another member that goes beyond reasonable discussion needs to set that person to ignore. We can all set it so we don't have to see a single word from someone we don't want to hear from.

If you don't do that then you're equally as culpable in the fight. We're not all going to get along. But I never like it when somebody runs to a mod to tattle and solve their problems. They aren't your parents.

If you don't like what someone is saying, set them on ignore. There's no reason not to. And no excuse if you don't.

adrian_indy

I think anyone having a personal disagreement with another member that goes beyond reasonable discussion needs to set that person to ignore. We can all set it so we don't have to see a single word from someone we don't want to hear from.

If you don't do that then you're equally as culpable in the fight. We're not all going to get along. But I never like it when somebody runs to a mod to tattle and solve their problems. They aren't your parents.

If you don't like what someone is saying, set them on ignore. There's no reason not to. And no excuse if you don't.

That is precisely what I did, I set them to block. I have never blocked anyone before in my life, and I have had some wickedly heated debates, because I viewed it as running away. But truth be told, on MFP as in the real world, the way religious "tolerance" stands, a person can be considered polite when spouting off religious non-sense as long as they don't use Ka-Ka words. Then minute and atheist calls them out as evil harpies, the PC police get called. Sorry, I don't see using four letter words and vulgar language even in the same ball park as the level of rudeness it takes to justify the horrors in the bible. That being said, since society is still biased to protect this "persecuted" 90% of the population, I had no choice but to block them since I know the the person the same people who are spreading these opinions keep reporting me because I call them idiots.

The current way the rule system is set up, a person on any forum could legally and rightfully find a religioun in which they ate babies, describe to us how wonderful they taste, and if we dared call them a bad word, we would be the ones getting reported. It's crap, we all know it, and we need to aspire to, yes, be a polite society, but not at the risk of the truth or our real feelings.

macpatti

But I never like it when somebody runs to a mod to tattle and solve their problems

I would rather continue my debates/disagreements myself than run to a mod. I would also rather someone send me a PM than bash me in a public forum where I cannot defend myself, especially when they're misquoting what I've said or twising what I've said to better serve their anger/hatred. If someone does that, as long as it's not against forum rules, I'm likely to send a PM. Don't like that? Then block me, ignore me, and quit talking about me. I find it hilarious that someone would block me, ignore me, yet continue to talk about me.

Someone is publicly crying because I sent a PM asking not to be misquoted???

BrettPGH

You two don't like each other and can't seem to get along. So set each other to ignore and it's done. Deal?

macpatti

You two don't like each other and can't seem to get along. So set each other to ignore and it's done. Deal?

Deal. I've done that. And you won't see me quoting him, misquoting him, or speaking about him. That's all I'm asking in return.

MikeSEA

But I never like it when somebody runs to a mod to tattle and solve their problems

I would rather continue my debates/disagreements myself than run to a mod. I would also rather someone send me a PM than bash me in a public forum where I cannot defend myself, especially when they're misquoting what I've said or twising what I've said to better serve their anger/hatred. If someone does that, as long as it's not against forum rules, I'm likely to send a PM. Don't like that? Then block me, ignore me, and quit talking about me. I find it hilarious that someone would block me, ignore me, yet continue to talk about me.

Someone is publicly crying because I sent a PM asking not to be misquoted???

Ok...sooooo. I take it you are the person originally referenced? At least that's what I'm gathering from the last sentence. If I'm wrong, I do apologize.

Assuming I'm correct, though, the problem is that he wasn't bashing you. *You* weren't mentioned at all. Some person was mentioned, but no one other than the OP and you would have reason to think it was actually you. Maybe I'm wrong there too. Who knows? So in sense, because he's using a specific example to make something more general and didn't reference you, he wasn't talking about you, patti.

I find it interesting that you feel the need to dictate someone else's communication because it doesn't jive with your expectations.

mikajoanow

jeeez I wouldn't have even known who this was all about had the other person not just outed themselves.


Maybe I will have to go stalk the atheist forum to catch up on the whole story lol *popcorn*

macpatti

Assuming I'm correct, though, the problem is that he wasn't bashing you. *You* weren't mentioned at all. Some person was mentioned, but no one other than the OP and you would have reason to think it was actually you. Maybe I'm wrong there too. Who knows? So in sense, because he's using a specific example to make something more general and didn't reference you, he wasn't talking about you, patti.

Yes, he was.

I find it interesting that you feel the need to dictate someone else's communication because it doesn't jive with your expectations.

I can certainly speak up if I'm being misquoted. I'm sick of hearing that I've condoned, justified, supported child rape, murder, and genocide. Darn right I'll defend myself to those claims.

