Free will?
atomiclauren
Posts: 689 Member
I saw this earlier - I know it's a little snarky and you could insert any number of activities at the bottom but I'm curious about religious viewpoints on this or if anyone has better examples..
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Actually, just because God has a Will for everyone doesn't mean that there is no free will. Many choose to not seek out God's Will for their life (their free will to choose this action). Many seek out God's Will but don't shut up enough to listen or are too afraid to make the changes that are required to live that will. Few seek out and make the changes to do what God Wills them to do (Mother Theresa for example). Does that help clarify things?0
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I never really go in for "free will" as it's used religiously. Yes we have the option of doing a number of actions at any given moment. But at the end of our lives we'll have only ever made one set of choices. So "free will" is relative to time.
"Free will" as given to us by God is at best a cruel joke. What they're saying is that God gave us the option to not believe in him. Then punishes us if we take that option. It's unbelievably cruel.0 -
My church gets together and usually feed closes to 200 families during Thanksgiving. I figure there are probably at least 999 churches that do the same if not more. Free will lets good people feed 200,000 families each Thanksgiving.
We shouldn't blame God because *kitten* rape people. *kitten* do *kitten* things.0 -
I mean, it's never clear clear since there are varied interpretations - I see the interpretation of "God's will" and "man's free will" existing together among others I've come across (a more powerful "God's plan" where everything is planned out and the "choices" you have made were "planned").
Maybe like doing good deeds, feeding hungry people, was someone's "free will" but also part of "God's plan."
I think I am in a loop...lol0 -
My church gets together and usually feed closes to 200 families during Thanksgiving. I figure there are probably at least 999 churches that do the same if not more. Free will lets good people feed 200,000 families each Thanksgiving.
We shouldn't blame God because *kitten* rape people. *kitten* do *kitten* things.
*kitten* created by God and given the free will to carry out their urges. So why not blame God? Why should he get credit for good deeds humans do and be let off the hook for the bad? If he created everything he gets all credit and all blame.
Unless you believe in the red demon who influences people's thoughts. Then we have other rabbit holes to crawl down...0 -
I sense a game of semantics coming.
I don't think you can have "a plan" for the universe along with everyone and everything in it that ever was and will be while at the same time laying blame on the chess pieces for moving in a way that was apparently according to plan.0 -
Religion's views of free will are a little warped. Believe our crap or burn forever. That's a fair choice.0
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Yes, some religions view that. I know that the Catholic faith teaches that God is Mercy and that we choose our eternity, not by our actions, but at the moment of death, that we are given a choice with full knowledge to choose God and repent or to choose to live eternity without God. But it is a choice of the free will. For those who's lives on earth were not saintly, from the moment of choosing God until entering heaven we are purified of our earthly sins (which as Catholics, we call Purgatory). I know many Christians who believe in purification but stop at the idea of Purgatory.Religion's views of free will are a little warped. Believe our crap or burn forever. That's a fair choice.
And the worse part of Hell is not the burning, it's the being separated from God for eternity.0 -
Yes, some religions view that. I know that the Catholic faith teaches that God is Mercy and that we choose our eternity, not by our actions, but at the moment of death, that we are given a choice with full knowledge to choose God and repent or to choose to live eternity without God. But it is a choice of the free will. For those who's lives on earth were not saintly, from the moment of choosing God until entering heaven we are purified of our earthly sins (which as Catholics, we call Purgatory). I know many Christians who believe in purification but stop at the idea of Purgatory.Religion's views of free will are a little warped. Believe our crap or burn forever. That's a fair choice.
And the worse part of Hell is not the burning, it's the being separated from God for eternity.
Funny thing is, I'm seperated from your god now....I seem to be doing fine. So if there is a hell, sounds to me like the burning and torture would suck. That's just me. But then again, I don't believe in hell anymore than I do in purgatory, Hades, Olympia, Nirvana, or the Matrix. Some one just made it up.0 -
Yes, some religions view that. I know that the Catholic faith teaches that God is Mercy and that we choose our eternity, not by our actions, but at the moment of death, that we are given a choice with full knowledge to choose God and repent or to choose to live eternity without God. But it is a choice of the free will. For those who's lives on earth were not saintly, from the moment of choosing God until entering heaven we are purified of our earthly sins (which as Catholics, we call Purgatory). I know many Christians who believe in purification but stop at the idea of Purgatory.
