Something that confuses me

Carl01

This statement from Mom2rh in the "code" thread made me think of something that has long perplexed me.

The conundrum is do we over-analyze and perhaps misinterpret things in the beginning? Or do we ignore possible red flags and then get the head slap later when if we had PAID ATTENTION we would have seen the signs?

Lets just stipulate that many to most women over think/analyze (by their admission and yes guys can too) yet they end up with people that are emotional or physical abusers far to often.
I know that people early on will be on their best behavior but a persons core character is always on display so how are those signals not picked up on or reacted to?

By this I mean shortness to people,much anger,belittlement,rude,cold...those displays that are the precursor of abusive behavior as he becomes more comfortable in the situation.
I have mentioned here before the number of times I have heard a lady say that guy X can be such an *kitten* but then is so sweet...

I guess my question is how can one over analyze if a certain statement means such and such but then not think at all about this stuff.

porcelain_doll

My guess is that despite the woman's observations, she wants it to work somehow anyway for whatever reason. She's got hope that the guy will change or that he is just "moody," or she's been told in the past that she is too judgemental or picky, so instead of listening to her gut, she is second-guessing herself. It's hard to find a balance sometimes between picking up on "cues" and over-thinking, and if you are constantly being told by your peers that you give up too soon, are picky, judgemental, etc., then that makes it more difficult, too.

r1ghtpath

are you asking why women stay with abusive men? or men that are entirely way too controlling or jealous?

if so, there isn't really an "easy" answer. i've lived it. i can't say with 100% certainty WHY i stayed. i know when the verbal and emotional abuse started, he treated me like my mom did when i was growing up. so, i didn't see anything really wrong with it. i figured it was "normal." after a couple years, i kept telling myself it would get better after he got a job, then it was after he got a job he liked making the money he wanted to make, then it was after he got the job he liked, making what he wanted to make, with the upward mobility and autonomy he wanted........ so forth and so on.

HOWEVER!! i did NOT label his treatment of me as abusive. it wasn't until after we had separated and i actually started asking people about THEIR marriages than i was told his treatment of me was not "right." it was still months later when i learned of the ' cycle of abuse' that i really came to realize i was in an abusive relationship. there was A LOT of stuff, but like i said, i was raised similarly by my mom ( mostly) and dad.

NOW, since i know what it looks like and i know that there are MANY types of abusive men ( i'm talking like 8 or more!!!!!) i am extra cautious and attentive. if something appears to be a red flag, it's a red flag. if something makes me uncomfortable, then i know it's NOT good. i might be TOO sensitive to some stuff, but, i'd rather be THAT way than not sensitive enough and end up in a similar situation again. the other thing, is that if someone is in an abusive relationship, and never labels it as such or gets help on how to heal and NOT repeat history, she'll keep doing it over and over again.

we tend to stick to people that are familiar and make us "comfortable."

so, long response, sorry!!!!

Carl01

are you asking why women stay with abusive men? or men that are entirely way too controlling or jealous?

Not so much why they stay but how they don`t see it coming although maybe that is a distinction without a difference.

10acity

are you asking why women stay with abusive men? or men that are entirely way too controlling or jealous?

Not so much why they stay but how they don`t see it coming although maybe that is a distinction without a difference.

I wasn't in an abusive relationship, but I was in a relationship with a dude who had (probably still has, what do I know?) no business being in a relationship with anyone before he dealt with his own significant issues.

I totally saw it coming. (I say that all the time, actually.) He was an a-hole to everyone but me. It took him a year to wear me down. Why did I string him along for that year? Despite the hundred or so "red flags" that it was doomed to fail, there was also a crazy (and I do mean crazy) connection. We both fed on the passion and intensity. We got off somehow on the volatility. I imagine it's probably somewhat like addiction : you know exactly how much it sucks coming down, but the high seems more important.

*shrug*

NCTravellingGirl

I don't think I wanted to see it coming. I really liked the guy so when he cancelled things last minute (because he was with someone else I later learned), I just blindly assumed I was expecting too much, often because he would say such things. He talked ALL the time about how much I overanalyzed. There was some truth to it but I also know now it was to make me question my own judgement.

There were flags, but I never ONCE thought of them as flags. My friends told me he was no good and later coworkers I didn't know well eventually started telling me of his habits of dating 4 women an once unbeknownst to those 4.

