Islam a real religion?

strongnotskinny121

This is my first post on here, but I love reading the debates.

Watching the new this morning really pissed me off. In Tenn? ( I think), a judge has ordered the halt to the construction of a mosque, first citing the public wasn't given enough notice. Then when the plaintiff lawyer was talking the headline read people were pushing that Islam is NOT a real religion and can't be allowed to build a worship center. NOW, my question is, how can anyone deem what is or isn't a religion, when there are millions of people belonging to this faith!? I can understand if I decided I was a god and got a group of people to follow me, saying I'm not a real religion because of a lack of followers. However, Islam is just a few centuries younger than Christianity, so why is Christianity (the religion of the people trying to block the mosque) a real religion and not Islam? Also, why is this being allowed to take place in AMERICA, the home of the FREE? I'm disgusted our judicial system is being used legally to discriminate against this group of people.

katatak1

I honestly don't know what to say here. Who the hell is stupid enough to claim Islam isn't actually a religion? Do you have a source (clip, article, etc) that you could post?

strongnotskinny121

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2012/05/30/judge-rules-construction-tennessee-mosque-must-stop

\Watch the video "Unwelcome: the Muslims next door" and you will see the people blatantly discriminating against the Muslims.

macpatti

All I saw was one ignorant man asking if Islam is a religion. Of couse, Islam is a religion. That man is ignorant and probably doesn't get out of Tennessee much.

strongnotskinny121

macpatti, What about the old woman implying that by building a mosque we are losing the American way of life? I know she's OLD and from a different time, but America is based on freedom for ALL, not just for old white people who don't want to be around "other cultures."

opus649

Ok I'll bite... just don't flame me without actually reading what I've written please :flowerforyou:

I'm not crazy about the spread of Islam. I wouldn't object to a mosque being built in my town - our first amendment protections are pretty clear. But I can understand the hostility. Islam has some pretty offensive tenets. Now you could make the exact same argument for Christianity, and if I were a Roman in 200 AD I wouldn't have been crazy about the spread of that religion, either. Both Christianity and Islam have been used as justification for the subjugation of people... I just think Islam is newer.

But if you look at the world in general and compare the freedoms held by citizens of countries that are typically considered Judeo-Christian (i.e. the West) against Muslim countries... well... I mean, I'm sorry, would you really want to be a female living in Syria or Egypt? Iran?

And although it is true that the United States isn't "at war" with Islam, the fact is that plenty of adherents to that religion *are* at war with us. And those who aren't do not do much in the way to condemn those who attack us. You have entire countries whose stated purpose is to "end Israel." We are routinely referred to as "the Great Satan."

Again, everyone in the United States is entitled to free practice of their religion and of course they should be allowed to build a mosque without fear of reprisal. But I do understand why some people find it difficult to be tolerant of Islam.

strongnotskinny121

I am not pro-Islam when it comes to the fanatical extents of it anymore than I am pro-Christianity when it comes to the Westboro Baptist church. I feel that there are zealots and fanatics in all religions and they are the ones who give the entire religion a bad name. Just because I don't agree with some of the tenets of the faith, such as treatment of women doesn't meant they shouldn't be allowed to build a mosque in America. When Islam started, they, like the newly formed Christianity movement, were concerned about paternal line being kept pure. This is how the treatment of their women started. The most popular previous religion allowed women great sexual freedoms and the need to know that a child was from the 'father' was important. Also, just like Christianity now, if you read the actual Qur'an or the Christian Bible, many of the tenets now taught are not found in the original literature.

katatak1

Ok I'll bite... just don't flame me without actually reading what I've written please :flowerforyou:

I'm not crazy about the spread of Islam. I wouldn't object to a mosque being built in my town - our first amendment protections are pretty clear. But I can understand the hostility. Islam has some pretty offensive tenets. Now you could make the exact same argument for Christianity, and if I were a Roman in 200 AD I wouldn't have been crazy about the spread of that religion, either. Both Christianity and Islam have been used as justification for the subjugation of people... I just think Islam is newer.

But if you look at the world in general and compare the freedoms held by citizens of countries that are typically considered Judeo-Christian (i.e. the West) against Muslim countries... well... I mean, I'm sorry, would you really want to be a female living in Syria or Egypt? Iran?

And although it is true that the United States isn't "at war" with Islam, the fact is that plenty of adherents to that religion *are* at war with us. And those who aren't do not do much in the way to condemn those who attack us. You have entire countries whose stated purpose is to "end Israel." We are routinely referred to as "the Great Satan."

