Excessive force?! it's interesting

Grimmerick

Ok so this is an example of how road rage goes bad quickly. I won't use names but I will call my friend Tom. My friend Tom was driving to work the other morning, he works on a military base (he is not military, DOD) A guy behind him whips out from behind him and speeds up. Well Tom speeds up with the flow of traffic, which there wasn't really anyone right in front of him. The guy that was behind him whips out and speeds past and cuts him off then hits his breaks causing Tom to very lightly bump his car. They pull over the guy gets out and looks at his and Toms car, says there is no damage and they agree not to call the cops. The guy then proceeds to ask Tom why he was being an Fing Prick by speeding up when he was trying to pass him. Tom said wait a second you need to be accountable for yourself, you were so impatient that you couldn't wait 20 yards to make a right turn you had to whip around me and cut me off then hit your breaks for no reason(there was no car in front of the guy when he hit his breaks) and he said I didn't speed up so you couldn't get over I sped up because traffic did. The guy said "So What, and F you" and they exchanged words. The guy then leans into Toms window and spits in his face. Tom gets out of the car. Right as he gets out the guy sucker punches him in the face knocking him to the ground. Tom is in his 40's and has back problems, this guy was 24 or so. After Tom gets halfway up the guy tackles him onto the hood of his own car. They struggle for a minute and then Tom trying to get this guy to stop puts his head through the windshield. Well that definitely stopped the guy, he was knocked unconcious and slid down the car onto the ground. He did not come to until the cops and ambulance were there. Now Tom stopped the second he took the guy out, he did not continue the fight, he walked away and sat in his car until the cops got there. The guy got taken away on a stretcher in a neck brace and mentioned suing for excessive force. REALLY?! They didn't arrest Tom or even put forth any charges, because it's military on a base it goes to a civil panel first. 2 witnesses saw everything and gave the same story Tom did. From the guy cutting him off and slamming on his breaks for no reason, to the spitting, punching and tackling, and then of course to the face through the windshield.
Do you think Tom used excessive force? Do you think he should be punished for this? Or did this guy deserve what he got?

My opinion and this isn't just because Tom's my friend, the second the guy spit in his face it was on like Donkey Kong, lol my 5'3 mother even said that * sigh* I love her.

LuckyLeprechaun

Spitting on someone IS assault. That sucks.

adrian_indy

I have no problem with anything that happened in this story as far as Tom goes.

DoingItNow2012

Road rage is crazy! Half the time you would never even encounter these people again, yet one episode of bad judgement can have SEVERE consequences. Thank goodness the guy didn't have a gun becasue he sounds crazy enough to have used it. Hell for that matter, thank goodness Tom didn't have a gun himself or it could have ended badly for both.

I would say this was a hypothetical situation, but even if it was, I hear enough crazy stuff on the news not even to see this as far fetched.

Oh, I have no idea if it is excessive or not. Since noone is dead or hopefully not seriouly mamed, I'm inclined to say no. And lucky for Tom he has witnesses. Shoot I have heard of someone being sued for saving someone's life because they were injured in the process. Crazy, crazy world.

fbmandy55

I have no problem with anything that happened in this story as far as Tom goes.

Ditto.

MikeSEA

If someone tackles me (in that situation), they should happy if I don't get an opportunity to snap their neck. Sorry, but given the completely psychotic response of the other driver, Tom had every reason to fear for his life based on how events escalated.

The moron can try to sue but it won't do much good. Having worked in Auto insurance claims in the past, given the witness reports, it doesn't sound like he's got much of a case. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he planned it from the beginning. Tom has a better case against the other driver as far as civil suits go.

Technically speaking, Tom should probably get a ticket because according to most states' rules of the road, there aren't very many (if any) circumstances that absolve someone of their responsibility to make sure they have enough time to avoid hitting someone in front them. That includes asshats who cut them off and slam on their breaks on purpose. That's not a fun discussion to have, believe me. However, that citation is only a criminal matter and doesn't have to mean anything as far as civil torts go.