Perhaps I was naive, but one lessoned I learned was that I tended to see the good in others and ignore the rest, but even more so with coworkers that I started dating. It's like I thought that being a good coworker led me to assume that you were equally as reputive in your personal life. I literally had a friend/ coworker talk all the time about how great he was (at work) so I assumed if she thought so, I could trust her judgement when he started approaching me, haha... MAN, how did he not rob me blind too?!

Mom2rh

are you asking why women stay with abusive men? or men that are entirely way too controlling or jealous?

if so, there isn't really an "easy" answer. i've lived it. i can't say with 100% certainty WHY i stayed. i know when the verbal and emotional abuse started, he treated me like my mom did when i was growing up. so, i didn't see anything really wrong with it. i figured it was "normal." after a couple years, i kept telling myself it would get better after he got a job, then it was after he got a job he liked making the money he wanted to make, then it was after he got the job he liked, making what he wanted to make, with the upward mobility and autonomy he wanted........ so forth and so on.

HOWEVER!! i did NOT label his treatment of me as abusive. it wasn't until after we had separated and i actually started asking people about THEIR marriages than i was told his treatment of me was not "right." it was still months later when i learned of the ' cycle of abuse' that i really came to realize i was in an abusive relationship. there was A LOT of stuff, but like i said, i was raised similarly by my mom ( mostly) and dad.

NOW, since i know what it looks like and i know that there are MANY types of abusive men ( i'm talking like 8 or more!!!!!) i am extra cautious and attentive. if something appears to be a red flag, it's a red flag. if something makes me uncomfortable, then i know it's NOT good. i might be TOO sensitive to some stuff, but, i'd rather be THAT way than not sensitive enough and end up in a similar situation again. the other thing, is that if someone is in an abusive relationship, and never labels it as such or gets help on how to heal and NOT repeat history, she'll keep doing it over and over again.

we tend to stick to people that are familiar and make us "comfortable."

so, long response, sorry!!!!

Lots of what she said.

For me, I guess some came from my family of origin. I think I must have been ready to see myself as flawed, needing to work on myself...which turned into worthless, stupid, whatever. My personality is easy going, accommodating, I hate conflict. In retrospect, I can recall the exact moment I gave my ex all the power in our relationship. I didn't see it that way at the time. I just saw that he wanted me different and I had low self esteem and thought if I "improved" myself I would be successful in this relationship.

I did not talk to anyone about what was going on. I compartmentalized. I had kids. I believed the message that i would be nothing without him.

r1ghtpath

i think a lot of it boils down to the fact that often as kids we hear that we've made someone mad or sad, or upset, or frustrated, or tired. i know when i'm not careful i can slip up and say things like that to my own kids. i try soooo hard to say that *I* am upset, not that THEY MADE ME upset.

so, as we get older, we hear it from our friends, teachers, peers, adults in our lives, coaches, etc. WE have made someone feel something. when the fact actually is that WE didn't make them feel that way, THEY CHOSE to feel that way......

fast forward to a relationship and we say it to one another. "you're pissing me off." " you make me sad." " you frustrate me." etc. NO WE DON"T. you might get pissed, sad, or frustrated, but those emotions are YOUR choice to have. however, most of us don't naturally feel that way or get that. we do internalize it and take responsibility for someone else's emotions.

what i was taught in my domestic violence support group, was that we are NOT responsible FOR someone else's emotions we only have to be responsible TO others. meaning, we can be honest and let the other person take it as they may but we are not to intentionally hurt someone or cause them harm. once you can successfully do that, it becomes easier to identify those you should NOT be with. :-)

there are an awful lot of people out there that feel the need to hold others responsible for THEIR emotions. my own kids do it, and their dad is VERY big on placing blame. there is ALWAYS someone to blame for EVERYTHING, and it's NEVER him!!!! amazing how that work, eh?

JanieJack

are you asking why women stay with abusive men? or men that are entirely way too controlling or jealous?

Not so much why they stay but how they don`t see it coming although maybe that is a distinction without a difference.

Because some of these manipulative guys are so good at being what you want that you don't see it coming. And when it does come, you think it's your fault and if you were just better you'd get back to the happy situation you used to have. It takes a lot to open someone's eyes, and takes even more to get the strength and confidence to leave.

And plus, it feels like most of the time you listen to your gut trying to help you avoid red flags, all these people others tell you to "live a little," "give it a chance," or "stop being so over-reactive/anal," "stop expecting too much," etc.