BrettPGH

Assuming I'm correct, though, the problem is that he wasn't bashing you. *You* weren't mentioned at all. Some person was mentioned, but no one other than the OP and you would have reason to think it was actually you. Maybe I'm wrong there too. Who knows? So in sense, because he's using a specific example to make something more general and didn't reference you, he wasn't talking about you, patti.

Yes, he was.

I find it interesting that you feel the need to dictate someone else's communication because it doesn't jive with your expectations.

I can certainly speak up if I'm being misquoted. I'm sick of hearing that I've condoned, justified, supported child rape, murder, and genocide. Darn right I'll defend myself to those claims.

So then it's a "no" to the whole "ignore each other" plan I just came up with?

macpatti

So then it's a "no" to the whole "ignore each other" plan I just came up with?

I'm ignorning him from now on! He's blocked and ignored!

MikeSEA

Yes, he was.

But how am I supposed to know that? Since I don't have access to the mailboxes for either one of you, I can't know you're being talked about. Hence he wasn't really talking about you in public, at least not in effect. He was definitely talking about someone, but until you said anything, he wasn't bashing you to the public at all. I'm not sure "bashing" is even the right word here.

I can certainly speak up if I'm being misquoted. I'm sick of hearing that I've condoned, justified, supported child rape, murder, and genocide. Darn right I'll defend myself to those claims.

You weren't quoted here...at all. No defense is required. At best you were casually referenced in a non-specific way.

To your point, yes you can speak up. All I said was that I find it interesting that you feel the need to dictate the communication of others, which has nothing to do with your own communication (i.e. your perceived need to defend yourself).

macpatti

To your point, yes you can speak up. All I said was that I find it interesting that you feel the need to dictate the communication of others, which has nothing to do with your own communication (i.e. your perceived need to defend yourself).

I get your point. I think you're just out of the loop on background with all of this. I'm cool and he and I have blocked and ignored each other.

Bahet

*popcorn*

ROFLMAO!

MikeSEA

To your point, yes you can speak up. All I said was that I find it interesting that you feel the need to dictate the communication of others, which has nothing to do with your own communication (i.e. your perceived need to defend yourself).

I get your point. I think you're just out of the loop on background with all of this. I'm cool and he and I have blocked and ignored each other.

Yes indeed. I am out of the loop....was, anyway. I think this actually kind of an interesting aspect of forums, and probably internet communication overall.

Tangent warning.

As participants it's probably inaccurate of us to assume that everyone has the same context for understanding discourse in these situations. Maybe someone was more in the loop than I and had absolutely no problem understanding what was going on. Since this is its own thread, even if another discussion is talked about in fairly vague ways, this should really be treated as its own topic, if only for ease of use. I guess that's my way of saying, "defend yourself over there, in other thread....where you're being addressed."

Changing directions slightly here.

I'm trying to decide what I might do when presented with the OP's situation. I guess I operate under the assumption that anyone who wants to move legitimate discussion (or defense as the case may be) to private messages, there must be a reason for doing so. Immediately, that person, and their communication becomes suspect. I have to assume they don't want their message public for...some reason. My knee-jerk response will always be to make that person's attempt at privacy, when I view it as unnecessary, more public.

To that end, I guess I would have simply copied out your message as it pertained to the other thread...in the other thread and left it there.

If someone is taking the discussion to a 1x1 venue with me because they don't want other people seeing what they write. Exposing them seems like a grand option. I'd just do it more explicitly. The conversation didn't start in private, there's no reason it should end there.

macpatti

I'm trying to decide what I might do when presented with the OP's situation. I guess I operate under the assumption that anyone who wants to move legitimate discussion (or defense as the case may be) to private messages, there must be a reason for doing so.

That would be a false assumption. I sent the PM because I'm not in the group where I was being discussed, so I couldn't have publicly defended myself. I'm all for my PM being publicly copied and pasted there, though!

macpatti

In fact, here is the PM I sent:

all she did was justiy child rape, murder, and genocide."

I can't remember what thread it was in, but she not only said it, but linked a right wing article stating that very fact. Sorry I can't remember which thread it was in. But she said it.

You are incorrect, Adrian. I NEVER justified child rape, murder, or genocide. In fact, there are numerous times I have claimed these actions to be deplorable. I'd appreciate your not misquoting me again. I'd very much appreciate you not discussing me at all.

MikeSEA

In fact, here is the PM I sent:

all she did was justiy child rape, murder, and genocide."

I can't remember what thread it was in, but she not only said it, but linked a right wing article stating that very fact. Sorry I can't remember which thread it was in. But she said it.

You are incorrect, Adrian. I NEVER justified child rape, murder, or genocide. In fact, there are numerous times I have claimed these actions to be deplorable. I'd appreciate your not misquoting me again. I'd very much appreciate you not discussing me at all.