And the worse part of Hell is not the burning, it's the being separated from God for eternity.Funny thing is, I'm seperated from your god now....I seem to be doing fine. So if there is a hell, sounds to me like the burning and torture would suck. That's just me. But then again, I don't believe in hell anymore than I do in purgatory, Hades, Olympia, Nirvana, or the Matrix. Some one just made it up.
Speaking of views of the afterlife, choosing God, and entering heaven - what happens to other religious folks that aren't Christian? Are Hindus in for a nasty surprise when there's no Samsara?0 -
Again, God pours out his mercy on all since we all fail to live 100% holy lives 100% of the time our entire lives. I will not state that I even know the extent of God's mercy, but I know that it is greater than any amount of mercy we can imagine.Yes, some religions view that. I know that the Catholic faith teaches that God is Mercy and that we choose our eternity, not by our actions, but at the moment of death, that we are given a choice with full knowledge to choose God and repent or to choose to live eternity without God. But it is a choice of the free will. For those who's lives on earth were not saintly, from the moment of choosing God until entering heaven we are purified of our earthly sins (which as Catholics, we call Purgatory). I know many Christians who believe in purification but stop at the idea of Purgatory.
And the worse part of Hell is not the burning, it's the being separated from God for eternity.Funny thing is, I'm seperated from your god now....I seem to be doing fine. So if there is a hell, sounds to me like the burning and torture would suck. That's just me. But then again, I don't believe in hell anymore than I do in purgatory, Hades, Olympia, Nirvana, or the Matrix. Some one just made it up.
Speaking of views of the afterlife, choosing God, and entering heaven - what happens to other religious folks that aren't Christian? Are Hindus in for a nasty surprise when there's no Samsara?0 -
My church gets together and usually feed closes to 200 families during Thanksgiving. I figure there are probably at least 999 churches that do the same if not more. Free will lets good people feed 200,000 families each Thanksgiving.
We shouldn't blame God because *kitten* rape people. *kitten* do *kitten* things.
*kitten* created by God and given the free will to carry out their urges. So why not blame God? Why should he get credit for good deeds humans do and be let off the hook for the bad? If he created everything he gets all credit and all blame.
The problem with this is that probably close to 100% of the people that blame God for bad things in the world absolutely do NOT thank God for any of the good in the world. Christians let God off the hook so why should we? was pretty much the argument. Well this is how I think about all of that...
People are born with the gift of free will. People are going to do either good things or bad things and that is 100% on them. However, God has given us a standard by which we should live. There are things that we should and should not do according to the Christian faith. When people act on the principles of our faith as given to us by God and good is done in His name...well maybe God did in fact have something to do with it. But at the same time, there is definitely a DON'T list as well. There isn't any rational to blame God for things that He says don't do. If I drive like an *kitten*, it isn't the cars fault. If a guy uses his free will to murder, it isn't God's fault either.0 -
The problem with this is that probably close to 100% of the people that blame God for bad things in the world absolutely do NOT thank God for any of the good in the world. Christians let God off the hook so why should we? was pretty much the argument. Well this is how I think about all of that...
People are born with the gift of free will. People are going to do either good things or bad things and that is 100% on them. However, God has given us a standard by which we should live. There are things that we should and should not do according to the Christian faith. When people act on the principles of our faith as given to us by God and good is done in His name...well maybe God did in fact have something to do with it. But at the same time, there is definitely a DON'T list as well. There isn't any rational to blame God for things that He says don't do. If I drive like an *kitten*, it isn't the cars fault. If a guy uses his free will to murder, it isn't God's fault either.
Why not? God could have made murder an impossibility if it's so wrong. He could have made humans who live forever. Or (being less ridiculous) he could have decided to not include such a great capacity for aggression in his chosen creation.
Murder's an extreme. How about lust? God definitely has a list of how he wants you to behave regarding your bedroom activities. So why not just make people who aren't walking hormones some of the time? Why fill me with the desire to sleep with as many females as possible and then tell me "NO! You aren't allowed to do that!" If God created everything he created that impulse in all of us. And then wants to punish us for it.
It's one thing if you take the view that human beings are completely in control and responsible for their own actions. But if every drive and desire we have came from our creator he shares the blame.
But we're back to where we always are in this debate "God gave you free will, so when good things happen that's because of God's majesty and you should praise and thank him for it. And when bad things happen that's entirely your own fault and you deserve to be punished eternally."
