So.... Do you think fat is still a feminist issue?

meerkat70

So, way back in 1978, Susie Orbach suggested we give up 'dieting', suggesting it was one more tool of objectification and commodification of the female body. Does her argument remain valid in 2012?

Buddhasmiracle

Yes, I think in the sense that she wrote about "dieting" as a means to conform to societal standards of beauty. Traditionally dieting for women hasn't been about fitness and health. It's been about fitting into a prom dress, getting ready for the beach, fitting into a wedding dress (now tube feeding!!). It still is. Look at the Sensa ads that appear on our MFP pages -- all dresses going from fat to thin. Why on earth otherwise intelligent women engage in such self destructive behavior is beyond me.

Marketing diet products -- Sensa, jenny craig, ww, etc. is directed towards women (once and awhile they throw in a has been male athlete). when I grew up (late 60s-70s) it wasn't unusual for young women to be prescribed "black beauties" i.e. speed, to loose weight. I had a girl friend whose mother was so ashamed of her daughter's weight, she went out on the street to buy that junk for her daughter to take.

justaspringhaze

Absolutely!

The piece of the debate that I struggle with the most is my own intentions for losing weight. Am I losing weight so that I can LOOK awesome in a bikini or so that I can FEEL awesome in a bikini? Do I want to be strong to impress people or so that I can be more independent? Do I want to get rid of my flabby arms because they truly bother me or because I am embarrassed of them?

We must remain critically aware of our own intentions, always.

When it comes down to it, i do believe that I want to be stronger, fitter, and thinner for my own feeling of empowerment. But I must always ask myself if I am using my OWN definition of empowerment or if I'm using a patriarchal standard to define empowerment.

PANZERIA

I had to fight this battle mentally as well. Am I really working out and eating properly for me, or for society? Am I apologizing for my body by hiding it and trying desperately to be rid of any excess weight so I don't offend anyone?

I'm not too sure if 'fat' is strictly the issue, though. It might be that we need to look into the terminology of the dieting world. I mean, I NEED to lose weight and get fit for my future career if I'm to stay safe, so that's my main motivation. Having excess fat will hinder my speed, which may allow a dangerous felon to get away.

What bothers me is the fact that society and the media promotes Victoria's Secret models as the ideal (underweight bag of bones with implants) really shows a warped sense of what women should strive to be. I also think it's 'interesting' how America's Next Top Model always gets the prime-time spot, when a show like X-Weighted or X-Weighted Families is only on at 2AM, if at all (it was actually cancelled this last winter after 3 seasons).

I do think that the idea of women getting 'bulky' is a feminist issue, though. Why is it so wrong for women to take up space? Men are allowed to have massive arms, why can't a woman? It's not 'feminine' enough is the typical response. Ugh. So many things!!!

AthenaErr

I think the Orbach book is actually talking about how dieting is connected to issues about womens role in society. The problem isnt just weightloss but what that says about you to others - thats why we find it so hard because we are scared what messages a changed body sends out inot the world.So she was talking about how it is feminist to be concerned about being fat. Much of the book talks about issues women have with weightloss around worrying that they would be 'too desireable' - scared of being hit on, of getting male attention you dont know how to handle, or that undermines your status (think of the time a male junior at work totally leched on you and you felt humiliated cos in the end you can be as senior as you like but you are still just a piece of *kitten*) Or being scared that being thin would make other women not like you because you are vain, stupid, mean etc etc. Or the myriad 'of put yourself last' thinking that makes you not take time to take care of yourself properly because a womans first concern should be for others. So you misery eat becasue is a quiet socially acceptable form of having a breakdown without inconveniencing anyone else.

The book goes through loads of these examples taking case studies from Orbachs self help groups. I identified with lots of it. I struggle with the part of me that wants to rebel and the part that wants to conform. So I want to look good and yet I want to stick two fingers up to anyone who to tell me what that good is. I specifically have always felt that I needed physical 'heft' in order to have moral or personal weight. That if I was too thin or too pretty no one would see Im clever too.