The use of caps is a little emphatic or my tastes, but it's a style choice. I would say though that 1)The other thread seems a more appropriate place. If you're not a member, I assume that can easily be fixed. Yes? and 2) I thought you weren't speaking to him nor he to you?

macpatti

2) I thought you weren't speaking to him nor he to you?

We aren't now. This happened before his public cry for attention over my sending him a PM.

BrettPGH

Hey remember how a few minutes ago we almost had this settled? I know picking at the wound and watching it fester is fun, but since the end result here is going to be a slew of mod reports how about we actually drop this ONE topic as not to get the place shut down?

macpatti

Hey remember how a few minutes ago we almost had this settled? I know picking at the wound and watching it fester is fun, but since the end result here is going to be a slew of mod reports how about we actually drop this ONE topic as not to get the place shut down?

I was only answering direct questions. I didn't make this issue public, remember? I tried handling it in what I thought was the mature way. Okay. I'm out. Anyone is welcome to send me a PM!

MikeSEA

2) I thought you weren't speaking to him nor he to you?

We aren't now. This happened before his public cry for attention over my sending him a PM.

I'm actually a little tempted to bait you by asking if Jesus would really feel the need to refer to this thread as a public cry for attention in a mocking way as you've done or if he would ask that you turn the other cheek in that regard as you've already spoken up for yourself adequately, but it seems a little jerk-like, so I won't.

Instead, I'll suggest you've made your feelings on that point clear, and there appears to be no further need for clarification at this time.

adrian_indy

"First, yes you have. Your weak willed attempts to justify the horrific events talked about in the Old Testament and everything we had talked about were nothing but a justification. These are my opinions and I made no reference to your character. It is my opinion that fanatical religious folks and nationalists will go out of there way to never admit the wrong doings of their "god" or country. I never once made a malicious statement of you as a person and I stand by everything I have ever said.

Second, I have kept in MFP forum rules by not mentioning your name, therefore not harassing you. I referenced you "as the person i had debated because Lucky was obviously speaking of some of our previous debates. I did this so we could talk about it without putting your name out there and looking as if I was harrassing you.

Third, I have never sent you a personal message concerning the matter as it is against debate forum rules. I would appreciate you doing the same. "

I like how my reply was not given, this was it. So after being told not to contact me, what do I get?

"Ah, but your comments I quoted were not in the debate forum, thus no rules have been broken. I have reported you to Mike and Steve. Lucky can lead the donkey to water, but.......well, you get it. Just try refraining from speaking about me period."

So see. I tell her not to contact me.....and then she reports ME. This has been the reoccuring theme. Let the text speak for themselves. She martyrs her self as a victim, claims to be handling this in an adult fashion, and only gives half the story, and then once I tell her not to contact me.....reports me. I have already blocker her, so there is no point in continuing on. But I just wanted to put this out there so the people who assumed I was the "bully" have all the facts.

poisongirl6485

*Puts on mod hat*

3. All issues that arise between members during a debate should be resolved in the forum. Please do not attempt to continue an argument via private messages as this can easily turn into a claim of harassment. Additionally, please refrain from badmouthing any members you might disagree with on any other boards.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/403423-debatable-debating-forum-guidelines

I like everybody that has been active in this forum and do not want anyone to feel unwelcome. If you want to hash it out with another member over something that was previously discussed in the forums, then do it here. As we can see from this situation, this is a perfect example of why guideline #3 above was put in place.

macpatti

3. All issues that arise between members during a debate should be resolved in the forum. Please do not attempt to continue an argument via private messages as this can easily turn into a claim of harassment. Additionally, please refrain from badmouthing any members you might disagree with on any other boards.

Just to make this clear again, I did not PM about a debate that was going on in this group. I PM'd in reference to statements that were being made about me in another group and to other people. Not sure why this issue was ever posted in this group.

adrian_indy

3. All issues that arise between members during a debate should be resolved in the forum. Please do not attempt to continue an argument via private messages as this can easily turn into a claim of harassment. Additionally, please refrain from badmouthing any members you might disagree with on any other boards.

Just to make this clear again, I did not PM about a debate that was going on in this group. I PM'd in reference to statements that were being made about me in another group and to other people. Not sure why this issue was ever posted in this group.

Just to be clear, all comments made were in an ATHEIST forum about opinions made by you in debate forum. Your name was never mentioned. In fact, no one besides me and the person I was having the conversation with knew it was you cooments/beliefs in question. You have no business there.

And just to be clear, you again were not mentioned in this thread. I was simply stating my beliefs, opinions and wish not to be contacted via PM by anyone over these matters. Once again, you have interjected yourself into a debate where you were not mentioned.