I honestly didn't even realize some of what happened in my past was "abusive" until I went to counseling for my son after the divorce. They couldn't understand why a smart, accomplished, woman didn't see this sooner.

Daisy_Cutter

Not so much why they stay but how they don`t see it coming although maybe that is a distinction without a difference.

I actually did see the red flags and knew I shouldn't marry my ex. They didn't present themselves or I didn't really notice until about 2 or 3 weeks before we got married. I talked myself into thinking I had pre-wedding jitters. However, I knew he was abusive and had seen it, like I said a few weeks prior to getting married.

I didn't want to let people down. ALL of our family was out of state and everyone had made such an investment that I didn't want to let anyone down.

Also I know I was afraid to break off our engagement. I was 26 -- I thought I was getting "old" and needed to settle down. I did not have the confidence I have now and I settled for a man that I knew would have me rather than being alone and starting over.

It was not worth the price I paid. However -- my girls are fantastic so I choose to see them as my priceless gems....

flimflamfloz

Lets just stipulate that many to most women over think/analyze (by their admission and yes guys can too) yet they end up with people that are emotional or physical abusers far to often.

"Women end up with emotional/physical male abusers far too often": I guess part of that is also that it is far easier for a man to be the abuser than the abused.
Men are stronger physically and required to "make the decisions" by society, so it's easier for both uninformed men and women to interpret and analyse abusive behaviour as a "normal behaviour".
Would men, should roles be reversed, be in a better spot? I doubt it. Men (even with a man's brain) would probably be the ones abused "too often".

I'm not trying to blame society here, just pointing out that statistically, it is bound to happen that a good proportion of women will end up with emotional/physical abusers and so I am not sure that there is a failure on their part to spot the signs (Not that I'm not aware that men can be abused too - but certainly a higher proportion of women than the proportion of men).

shammxo

are you asking why women stay with abusive men? or men that are entirely way too controlling or jealous?

Not so much why they stay but how they don`t see it coming although maybe that is a distinction without a difference.

Because some of these manipulative guys are so good at being what you want that you don't see it coming. And when it does come, you think it's your fault and if you were just better you'd get back to the happy situation you used to have. It takes a lot to open someone's eyes, and takes even more to get the strength and confidence to leave.

And plus, it feels like most of the time you listen to your gut trying to help you avoid red flags, all these people others tell you to "live a little," "give it a chance," or "stop being so over-reactive/anal," "stop expecting too much," etc.

I honestly didn't even realize some of what happened in my past was "abusive" until I went to counseling for my son after the divorce. They couldn't understand why a smart, accomplished, woman didn't see this sooner.

This. They present themselves as exactly what you want... And a lot of the time it builds up little by little in the form of subtle verbal assaults, to full on psychological abuse (the manipulation and control) until it escalates to the point of actual physical abuse.

I was worn down to the point of thinking that nobody else was ever going to want me because I was a "slut" or a "*****". But when it went too far, there was physical and psychological damage done to me that I can never undo. I'm so thankful that I was able to take a step back and realize that I'd rather be alone than be with someone who made me feel that way.

Dating sucks now because I red flag everything, and I guess that's why I tend to over analyze.. Which I never did before.

AnnaPixie

Most of the time we live in 'hope'! That's why we ignore signs. Even though the way some people talk about deal breakers and red flags on this forum you'd think we never ignore them!! But in reality, it's very easy to overlook someone's badness in favour of someone's goodness! And all for the sake of love

Over analysing something doesnt really have anything to do with it. You can come to the right or wrong conclusion and still ignore it!!

I think people just like to process their thoughts. Men mostly process internally. Women mostly process externally. Some women do it constantly as a way of understanding and reassurance, and others don't. I think men are just more laid back (secure) about things and less vociferous in general so it might appear they do it less. But men have just as many worries as women. Perhaps just about different things!?

Like a woman will worry about why the texts stopped, while a man will be worrying about why he lost his erection, while a woman won't worry about his erection as long as he texts!! :laugh:

r1ghtpath

I honestly didn't even realize some of what happened in my past was "abusive" until I went to counseling for my son after the divorce. They couldn't understand why a smart, accomplished, woman didn't see this sooner.

This. They present themselves as exactly what you want... And a lot of the time it builds up little by little in the form of subtle verbal assaults, to full on psychological abuse (the manipulation and control) until it escalates to the point of actual physical abuse.