I dont know if younger women today still feel like this. The predominant culture seems to be shifting more and more to a woman is just for looks outlook, I dont know how much of that people really accept but its insidious. I found the fem/ist thread on here yesterday really disappointing. Ive only been here a few months but I found the whole 'lift heavy be strong' mfp approach very feminist - cant believe the thread went crazy like that.

I do see women struggling with their desire to look good and yet to define what that is for themselves and to still be taken seriously

AthenaErr

Or even that if you are thin people might see you as mean, *****y, vain. We pity fat people but we are often really mean to thin women and then we justify it by saying 'lucky cow'

kayemme

I don't think "fat" is a feminist issue, but body image of any size or range that is dictated and exploited by a commercial venue is.

the real feminist action would be to dispel myths about size and look at health & well being.

I love my body at all sizes and sure, I find myself wishing I was smaller sometimes the same way I sometimes wish I were taller or sometimes wish I were shorter or sometimes wish I had brown eyes instead of blue or dark skin instead of fair.

but these wishes aren't determined by someone else's idea of what I should be, they're often practical like: darker skin has better tolerance to sunlight (as do brown eyes). or, "that dress would be so cute on me if I could fit in it"

I find a lot of people bashing women who are "too thin" as much as they bash women for being "too fat" as if all bodies were created equally.

when I see this kind of behavior, I either call it out or I remain freakishly quiet. sometimes by not adding my opinion to egg on a group is just as powerful as starting an argument over it.

kayemme

What bothers me is the fact that society and the media promotes Victoria's Secret models as the ideal (underweight bag of bones with implants) really shows a warped sense of what women should strive to be. I also think it's 'interesting' how America's Next Top Model always gets the prime-time spot, when a show like X-Weighted or X-Weighted Families is only on at 2AM, if at all (it was actually cancelled this last winter after 3 seasons).

and this quote kind of describes my earlier point.

zellagrrl

It is still a feminist issue... what concerns me more though, are people who say they're for women's rights, but won't refer to themselves as feminists. ARGH.

Body image is tied in great detail to women's issues overall, I think, and not just here in the US. There's some Bollywood actress who hasn't lost all her baby weight in 6 months, and articles have said that she's a failure and a poor representation of her country-- really? And Jessica Simpson apparently has a $4M deal with Weight Watchers post-baby, and magazines were flipping out about her weight gain too-- including an MD who said that she recommended a 1200 calorie a day diet for pregnant women (she later retracted that).

Women basically have to go from one norm to the next, while men get automatically exempted from certain norms when they meet others (i.e. looks vs. money). A woman such as Hillary Clinton or Ruper Murdoch's exec (the redhead, who was called out for having frizzy hair) is still expected to be hot, regardless of brains, riches, or anything else. It's a perpetual double standard.

At any rate, the book was interesting, for anyone who hasn't read it, by the way.

kayemme

Women basically have to go from one norm to the next, while men get automatically exempted from certain norms when they meet others (i.e. looks vs. money). A woman such as Hillary Clinton or Ruper Murdoch's exec (the redhead, who was called out for having frizzy hair) is still expected to be hot, regardless of brains, riches, or anything else. It's a perpetual double standard.

At any rate, the book was interesting, for anyone who hasn't read it, by the way.

I don't know if that's entirely true. Men have a different, yet still culturally implied, set of rules by which society pressures them to fit as well. Ask many balding men, or very thin men, or "not-classically-handsome" men, or poor men (or even redheaded men - they really get a bad rap!)

I do agree that many men just don't care what society has to say about them, thus giving them the appearance of certain freedoms, but there are plenty of men's magazines out there that give the same kind of "idealism" to a man's body. I've talked with many men about it; they're often a bit confused because of these issues.

Gay men, especially: "I'm "gay fat; I'm straight-skinny, but gay fat."

Caitlinhappymeal

it depend if you want to be slimmer/healthier surely? and don’t men have the same feeling towards their own body image? don't women go phwoar when they see a bit of eye candy? doesn't it work both ways? should we be confusing healthy body and attitude towards food and fitness with feminist/sexist issues? should it not apply to both genders? and why am i being socratic? does it only have a place 2012 because people keep perpetuating 1968 ways of thinking? how do i stop doing this socratic thing?????