If he made me and everything there is all blame falls on him. And he should know that, being omnipotent/omniscient and all...0 -
I thank God for the bad too, even the self-created bad. Not only that but I try to offer it up for souls (yes, including yours). Great good can come from suffering if one offers it up for others or in reperation for their own sins.The problem with this is that probably close to 100% of the people that blame God for bad things in the world absolutely do NOT thank God for any of the good in the world. Christians let God off the hook so why should we? was pretty much the argument. Well this is how I think about all of that...
People are born with the gift of free will. People are going to do either good things or bad things and that is 100% on them. However, God has given us a standard by which we should live. There are things that we should and should not do according to the Christian faith. When people act on the principles of our faith as given to us by God and good is done in His name...well maybe God did in fact have something to do with it. But at the same time, there is definitely a DON'T list as well. There isn't any rational to blame God for things that He says don't do. If I drive like an *kitten*, it isn't the cars fault. If a guy uses his free will to murder, it isn't God's fault either.
Why not? God could have made murder an impossibility if it's so wrong. He could have made humans who live forever. Or (being less ridiculous) he could have decided to not include such a great capacity for aggression in his chosen creation.
Murder's an extreme. How about lust? God definitely has a list of how he wants you to behave regarding your bedroom activities. So why not just make people who aren't walking hormones some of the time? Why fill me with the desire to sleep with as many females as possible and then tell me "NO! You aren't allowed to do that!" If God created everything he created that impulse in all of us. And then wants to punish us for it.
It's one thing if you take the view that human beings are completely in control and responsible for their own actions. But if every drive and desire we have came from our creator he shares the blame.
But we're back to where we always are in this debate "God gave you free will, so when good things happen that's because of God's majesty and you should praise and thank him for it. And when bad things happen that's entirely your own fault and you deserve to be punished eternally."
If he made me and everything there is all blame falls on him. And he should know that, being omnipotent/omniscient and all...0 -
The problem with this is that probably close to 100% of the people that blame God for bad things in the world absolutely do NOT thank God for any of the good in the world. Christians let God off the hook so why should we? was pretty much the argument. Well this is how I think about all of that...
People are born with the gift of free will. People are going to do either good things or bad things and that is 100% on them. However, God has given us a standard by which we should live. There are things that we should and should not do according to the Christian faith. When people act on the principles of our faith as given to us by God and good is done in His name...well maybe God did in fact have something to do with it. But at the same time, there is definitely a DON'T list as well. There isn't any rational to blame God for things that He says don't do. If I drive like an *kitten*, it isn't the cars fault. If a guy uses his free will to murder, it isn't God's fault either.
You're not talking about Free Will vs. Fate/God's Will/Plan, though. You're talking about Free Will vs...well nothing; it's just Free Will.
Are we talking about God's plan meaning what God says we should do...or are we talking about God's plan in a "this is fate, His Will be done, no avoiding it"?
I believe the point is that the all-powerful super being who created and is in charge of the universe gets some credit for allowing the possibility for terrible things to happen. Just because he didn't pull the trigger on the gun that kills a 2 year old in a gang war, doesn't mean he walks away without some responsibility. It doesn't really matter if God plays a direct role in our lives or not if he set the clock in motion and knows everything that has and will happen.
Temporal mechanics, God, and Free Will. The stuff of a speculative fiction and star trek geek debates for ages now.0 -
Again, God pours out his mercy on all since we all fail to live 100% holy lives 100% of the time our entire lives. I will not state that I even know the extent of God's mercy, but I know that it is greater than any amount of mercy we can imagine.Speaking of views of the afterlife, choosing God, and entering heaven - what happens to other religious folks that aren't Christian? Are Hindus in for a nasty surprise when there's no Samsara?
But to be clear - Hindus are wrong in this case? I guess what I'm getting at here is something for a completely different topic - the coexistence of multiple religions with multiple destinies. I brought it up in another topic, too, but it was a little convoluted.0 -
is doing something like giving to charity or feeding the homeless because you believe your God wants you to and reward you for it in heaven really free will? or is it doing something now to get a reward in an afterlife?
Whats better, to do something charitable because a god might be watching, or doing something charitable because you believe its the right thing to do?0 -
God cannot be all knowing, all powerful, and all loving. It's impossible.0
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Yes, some religions view that. I know that the Catholic faith teaches that God is Mercy and that we choose our eternity, not by our actions, but at the moment of death, that we are given a choice with full knowledge to choose God and repent or to choose to live eternity without God. But it is a choice of the free will. For those who's lives on earth were not saintly, from the moment of choosing God until entering heaven we are purified of our earthly sins (which as Catholics, we call Purgatory). I know many Christians who believe in purification but stop at the idea of Purgatory.Religion's views of free will are a little warped. Believe our crap or burn forever. That's a fair choice.