Again, everyone in the United States is entitled to free practice of their religion and of course they should be allowed to build a mosque without fear of reprisal. But I do understand why some people find it difficult to be tolerant of Islam.

I've read what you've written, and I just don't agree. I don't understand the hostility at all. I understand the fear. I understand the worry. But I cannot understand the hostility. These are American's whose rights are being ignored. While it's nothing compared to the atrocious behavior of America during WWII and our treatment of Japanese-American citizens, it's pretty rough to say that just because they countries of their ancestors and relatives are less free, then we have the rights to take away their freedoms here. I mean, isn't that why they came here? To enjoy our freedoms? And some people think it's fine to take those away just because they are different? I know you aren't saying that, but there are people who are. And don't get me started on Israel. Just one hour of research into the Intifada made me seriously question my previously held beliefs about that long-standing conflict.

opus649

I understand the fear. I understand the worry. But I cannot understand the hostility.

I would argue the third springs from the first two.

opus649

I am not pro-Islam when it comes to the fanatical extents of it anymore than I am pro-Christianity when it comes to the Westboro Baptist church. I feel that there are zealots and fanatics in all religions and they are the ones who give the entire religion a bad name.

Maybe I'm naive, but I think there is a larger segment of Islam represented by groups like al Qaeda and Hamas than Christianity is represented by Westboro. It's probably impossible to quantify... so that's just my opinion, for good or bad.

katatak1

I understand the fear. I understand the worry. But I cannot understand the hostility.

I would argue the third springs from the first two.

I agree wholeheartedly. The difference is one cannot control emotion, but one can control action. That was my point. Fear and worry cannot be controlled. Acting on that fear with hostility CAN be controlled. That's why I can't understand the hostility, because you should be able to recognize that the hostility is unfounded and unfair to those American citizens who have renounced their homeland so that they could enjoy the freedoms we all take for granted. You should choose not to act on your fear with hostility. You should be a grown up about it and accept the fact that people can and will hold a different faith than your own.

opus649

I understand the fear. I understand the worry. But I cannot understand the hostility.

I would argue the third springs from the first two.

I agree wholeheartedly. The difference is one cannot control emotion, but one can control action. That was my point. Fear and worry cannot be controlled. Acting on that fear with hostility CAN be controlled. That's why I can't understand the hostility, because you should be able to recognize that the hostility is unfounded and unfair to those American citizens who have renounced their homeland so that they could enjoy the freedoms we all take for granted. You should choose not to act on your fear with hostility. You should be a grown up about it and accept the fact that people can and will hold a different faith than your own.

Yeah.

macpatti

macpatti, What about the old woman implying that by building a mosque we are losing the American way of life? I know she's OLD and from a different time, but America is based on freedom for ALL, not just for old white people who don't want to be around "other cultures."

I was only addressing the question of whether or not Islam is a religion. Of course I support the rights of people to build mosques. That old, white women was probably afraid of black people at one point, too. It's ignoance. I can certainly understand the fear of the spread of Islam, but we must support freedom of religion in this country.

adrian_indy

Islam is a religion. I've heard this nonsense before that it isn't and it's just pure bias. Not that I am openly endorsing Islam. I'm an atheist, screw Islam. But I say that about all religions. Difference is when I tell a modern christian to screw off, I don't get death threats. With Islam you do. Islam and freedom are currently at odds. As long as they understand that our laws supercede theirs in matters of personal freedoms and violence, have at it. But if they try and start Sharia law and honor killings.....call in the national guard.

strongnotskinny121

I am not pro-Islam when it comes to the fanatical extents of it anymore than I am pro-Christianity when it comes to the Westboro Baptist church. I feel that there are zealots and fanatics in all religions and they are the ones who give the entire religion a bad name.

Maybe I'm naive, but I think there is a larger segment of Islam represented by groups like al Qaeda and Hamas than Christianity is represented by Westboro. It's probably impossible to quantify... so that's just my opinion, for good or bad.

It probably is impossible to quantify, but I do not think that is correct. There is (depending on which website you look at) almost 25% of the world's population practising Islam. If the majority of them were extremeists, I think they would be making more headway in their aims.

strongnotskinny121

Islam is a religion. I've heard this nonsense before that it isn't and it's just pure bias. Not that I am openly endorsing Islam. I'm an atheist, screw Islam. But I say that about all religions. Difference is when I tell a modern christian to screw off, I don't get death threats. With Islam you do. Islam and freedom are currently at odds. As long as they understand that our laws supercede theirs in matters of personal freedoms and violence, have at it. But if they try and start Sharia law and honor killings.....call in the national guard.

