"Failure"

a_stronger_steph

Hey everyone!

I upped my squats to 100 lbs today, and pulled it off, though I am pretty sure my form was crap. I'm *still* having difficulty trying to place my hands/arms such that my wrists don't bend and support any weight of the bar (I keep looking at the "tape on hands/wrists" example in Rippetoe's book but it's not helping much).

One of the ladies who works at the gym came over to me during my squats a week or two back and suggested I do high-bar squats. I told her I was intentionally doing low-bar squats, and she sort of shrugged and told me to keep my chest out more (noted!). But after she said she didn't know anything about low-bar squats I didn't feel too comfy asking for form critique. A few days ago I did meet a lady who works at the gym and she knows who Rippetoe is, so I was going to get her to check my squats today, but she wasn't there.

Aaaaanyways. All that to say... I know what it feels like to "fail" a rep with overhead press or bench press. I'll start to lift the bar and bam, my arms say "nope, that's not going over your head!" and I rack it. Once I sort of dropped the bar during my bench, but I was in a rack with safety bars, so it didn't land on me (phew). I actually feel fine about failing reps on everything *but* the squat.

And now that I'm finally heavy enough with the squat for that to start feeling like it might be an option, I'm kind of really scared of increasing my weights. I guess I just feel like there's a lot more potential for me to injure my back, which has been prone to injuries in the past, with a failed squat rep. I do use a squat rack with safety bars, so the bar wouldn't crash down on top of me, but I *do* have to set those safety bars pretty low in order for me to squat low enough at all.

So I guess I'm just looking for... tips? Reassurance? Have you failed a squat rep? What happened? Has anyone injured themselves doing so? Am I being irrational?

Qarol

How's this for reassurance? I can't even squat with the empty bar. My form is crap. So I'm doing higher reps with a 6 lb body bar. Is it embarrassing? Hell yes. Worth it? Hell yes.

_GlaDOS_

I think you really will know when it happens. I failed once and just kind of... sat down. Could not, for some reason, push up. Safety bars ftw. If you are worried about your back, I think once you lift it up, you will know if it's too heavy or your form isn't right. And if your form isn't right now, you might want to think about taking video and fixing anything you need to fix now before you increase weight.

Rae6503

First, if you can't do it with good form it doesn't count, so stick at lower weights until you get it. I've found with low bar that I never stand up all the way so the bar is resting on my back, not being held up by my arms.

Second, make sure you are in a cage of some kind and that the catch bars are just below where you get at the bottom of the squat, that way if you get stuck, you only have to lower it a few inches to crawl out from under it.

tameko2

I think you really will know when it happens. I failed once and just kind of... sat down. Could not, for some reason, push up. Safety bars ftw. If you are worried about your back, I think once you lift it up, you will know if it's too heavy or your form isn't right. And if your form isn't right now, you might want to think about taking video and fixing anything you need to fix now before you increase weight.

this is how I failed too. Went down, couldn't go back up. Thought "Oh, that was odd" and tried again. Went down, couldn't go back up. Your legs pretty much go out. they don't hurt, but there's no strength there. I end up leaving it on the Ohsh*t bars (the catch bars) and just crawling out.

How did you feel like you were failing?

As far as your wrists go, I found for me what helps is tostep away from the bar, push my elbows BACK towards each other til me hands are about where I'd watn them to sit WITH the bar, then I mentally hold that position and get back under the bar. Also make sure your hands aren't too close together or two far apart. Just shift them around until it feels right, it sounds like maybe you just have your arms at the wrong angle or you aren't squeezing your shoulderblades together enough (pushing your elbows back together or sticking your chest out -- however it helps you to think about it, its all the same motion).

Basically the strain in your arms should be minimal to non existant. I've actually let go of the bar with one hand (uh, this is not recommended, I was really straining) for a second and it was fine for that split second. your arms do very little. (it wouldn't have been fine for longer than that, it was recoverable).

a_stronger_steph

First, if you can't do it with good form it doesn't count, so stick at lower weights until you get it. I've found with low bar that I never stand up all the way so the bar is resting on my back, not being held up by my arms.

Second, make sure you are in a cage of some kind and that the catch bars are just below where you get at the bottom of the squat, that way if you get stuck, you only have to lower it a few inches to crawl out from under it.

Yeah... I'm just struggling to figure out what "good form" really is. I felt fairly fine with my squat form until yesterday (aside from the issue of not being sure how to hold my arms/hands), but yesterday I noticed that on the "rise" part of the squat, I had a differential in the rate at which my hips were rising and my back was rising. It's the first time I've noticed that, so I'm not sure if it's due to the increase in difficulty or if I've been doing that all along.

I definitely always use the cage! I like that those bars are there, just in case.

this is how I failed too. Went down, couldn't go back up. Thought "Oh, that was odd" and tried again. Went down, couldn't go back up. Your legs pretty much go out. they don't hurt, but there's no strength there. I end up leaving it on the Ohsh*t bars (the catch bars) and just crawling out.

This is reassuring - I guess it makes sense that if you fail, it'll be at the bottom when you're coming back up, and that's mostly your glutes/hamstrings/quads at that point, and less the back, right? I'm not too worried about injuring my legs - they're pretty sturdy :laugh:

As far as your wrists go, I found for me what helps is tostep away from the bar, push my elbows BACK towards each other til me hands are about where I'd watn them to sit WITH the bar, then I mentally hold that position and get back under the bar. Also make sure your hands aren't too close together or two far apart. Just shift them around until it feels right, it sounds like maybe you just have your arms at the wrong angle or you aren't squeezing your shoulderblades together enough (pushing your elbows back together or sticking your chest out -- however it helps you to think about it, its all the same motion).