And the worse part of Hell is not the burning, it's the being separated from God for eternity.
The Catholic faith has also taught many things over history and then recanted them. That you must buy your way into heaven. That you can have a mistress, only if you have enough money to buy a title for one and that it was god's will to burn people who read scripture and interpreted it differently than the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, etc say it was to be read.
How do you know what they say now is what you should believe? Just another reason for my confusion and distrust of churches...0 -
Trying to reason your way throught something irrational is the definition of insanity.0
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Well, it is also about discernment. Discernment is to take what one believes (or is taught), and see if it is reinforced in Scripture. Yes, there are plenty of moments in Catholic history where there was corruption and leaders who, while at the time were viewed by many as valid, are not seen as valid according to the history of the Church. There were also practices that were wrong and were done away with because they were wrong. But Mercy is one of those things that is so clearly evident in Scripture that one cannot deny that it is real and that God extends it beyond what we as humans can do with it.
Yes, some religions view that. I know that the Catholic faith teaches that God is Mercy and that we choose our eternity, not by our actions, but at the moment of death, that we are given a choice with full knowledge to choose God and repent or to choose to live eternity without God. But it is a choice of the free will. For those who's lives on earth were not saintly, from the moment of choosing God until entering heaven we are purified of our earthly sins (which as Catholics, we call Purgatory). I know many Christians who believe in purification but stop at the idea of Purgatory.Religion's views of free will are a little warped. Believe our crap or burn forever. That's a fair choice.
And the worse part of Hell is not the burning, it's the being separated from God for eternity.
The Catholic faith has also taught many things over history and then recanted them. That you must buy your way into heaven. That you can have a mistress, only if you have enough money to buy a title for one and that it was god's will to burn people who read scripture and interpreted it differently than the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, etc say it was to be read.
How do you know what they say now is what you should believe? Just another reason for my confusion and distrust of churches...
I understand why you may be confused and distrust religion, but again, as I remind others, read the documents that the religions have as their official teaching. To know what the Catholic Church teaches, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Canon Law, General Instruction of the Roman Missal, Encyclicals, and of course The Bible. Yes, that's a lot of reading, but if you really want to know what the teachings and rules are for a church that is so highly criticized by a majority you must know fully all that it teaches, down to what the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass should and should not contain.0 -
Well, it is also about discernment. Discernment is to take what one believes (or is taught), and see if it is reinforced in Scripture. Yes, there are plenty of moments in Catholic history where there was corruption and leaders who, while at the time were viewed by many as valid, are not seen as valid according to the history of the Church. There were also practices that were wrong and were done away with because they were wrong. But Mercy is one of those things that is so clearly evident in Scripture that one cannot deny that it is real and that God extends it beyond what we as humans can do with it.
Yes, some religions view that. I know that the Catholic faith teaches that God is Mercy and that we choose our eternity, not by our actions, but at the moment of death, that we are given a choice with full knowledge to choose God and repent or to choose to live eternity without God. But it is a choice of the free will. For those who's lives on earth were not saintly, from the moment of choosing God until entering heaven we are purified of our earthly sins (which as Catholics, we call Purgatory). I know many Christians who believe in purification but stop at the idea of Purgatory.Religion's views of free will are a little warped. Believe our crap or burn forever. That's a fair choice.
And the worse part of Hell is not the burning, it's the being separated from God for eternity.
The Catholic faith has also taught many things over history and then recanted them. That you must buy your way into heaven. That you can have a mistress, only if you have enough money to buy a title for one and that it was god's will to burn people who read scripture and interpreted it differently than the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, etc say it was to be read.
How do you know what they say now is what you should believe? Just another reason for my confusion and distrust of churches...
I understand why you may be confused and distrust religion, but again, as I remind others, read the documents that the religions have as their official teaching. To know what the Catholic Church teaches, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Canon Law, General Instruction of the Roman Missal, Encyclicals, and of course The Bible. Yes, that's a lot of reading, but if you really want to know what the teachings and rules are for a church that is so highly criticized by a majority you must know fully all that it teaches, down to what the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass should and should not contain.