I agree, I'm not religious, but everyone has the right to practise it, if they wish, except for trying to enforce Sharia laws. I feel if they wanted that sort of law system they should have stayed in their own country where that IS the law. Not that I agree with that law system. And I understand there are economic oppertunities here, blah, blah, blah, but make a choice economic oppertunites or your religion?

Although. I don't think every Muslim will give you a death threat if you tell them f* off.

greasygriddle_wechnage

I agree, I'm not religious, but everyone has the right to practise it, if they wish, except for trying to enforce Sharia laws.

But there is your dichotomy. Their religion is so intertwined with their "judicial/Sharia law" it's hard to seperate one from the other.

adrian_indy

Islam is a religion. I've heard this nonsense before that it isn't and it's just pure bias. Not that I am openly endorsing Islam. I'm an atheist, screw Islam. But I say that about all religions. Difference is when I tell a modern christian to screw off, I don't get death threats. With Islam you do. Islam and freedom are currently at odds. As long as they understand that our laws supercede theirs in matters of personal freedoms and violence, have at it. But if they try and start Sharia law and honor killings.....call in the national guard.

I agree, I'm not religious, but everyone has the right to practise it, if they wish, except for trying to enforce Sharia laws. I feel if they wanted that sort of law system they should have stayed in their own country where that IS the law. Not that I agree with that law system. And I understand there are economic oppertunities here, blah, blah, blah, but make a choice economic oppertunites or your religion?

Although. I don't think every Muslim will give you a death threat if you tell them f* off.

I don't know, South Park, The Daily Show, and Family Guy have all had death threats for insulting Islam, haven't they. It call comes freedom of religion. Most muslims don't have it. They live in a world where the extremisits have the power and everyone else is under threat of death. I think Islam needs america. Give it a few generations and they will be as fat, lazy and dgenerate as the rest of us.

EvanKeel

The irony of enacting laws barring Sharia law while claiming that Muslims aren't allow to practice their faith is a little staggering. I think people who claim to be Christians can be just as violent as people who follow Islam. The fact that Christian terrorists more often tend to be lone wolves doesn't make much of a difference to me.

Islamic extremists declare holy war on popular media for insulting their religion.

Christian extremists walk into a church and shoot abortion doctors in the head.

I guess the point of making that comparison is that a lot of see evidence of Christian terrorism and may think to ourselves, "Uh, these are crazy people who aren't really Christians." It's possible that there are millions and millions of Muslims who may think the same thing about people who kill in the name of their faith.

macpatti

But there is your dichotomy. Their religion is so intertwined with their "judicial/Sharia law" it's hard to seperate one from the other.

People should have freedom of religion, but that doesn't mean they have the freedom to practice anything within their religion that is against the law of the land, ie. honor killing.

strongnotskinny121

But there is your dichotomy. Their religion is so intertwined with their "judicial/Sharia law" it's hard to seperate one from the other.

People should have freedom of religion, but that doesn't mean they have the freedom to practice anything within their religion that is against the law of the land, ie. honor killing.

I understand for many of them the law is very intertwined with their religion. And that's my point. They moved to America knowing the law of the country doesn't follow the law of their religion. If they want the law of their religion, they need to stay where there is the law of the land. I hate sounding like that, since I hate when people say immigrants need to move back to there home countries, but in this case, when there is such opposites in the law, it's true.

And in a few generations, I agree some of the Muslims will be more lax about their tenets and religion, but not all. I knew a Muslim in college, who her extended family from the Middle East disowned their American counterparts because they allowed her to wear shorts and tank tops. I think there will be another schism in Islam, an American side and a more strict Middle eastern side.

adrian_indy

The irony of enacting laws barring Sharia law while claiming that Muslims aren't allow to practice their faith is a little staggering. I think people who claim to be Christians can be just as violent as people who follow Islam. The fact that Christian terrorists more often tend to be lone wolves doesn't make much of a difference to me.

Islamic extremists declare holy war on popular media for insulting their religion.

Christian extremists walk into a church and shoot abortion doctors in the head.

I guess the point of making that comparison is that a lot of see evidence of Christian terrorism and may think to ourselves, "Uh, these are crazy people who aren't really Christians." It's possible that there are millions and millions of Muslims who may think the same thing about people who kill in the name of their faith.

Well, the comparison can be made, but it can't really be tested because there are so many x-factors and unknowables it is impossible. I'll be the first to acknowledge judeo-christian crimes of the past in a historical debate, but for whatever reasons you don't see the same level of extremism and violence that you see in Islam today. Why is that? Possible answers could be that Islam is fundamentally worshipped in parts of the world that are theocratic, completely silencing the moderates and free thinkers of their generations. We'll never know how many Muslims think that terrorists are insane because they can't speak out.