TheRoadDog

If I may quote Don Henley "There's 3 sides to every story. Yours, mine and the cold hard truth."

I imagine as each participant recalls the story the blame might shift somewhat. Fact is they both acted immaturely. Can't say how I would have reacted or how I would have told the story afterwards, but I know one thing for a fact -- it was unnecessary.

I have been in many, many, many fights in my life and there was never a time when I couldn't have avoided it. Some of them I would handle the same way if it happened again, but I like to think I might walk away or avoid some of them today.

adrian_indy

If I may quote Don Henley "There's 3 sides to every story. Yours, mine and the cold hard truth."

I imagine as each participant recalls the story the blame might shift somewhat. Fact is they both acted immaturely. Can't say how I would have reacted or how I would have told the story afterwards, but I know one thing for a fact -- it was unnecessary.

I have been in many, many, many fights in my life and there was never a time when I couldn't have avoided it. Some of them I would handle the same way if it happened again, but I like to think I might walk away or avoid some of them today.

I agree with you to an extent. We could always look at these cases in hind sight and say, well Tom could have stayed in his car after the dude spit on him and called the cops instead. But he unwisely chose to step out of his car. But I have always maintained that I do not believe that any act of rudeness, racism or immaturity calls for a violent reaction. The minute a punch or kick is thrown, that party is guiltiy in almost every case unless they can prove they truly felt threatened. And after that first punch is thrown, I often give great leeway to the defender for the simple fact that we are humans, not robots. A person has two response, fight or flight. Some geneticall, chemically, or enviornmentally react more one way or another. I try not to apply logic to that situation because when a person is attacked, more often than not, insticts take over. It reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXeVxf4c0Rk

It's a short 12 second video, and who do you think was wrong?

TheRoadDog

If I may quote Don Henley "There's 3 sides to every story. Yours, mine and the cold hard truth."

I imagine as each participant recalls the story the blame might shift somewhat. Fact is they both acted immaturely. Can't say how I would have reacted or how I would have told the story afterwards, but I know one thing for a fact -- it was unnecessary.

I have been in many, many, many fights in my life and there was never a time when I couldn't have avoided it. Some of them I would handle the same way if it happened again, but I like to think I might walk away or avoid some of them today.

I agree with you to an extent. We could always look at these cases in hind sight and say, well Tom could have stayed in his car after the dude spit on him and called the cops instead. But he unwisely chose to step out of his car. But I have always maintained that I do not believe that any act of rudeness, racism or immaturity calls for a violent reaction. The minute a punch or kick is thrown, that party is guiltiy in almost every case unless they can prove they truly felt threatened. And after that first punch is thrown, I often give great leeway to the defender for the simple fact that we are humans, not robots. A person has two response, fight or flight. Some geneticall, chemically, or enviornmentally react more one way or another. I try not to apply logic to that situation because when a person is attacked, more often than not, insticts take over. It reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXeVxf4c0Rk

It's a short 12 second video, and who do you think was wrong?

Can't really decide who's to blame for the outcome, but there was ample time for that guy to come to the realization that he wasn't in any danger. I, personally, wouldn't have struck the guy in the gorilla mask. I would have realized it was a prank.

adrian_indy

If I may quote Don Henley "There's 3 sides to every story. Yours, mine and the cold hard truth."

I imagine as each participant recalls the story the blame might shift somewhat. Fact is they both acted immaturely. Can't say how I would have reacted or how I would have told the story afterwards, but I know one thing for a fact -- it was unnecessary.

I have been in many, many, many fights in my life and there was never a time when I couldn't have avoided it. Some of them I would handle the same way if it happened again, but I like to think I might walk away or avoid some of them today.

I agree with you to an extent. We could always look at these cases in hind sight and say, well Tom could have stayed in his car after the dude spit on him and called the cops instead. But he unwisely chose to step out of his car. But I have always maintained that I do not believe that any act of rudeness, racism or immaturity calls for a violent reaction. The minute a punch or kick is thrown, that party is guiltiy in almost every case unless they can prove they truly felt threatened. And after that first punch is thrown, I often give great leeway to the defender for the simple fact that we are humans, not robots. A person has two response, fight or flight. Some geneticall, chemically, or enviornmentally react more one way or another. I try not to apply logic to that situation because when a person is attacked, more often than not, insticts take over. It reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXeVxf4c0Rk

It's a short 12 second video, and who do you think was wrong?