As I was raised in a Lutheran school, I am familiar with scripture. For 10 years I had to recite bible verses, have a daily bible class and school chapel service once a week. So the big question I have is how do so many different denominatiosn interperate the SAME BOOK so differently? Which one is right? Obviously someone is setting a standard in those denominations, who is that person to translate what the bible is saying when so many other people take it in a different way...0 -
Well, it is also about discernment. Discernment is to take what one believes (or is taught), and see if it is reinforced in Scripture. Yes, there are plenty of moments in Catholic history where there was corruption and leaders who, while at the time were viewed by many as valid, are not seen as valid according to the history of the Church. There were also practices that were wrong and were done away with because they were wrong. But Mercy is one of those things that is so clearly evident in Scripture that one cannot deny that it is real and that God extends it beyond what we as humans can do with it.
Yes, some religions view that. I know that the Catholic faith teaches that God is Mercy and that we choose our eternity, not by our actions, but at the moment of death, that we are given a choice with full knowledge to choose God and repent or to choose to live eternity without God. But it is a choice of the free will. For those who's lives on earth were not saintly, from the moment of choosing God until entering heaven we are purified of our earthly sins (which as Catholics, we call Purgatory). I know many Christians who believe in purification but stop at the idea of Purgatory.Religion's views of free will are a little warped. Believe our crap or burn forever. That's a fair choice.
And the worse part of Hell is not the burning, it's the being separated from God for eternity.
The Catholic faith has also taught many things over history and then recanted them. That you must buy your way into heaven. That you can have a mistress, only if you have enough money to buy a title for one and that it was god's will to burn people who read scripture and interpreted it differently than the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, etc say it was to be read.
How do you know what they say now is what you should believe? Just another reason for my confusion and distrust of churches...
I understand why you may be confused and distrust religion, but again, as I remind others, read the documents that the religions have as their official teaching. To know what the Catholic Church teaches, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Canon Law, General Instruction of the Roman Missal, Encyclicals, and of course The Bible. Yes, that's a lot of reading, but if you really want to know what the teachings and rules are for a church that is so highly criticized by a majority you must know fully all that it teaches, down to what the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass should and should not contain.
As I was raised in a Lutheran school, I am familiar with scripture. For 10 years I had to recite bible verses, have a daily bible class and school chapel service once a week. So the big question I have is how do so many different denominatiosn interperate the SAME BOOK so differently? Which one is right? Obviously someone is setting a standard in those denominations, who is that person to translate what the bible is saying when so many other people take it in a different way...
Exactly. I am Catholic but I don't think I am right and anybody else is wrong... we're all human. I really believe nobody has all the answers, some just think they do. The Bible is open to interpretation - it is full of stories... stories that were handed down by mans word prior to being written down by man. Like any other writing - people will interpret it differently and I'm not going to say my or any interpretation is absolute.0 -
Well, if you research what the early Christ followers did and how they worshiped you'd find that it is the same as the Catholic mass, minus the actual "church" building. These are the same followers who knew Christ when he walked the earth. It requires research if you are truly seeking to know TRUTH.
As I was raised in a Lutheran school, I am familiar with scripture. For 10 years I had to recite bible verses, have a daily bible class and school chapel service once a week. So the big question I have is how do so many different denominatiosn interperate the SAME BOOK so differently? Which one is right? Obviously someone is setting a standard in those denominations, who is that person to translate what the bible is saying when so many other people take it in a different way...0 -
I'm sorry that you don't see the fullness and beauty of the faith you proclaim.
Exactly. I am Catholic but I don't think I am right and anybody else is wrong... we're all human. I really believe nobody has all the answers, some just think they do. The Bible is open to interpretation - it is full of stories... stories that were handed down by mans word prior to being written down by man. Like any other writing - people will interpret it differently and I'm not going to say my or any interpretation is absolute.
Not to mention, the Church doesn't say everyone else is wrong, actually, the Church states clearly that other faiths do contain part of the Truth.0 -
I'm sorry that you don't see the fullness and beauty of the faith you proclaim.
Exactly. I am Catholic but I don't think I am right and anybody else is wrong... we're all human. I really believe nobody has all the answers, some just think they do. The Bible is open to interpretation - it is full of stories... stories that were handed down by mans word prior to being written down by man. Like any other writing - people will interpret it differently and I'm not going to say my or any interpretation is absolute.
Not to mention, the Church doesn't say everyone else is wrong, actually, the Church states clearly that other faiths do contain part of the Truth.
I didn't say the Church says they are wrong... I said I don't think I am right and anybody else is wrong. You can say I don't see the fullness and beauty... I don't see it that way. Even the Church changes its interpretation at times.