Hmm. I do squeeze my shoulderblades together, though I don't know if I've ever thought about it like pushing my elbows back. I basically tense the muscles up so that the bar has something to sit on that's not just lax muscle and bone (I did that ONCE - never again!!). When my hands are closer together, the wrists activate too much, I find. When they're further apart, I feel like I'm going to "drop" the bar. Maybe that's my problem, though, because my hands are just there to make sure it doesn't roll off my back, right? I'll try wider next time and see if that helps.

And yes, it does sound like I need to have a video of my form taken. My gym explicitly states that photography/videography is forbidden, though - anyone else's gym like this? Do they make exceptions for "form checking" videos, maybe?

And thanks so much to everyone for the input/reassurance. It's so helpful having people to bounce these thoughts/ideas off of!

tameko2

it sounds like possibly you lean too far forward when you go down - but yeah a picture or video should be fine. My gym doens't have a rule like that but I would htink its mostly to prevent creepers - if you've got a buddy taking video of you obviously it should be fine. Or heck ask a gym employee to take it for you if that's their concern.

do try the elbows thing too, that helped me a lot.

Qarol

I took a video of my form once. It's how I knew my form was really crap and to abandon the olympic bar for squats. I like the supportive comments saying, if your form is bad, it doesn't count. That makes me feel better. I'm working hard on my form with almost no weight. I'm eager to get it right and get back with the olympic bar and maybe even some extra weight, but I know I can't rush things.

gemiwing

I took a video of my form once. It's how I knew my form was really crap and to abandon the olympic bar for squats. I like the supportive comments saying, if your form is bad, it doesn't count. That makes me feel better. I'm working hard on my form with almost no weight. I'm eager to get it right and get back with the olympic bar and maybe even some extra weight, but I know I can't rush things.

I am too- I'm working with body weight and a lighter bar until I can get the form down. I'm trying to be patient to myself and kind as well

_GlaDOS_

I also took video of my form a few weeks ago. I thought I was doing ok, but being able to watch again - you *really* see where you need to improve. And when your form isn't where it should be, the weight feels heavier and the exercise is more painful and not as fun. I hated squats when I started and now I love them because my form has improved and I can feel more comfortable adding weight because I know I'm doing it right, or at least, getting better at doing it right.

a_stronger_steph

I deloaded to 85 lbs today to try to work on form. I felt a lot better about it than last time. I asked the helpful badass who works at the gym (she was there to work out today, though, not on duty, so I couldn't really bug her as much as I wanted!) about hand placement and she gave me tips (turns out I was putting them too far out, I think). So with that and "elbows back" I felt much more at ease with how my arms were set up.

That lets me focus on things like hip drive! Wabam! I'll probably ask next time if someone can record my form for me, but I'm feeling much better about things now. Also, I felt the squats a bit more in my glutes/hams than I have been, which I think is probably a good thing, as I suspect I have a tendency to use my massive power-quads for everything. ;-)

tameko2

I didn't feel all that good about my squats last time so I might tape myself tonight. My husband IS watching me though so I can't be doing anything TOO wrong (right?) but he hasn't watched nearly as many people squat as I have.

Qarol

I didn't feel all that good about my squats last time so I might tape myself tonight. My husband IS watching me though so I can't be doing anything TOO wrong (right?) but he hasn't watched nearly as many people squat as I have.

Problem with my husband watching me is I'll ask about my back, and he'll say, oh I was watching your heels. Then next time, I'll ask about my heels, and he'll say he was watching my back. Video is excellent. I can watch it over and over.

irridia

Also, I felt the squats a bit more in my glutes/hams than I have been,

THAT is awesome and it does mean that you are on the right track!!!

Stuff that helped me (I tend to crumple forward when it gets heavy): Thumbless grip, check youtube if you want an example. The bar hits about an inch above bra strap (ha! Try getting THAT tip from a Bro).

If you find you are crumpling forward, despite what a lot of the vids say (designed for men and our center of gravity [COG from now on} is lower than theirs) you probably don't have a weak upper back but instead an weak core, this is especially likely if you sit all day at work. Keep your abs tight, work without a belt because it will make you focus on your abs and builds stability.

Before you squat with weights. Squat down like you are going to poop in the woods. All the way down. Is it comfy? if not then adjust your feet both how far apart and angled out. Ignore the keep your toes striaght rule and do what feels right for you. Memorize that stance then pick up the bar and go to a hair past paralell looking at a fixed spot on the wall that is just above eye level when you stand and keep your butt out as you decend.

Try to keep the bar in the same vertical plane as you decend and rise.

As far as failing goes Macha Me says: This ain't no pink dumbel exercise!
Glad you are focusing on form. While Macha Me totally says "Go heavy or go home" she also adds, but only if you have good form because you can hurt yourself with this heavy stuff!

I have fallen at 120, I fell almost the second I got to the bottom of the hole. I had no catch weights, I was doing high bar. I was not super hurt but I did strain my lower back pretty badly and had to lay off for about a week. I could have deloaded a little and kept going but either I got sick or my 6 yr old hit me on the outside tendon just above my elbow with a baseball bat (little slugger bat), so I had to lay off another week. I've not been back up to 120 but I'm well on my way and despite not having a power rack yet, I have come up with a workable catchweight system using heavy dining chairs, so I'm no longer worried about losing it.

Oh and I fell, not because of mucle failure, but due to not being balanced properly in my form! Form form form!