Can't really decide who's to blame for the outcome, but there was ample time for that guy to come to the realization that he wasn't in any danger. I, personally, wouldn't have struck the guy in the gorilla mask. I would have realized it was a prank.

But was the person who hit him in control or was it a reflex? That is all I am trying to point out. If you startle my wife, she balls up in a defensive position. If you starle my friend some of my guy friends, their fist almost always comes up. They might be able to catch themselves, but instinctually they lash out.

fbmandy55

If I may quote Don Henley "There's 3 sides to every story. Yours, mine and the cold hard truth."

I imagine as each participant recalls the story the blame might shift somewhat. Fact is they both acted immaturely. Can't say how I would have reacted or how I would have told the story afterwards, but I know one thing for a fact -- it was unnecessary.

I have been in many, many, many fights in my life and there was never a time when I couldn't have avoided it. Some of them I would handle the same way if it happened again, but I like to think I might walk away or avoid some of them today.

I should try to take in your wisdom but as of today, in my young, imature age, would not let someone treat me like that without handing their *kitten* to them.

I've never been in a fight in my life, by the way.

dragonbait0126

If I may quote Don Henley "There's 3 sides to every story. Yours, mine and the cold hard truth."

I imagine as each participant recalls the story the blame might shift somewhat. Fact is they both acted immaturely. Can't say how I would have reacted or how I would have told the story afterwards, but I know one thing for a fact -- it was unnecessary.

I have been in many, many, many fights in my life and there was never a time when I couldn't have avoided it. Some of them I would handle the same way if it happened again, but I like to think I might walk away or avoid some of them today.

I agree with you to an extent. We could always look at these cases in hind sight and say, well Tom could have stayed in his car after the dude spit on him and called the cops instead. But he unwisely chose to step out of his car. But I have always maintained that I do not believe that any act of rudeness, racism or immaturity calls for a violent reaction. The minute a punch or kick is thrown, that party is guiltiy in almost every case unless they can prove they truly felt threatened. And after that first punch is thrown, I often give great leeway to the defender for the simple fact that we are humans, not robots. A person has two response, fight or flight. Some geneticall, chemically, or enviornmentally react more one way or another. I try not to apply logic to that situation because when a person is attacked, more often than not, insticts take over. It reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXeVxf4c0Rk

It's a short 12 second video, and who do you think was wrong?

Can't really decide who's to blame for the outcome, but there was ample time for that guy to come to the realization that he wasn't in any danger. I, personally, wouldn't have struck the guy in the gorilla mask. I would have realized it was a prank.

But was the person who hit him in control or was it a reflex? That is all I am trying to point out. If you startle my wife, she balls up in a defensive position. If you starle my friend some of my guy friends, their fist almost always comes up. They might be able to catch themselves, but instinctually they lash out.

I've almost knocked out my husband because of instinct. He used to work nights. When he got home he would always come in to check on me. There were a couple of times where he came in and I just felt someone standing above me. Didn't know who just knew someone was there. Instinct kicked in and I rolled over swinging. He managed to catch my arm while going "baby! baby! It's just me! It's okay! It's just me!" Needless to say the next day when he mentioned it I advised him that if he didn't want to get hurt then he had better not scare me again while I was sleeping.

So, in regards to this situation, I can understand the instinct that kicks in and makes you get out of the car. Is the right or best thing to do? No, but I get it.

Grimmerick

I have to say knowing Tom like I do, he is not quick to anger at all, and from past experience with him he does not lean to exaggeration. He hasn't been in any physical altercation in over 20 years. But he said the spit in his face was the line. He said if they had just continued to exchange words it wouldn't have escalated to anything. But when the guy leaned in and spit, that's what did it. Of course he hopes the guy isn't permanently damaged but he also feels the guy should be accountable for writing a check his *kitten* couldn't cash and for driving aggressively in the first place. He got the feeling the guy just thought he was older and couldn't take care of himself hence the escalating it to spitting in his face.