Freedom of religion tends to be a moderating influence on all sects and types or religion, including the non-believers because of the law. Then you have to look at socio-economic isues. Economies can drive criminal behavior. You also have to look at the ages of Islam compared to Christianity.

EvanKeel

The irony of enacting laws barring Sharia law while claiming that Muslims aren't allow to practice their faith is a little staggering. I think people who claim to be Christians can be just as violent as people who follow Islam. The fact that Christian terrorists more often tend to be lone wolves doesn't make much of a difference to me.

Islamic extremists declare holy war on popular media for insulting their religion.

Christian extremists walk into a church and shoot abortion doctors in the head.

I guess the point of making that comparison is that a lot of see evidence of Christian terrorism and may think to ourselves, "Uh, these are crazy people who aren't really Christians." It's possible that there are millions and millions of Muslims who may think the same thing about people who kill in the name of their faith.

Well, the comparison can be made, but it can't really be tested because there are so many x-factors and unknowables it is impossible. I'll be the first to acknowledge judeo-christian crimes of the past in a historical debate, but for whatever reasons you don't see the same level of extremism and violence that you see in Islam today. Why is that? Possible answers could be that Islam is fundamentally worshipped in parts of the world that are theocratic, completely silencing the moderates and free thinkers of their generations. We'll never know how many Muslims think that terrorists are insane because they can't speak out.

Freedom of religion tends to be a moderating influence on all sects and types or religion, including the non-believers because of the law. Then you have to look at socio-economic isues. Economies can drive criminal behavior. You also have to look at the ages of Islam compared to Christianity.

I guess part of my point that I could stated more clearly is that Christian extremism is just less publicly organized. It's still a very real threat today, and fairly obvious if we know where to look. As time passes the same may happen to Islam. If concepts of separation of church and state seep into that religious culture in the same that ours gives lip service to it, then it will likely remain a threat--it will just move away from official governmental backing.

I guess I would argue that you can see the same level of violence and extremism in Christianity today, it's just organized differently and stays under the radar. I also think that our society is probably more likely to call Christian terrorists something else, like fanatics or mental patients. But the fact is religion is a very real under current there.

adrian_indy

The irony of enacting laws barring Sharia law while claiming that Muslims aren't allow to practice their faith is a little staggering. I think people who claim to be Christians can be just as violent as people who follow Islam. The fact that Christian terrorists more often tend to be lone wolves doesn't make much of a difference to me.

Islamic extremists declare holy war on popular media for insulting their religion.

Christian extremists walk into a church and shoot abortion doctors in the head.

I guess the point of making that comparison is that a lot of see evidence of Christian terrorism and may think to ourselves, "Uh, these are crazy people who aren't really Christians." It's possible that there are millions and millions of Muslims who may think the same thing about people who kill in the name of their faith.

Well, the comparison can be made, but it can't really be tested because there are so many x-factors and unknowables it is impossible. I'll be the first to acknowledge judeo-christian crimes of the past in a historical debate, but for whatever reasons you don't see the same level of extremism and violence that you see in Islam today. Why is that? Possible answers could be that Islam is fundamentally worshipped in parts of the world that are theocratic, completely silencing the moderates and free thinkers of their generations. We'll never know how many Muslims think that terrorists are insane because they can't speak out.

Freedom of religion tends to be a moderating influence on all sects and types or religion, including the non-believers because of the law. Then you have to look at socio-economic isues. Economies can drive criminal behavior. You also have to look at the ages of Islam compared to Christianity.

I guess part of my point that I could stated more clearly is that Christian extremism is just less publicly organized. It's still a very real threat today, and fairly obvious if we know where to look. As time passes the same may happen to Islam. If concepts of separation of church and state seep into that religious culture in the same that ours gives lip service to it, then it will likely remain a threat--it will just move away from official governmental backing.

I guess I would argue that you can see the same level of violence and extremism in Christianity today, it's just organized differently and stays under the radar. I also think that our society is probably more likely to call Christian terrorists something else, like fanatics or mental patients. But the fact is religion is a very real under current there.

I don't think I would ever be one to argue that christian extremism is not a threat, but the two at this stage are completly different as far as violence. Modern christian extremism lends itself to the political process, often lobbying on their own behalf and against those they disagree with (the gay community for example).