The Church I attend is VERY open minded and welcomes discussion. They also practice what they preach and welcome all without judgment. They have openly stated at mass that we have and accept gay/lesbian members. They create an atmosphere where people want to come from all walks of life and feel welcome and good about being there. They do not preach fire and brimstone. They apply the gospel sermon to today's society. We all greet each other at the start of every mass and welcome visitors before concluding - we always have visitors from out of town, often repeat ones. We have a membership full of people who want to be there, and not because they feel like it's their "duty". Everyone participates in one form or another - it's not a "show up on Sunday" Church. We are active in the community. You can speak to our priests about any subject without fear or reprimand. Its a place where the priests know everyone's story and know everyone by name. That to me is fulfilling and beautiful. I'm sorry you actually think I don't see fullness and beauty because I don't see it "your" way.0 -
Well, if you research what the early Christ followers did and how they worshiped you'd find that it is the same as the Catholic mass, minus the actual "church" building. These are the same followers who knew Christ when he walked the earth. It requires research if you are truly seeking to know TRUTH.
As I was raised in a Lutheran school, I am familiar with scripture. For 10 years I had to recite bible verses, have a daily bible class and school chapel service once a week. So the big question I have is how do so many different denominatiosn interperate the SAME BOOK so differently? Which one is right? Obviously someone is setting a standard in those denominations, who is that person to translate what the bible is saying when so many other people take it in a different way...
If that were true then why are there so many non-Catholics who read and study the Bible daily? Do you think they are too dim to see "TRUTH" or that they are just ignoring that "TRUTH"?0 -
My parish is the same way, just as welcoming and active. However, I would venture that many assume that it is not based on how "traditional" we are (up until recently we even had the Tridintine mass celebrated at our parish). We have had plenty of fire and brimstone homilies if you want to call being held accountable for one's sins fire and brimstone (last year's Ash Wednesday homily called us all to stop sinning, that that is what we should do for Lent, and he pointed out how so few attend confession). But all my non-church going and non-Catholic family absolutely LOVE my parish and our pastor. We live too far away from everyone for them to come on other occassions but I would venture to say that all parishes are way more welcoming than what is stereotyped. I just prefer to be challenged and told that my sins ARE sins, no sugar coating. I'm sure I'd love going to your parish and I'm sure you would love mine. After all, the Church is for there to help the spiritually sick.
I'm sorry that you don't see the fullness and beauty of the faith you proclaim.
Exactly. I am Catholic but I don't think I am right and anybody else is wrong... we're all human. I really believe nobody has all the answers, some just think they do. The Bible is open to interpretation - it is full of stories... stories that were handed down by mans word prior to being written down by man. Like any other writing - people will interpret it differently and I'm not going to say my or any interpretation is absolute.
Not to mention, the Church doesn't say everyone else is wrong, actually, the Church states clearly that other faiths do contain part of the Truth.
I didn't say the Church says they are wrong... I said I don't think I am right and anybody else is wrong. You can say I don't see the fullness and beauty... I don't see it that way. Even the Church changes its interpretation at times.
The Church I attend is VERY open minded and welcomes discussion. They also practice what they preach and welcome all without judgment. They have openly stated at mass that we have and accept gay/lesbian members. They create an atmosphere where people want to come from all walks of life and feel welcome and good about being there. They do not preach fire and brimstone. They apply the gospel sermon to today's society. We all greet each other at the start of every mass and welcome visitors before concluding - we always have visitors from out of town, often repeat ones. We have a membership full of people who want to be there, and not because they feel like it's their "duty". Everyone participates in one form or another - it's not a "show up on Sunday" Church. We are active in the community. You can speak to our priests about any subject without fear or reprimand. Its a place where the priests know everyone's story and know everyone by name. That to me is fulfilling and beautiful. I'm sorry you actually think I don't see fullness and beauty because I don't see it "your" way.0 -
But really - if your belief is:I know that the Catholic faith teaches that God is Mercy and that we choose our eternity, not by our actions, but at the moment of death, that we are given a choice with full knowledge to choose God and repent or to choose to live eternity without God. But it is a choice of the free will. For those who's lives on earth were not saintly, from the moment of choosing God until entering heaven we are purified of our earthly sins (which as Catholics, we call Purgatory).
what do you think happens to someone who has worshipped Hindu deities (the Trimurti, Tridevi, and so on - or any other religion, for that matter) when they die? I am sincerely interested - I've never heard anyone's thoughts on this. Ever.0
This discussion has been closed.