Lozze

If he's put someone's head through the windscreen I think it might have been excessive. I've watched people jump up and down on those things and not put someone through it. Windscreen glass is HARD to break.

Grimmerick

*UPDATE* They got everything on camera from start to finish. Tom is completely cleared and the police stated even without witnesses it was obvious that this guy started everything and even egged Tom on continually before he spit in his face by doing that jump at you thing and saying so what, so what I cut you off what are you gonna do about it, you gonna do something about it. Then he made some kind of OooOooO growling noise then he spit.(Tom didn't elaborate on that part before).

As far as the windshield goes, it could have had a crack in it that made it easier to break, or..... Tom said it was a very small car so maybe the windshield wasn't as strong.

Also excessive force is usually held for use in situations with police officers and for someone trained to fight (the police told me that). Also Excessive force is more of an intentional thing isn't it? Tom didn't mean to break the windshield with his face so is it still excessive force?

Doesn't matter now anyway, The guy really screwed himself in every way possible that day and he will probably lose job, hard price to pay just for being in a rotten mood that morning.

adrian_indy

*UPDATE* They got everything on camera from start to finish. Tom is completely cleared and the police stated even without witnesses it was obvious that this guy started everything and even egged Tom on continually before he spit in his face by doing that jump at you thing and saying so what, so what I cut you off what are you gonna do about it, you gonna do something about it. Then he made some kind of OooOooO growling noise then he spit.(Tom didn't elaborate on that part before).

As far as the windshield goes, it could have had a crack in it that made it easier to break, or..... Tom said it was a very small car so maybe the windshield wasn't as strong.

Also excessive force is usually held for use in situations with police officers and for someone trained to fight (the police told me that). Also Excessive force is more of an intentional thing isn't it? Tom didn't mean to break the windshield with his face so is it still excessive force?

Doesn't matter now anyway, The guy really screwed himself in every way possible that day and he will probably lose job, hard price to pay just for being in a rotten mood that morning.

WIndsheilds are fickle. I saw my sister at the age of around 16 in an argument wtih her boyfriend smack his windshield with her palm. I think it must of been the ring she was wearing that contributed to it, but she spider cracked the whole window.

Lozze

WIndsheilds are fickle. I saw my sister at the age of around 16 in an argument wtih her boyfriend smack his windshield with her palm. I think it must of been the ring she was wearing that contributed to it, but she spider cracked the whole window.

Oh windscreen are easy to crack. Going through them though? Not so easy. (I'm talking an actual hole in the windscreen) I've seen 200lb men jump up and down on them and not go through them (yeah the guys I worked with were stupid) They're made to not break when a car rolls so a man being thrown into one shouldn't break them. If the windscreen actully had a hole in it (not a crack) then IMO excessive force was used.

Grimmerick

WIndsheilds are fickle. I saw my sister at the age of around 16 in an argument wtih her boyfriend smack his windshield with her palm. I think it must of been the ring she was wearing that contributed to it, but she spider cracked the whole window.

Oh windscreen are easy to crack. Going through them though? Not so easy. (I'm talking an actual hole in the windscreen) I've seen 200lb men jump up and down on them and not go through them (yeah the guys I worked with were stupid) They're made to not break when a car rolls so a man being thrown into one shouldn't break them. If the windscreen actully had a hole in it (not a crack) then IMO excessive force was used.

I guess what we are trying to say is scientifically to break the windshield it might have taken excessive force, but can it be considered excessive force LEGALLY if it was not meant to be done, in the heat of the moment. Would you consider it excessive force if he didn't mean to put him through the windshield? Legally according to the police it is not considered excessive force, especially since Tom was not a police officer or trained in combat, and the other guy was the aggressor.

Just a side note when I worked in the ER it wasn't at all unusual for accident victims to fly through the windshield and out of the car when not wearing their seatbelts.