Actually, arguing on your behalf, if I was going to make a argument of christian vs. islamic extremism, I would argue the opposite, that christin extremism is MORE organized. Muslim sects who commit acts of terrorism are often radicals that operate in small, independent cells. Al Queda has never been more than a few thousand radicals. On the other hand, if you were to associate GWBs quote that he consulted a "higher father"on the legitamacy of the Iraq war, or our undying support of Israel, we could make the case that the christians are more extreme. But that is if you truly believe that our goals in the Middle East were religious, and not for security or natural resources.

But on the surface, to be fair, a side by side comparison of violence is not comparable. Very few christian preachers, priests, or ministers advocate for the death of their fellow human beings today. Not saying there isn't the random whack job that does, but they are often ridiculed not only by atheists and agnostics such as myself, but by their own christians. And those people tend to have a minimal impact since any violence commited by them or their members on their behalf would be convicted in a court of law. In many muslim countries, on the other hand, the violence, especially against women, is extreme, and while I wouldn't call it acceptable to their fellow muslims, it is tolerated becaus it has to be unless you want to end up dead.

macpatti

I think people who claim to be anything (whether they believe some religious truth-claims or whether they are atheists or whatever) can be as violent as people who follow Islam. Atheist Communists murdered untold millions of religious people in Soviet Russia, China, etc., in the name of their brand of atheism. Violence against others is not a necessary product of religion or the lack of religion, but has more to do with how people learn to deal with their differences with others. Just like bullies in a school playground use force against those they don’t like or those they envy, so it is some people find it difficult to rationally understand and dialogue with others and therefore resort to force. This is not an argument for or against religion, it is simply a psychological fact about human beings that we should all learn to overcome and mature beyond.

adrian_indy

I think people who claim to be anything (whether they believe some religious truth-claims or whether they are atheists or whatever) can be as violent as people who follow Islam. Atheist Communists murdered untold millions of religious people in Soviet Russia, China, etc., in the name of their brand of atheism. Violence against others is not a necessary product of religion or the lack of religion, but has more to do with how people learn to deal with their differences with others. Just like bullies in a school playground use force against those they don’t like or those they envy, so it is some people find it difficult to rationally understand and dialogue with others and therefore resort to force. This is not an argument for or against religion, it is simply a psychological fact about human beings that we should all learn to overcome and mature beyond.

Yeah, but those were the bad atheists.

macpatti

Yeah, but those were the bad atheists.

I'd rather live next door to a "live and let live" atheist than a Christian extremist or a radical Muslim!

adrian_indy

Yeah, but those were the bad atheists.

I'd rather live next door to a "live and let live" atheist than a Christian extremist or a radical Muslim!

Quit hitting on me.

EvanKeel

I think people who claim to be anything (whether they believe some religious truth-claims or whether they are atheists or whatever) can be as violent as people who follow Islam. Atheist Communists murdered untold millions of religious people in Soviet Russia, China, etc., in the name of their brand of atheism. Violence against others is not a necessary product of religion or the lack of religion, but has more to do with how people learn to deal with their differences with others. Just like bullies in a school playground use force against those they don’t like or those they envy, so it is some people find it difficult to rationally understand and dialogue with others and therefore resort to force. This is not an argument for or against religion, it is simply a psychological fact about human beings that we should all learn to overcome and mature beyond.

Unfortunately religion frequently has an irrational quality to it. I'm not saying that's necessarily always a bad thing or that any religious beliefs are somehow inferior to other lines of thinking because they're irrational, but when logic is involved you can frequently have a longer conversation about things..until they stop being logical.

So on the topic of rational dialogue...

When someone kills for no reason other than their religion says it's ok to kill in a specific situation, then we have a problem. There's really no arguing that. You can say it's against he law, or that it violates rights, or that it goes against another religious belief. You can't tell someone that they don't believe something is right or wrong when they do. When someone performs acts according to their religious beliefs that other people consider crimes and they're fine with that because their faith is such that laws don't matter, then we have left rationality. It's an unfortunate part of the irrational nature of faith that can lead people to this kind of justification. Similarly, atheists can also be irrational, but I don't think there's anything about Atheist philosophies that promote irrationality in the same way that religions and faith can. That's not a condemnation of religion so much as my own justification that people of faith should probably be more aware of their own critical thinking skills where their faith is concerned.

EvanKeel

Yeah, but those were the bad atheists.

I'd rather live next door to a "live and let live" atheist than a Christian extremist or a radical Muslim!

Quit hitting on me.

pornstache aside, given your avatar, you're clearly asking for it. *wink, wink*

Azdak

All I saw was one ignorant man asking if Islam is a religion. Of couse, Islam is a religion. That man is ignorant and probably doesn't get out of Tennessee much.

We actually prefer it that way.
Talk about needing a border fence.........