I was worn down to the point of thinking that nobody else was ever going to want me because I was a "slut" or a "*****". But when it went too far, there was physical and psychological damage done to me that I can never undo. I'm so thankful that I was able to take a step back and realize that I'd rather be alone than be with someone who made me feel that way.

Dating sucks now because I red flag everything, and I guess that's why I tend to over analyze.. Which I never did before.

i had become such a different person it was insane. i did not like any part of myself. if you had asked me what my good qualities were i would not have been able to come up with even one. my mantra, for the last 6 yrs of my marriage was " i suck as a human being." you never would have guessed i graduated with my BSN and worked in a NICU and peds oncology prior to marriage and kids. i was so certain i was as dumb and incompetent as my ex told me i was.

realizing i was in an abusive relationship, like actually knowing what that was and seeing the cycle of abuse the first time was an eye opening and liberating experience. scary as all get up, but freeing too!!!! i had a name for it. and it wasn't ME. i wasn't all the things he was telling me i was. and i could move forward and heal!!!! most of all, i knew i wasn't crazy!!!! abusive men LOVe to make you feel totally and completely crazy!!!

i too red flag everything. i also look for characteristics of the different types of abusers. for those that have been through this " why does he do that" by lundy bancroft is a great book to read and use. it will make you sick to your stomach, you might throw up reading it, but it will help you not make the same mistake again!

i'm ok being alone. i'm ok not dating. if i'm meant to be in a relationship again, it will happen when i'm good and ready and open to it :-)

RunningDirty

This too is is not a gender issue!

Mom2rh

I honestly didn't even realize some of what happened in my past was "abusive" until I went to counseling for my son after the divorce. They couldn't understand why a smart, accomplished, woman didn't see this sooner.

This. They present themselves as exactly what you want... And a lot of the time it builds up little by little in the form of subtle verbal assaults, to full on psychological abuse (the manipulation and control) until it escalates to the point of actual physical abuse.

I was worn down to the point of thinking that nobody else was ever going to want me because I was a "slut" or a "*****". But when it went too far, there was physical and psychological damage done to me that I can never undo. I'm so thankful that I was able to take a step back and realize that I'd rather be alone than be with someone who made me feel that way.

Dating sucks now because I red flag everything, and I guess that's why I tend to over analyze.. Which I never did before.

i had become such a different person it was insane. i did not like any part of myself. if you had asked me what my good qualities were i would not have been able to come up with even one. my mantra, for the last 6 yrs of my marriage was " i suck as a human being." you never would have guessed i graduated with my BSN and worked in a NICU and peds oncology prior to marriage and kids. i was so certain i was as dumb and incompetent as my ex told me i was.

realizing i was in an abusive relationship, like actually knowing what that was and seeing the cycle of abuse the first time was an eye opening and liberating experience. scary as all get up, but freeing too!!!! i had a name for it. and it wasn't ME. i wasn't all the things he was telling me i was. and i could move forward and heal!!!! most of all, i knew i wasn't crazy!!!! abusive men LOVe to make you feel totally and completely crazy!!!

i too red flag everything. i also look for characteristics of the different types of abusers. for those that have been through this " why does he do that" by lundy bancroft is a great book to read and use. it will make you sick to your stomach, you might throw up reading it, but it will help you not make the same mistake again!

i'm ok being alone. i'm ok not dating. if i'm meant to be in a relationship again, it will happen when i'm good and ready and open to it :-)

I'm going to get that book. The book that opened my eyes was "Ditch That Jerk." Can't remember the author at the moment. The title is unfortunate because it is so provocative. But it was such an eye opener for me...not just what he was doing WAS abuse but WHY he does it. (Control.)

The struggle for me will be, how can I be the easy going, accommodating person I want to be, but in a healthy way? But I'm not worried so much about dating at the moment as I am about redefining myself and being who I am supposed to be. My ex threw at me yesterday "You never developed yourself as a person in our marriage." Blaming me again for his abuse. I'm pretty sure I was just surviving and trying to keep him from getting mad. Not much room for lofty goals and writing the great American novel. But I'm digressing...

r1ghtpath

oh i have stories STILL and we haven't lived together since aug 2009! most recently he told someone i was TOO carefree and he basically told me he got his lawyer involved to address my poor parenting. he can take all 5 kids to a water part ( huge water park) by himself, but apparently i am not trustworthy enough to let my kids play in my backyard :-)

he told a parenting coordinator that he can question my parenting just like he would any other babysitter or daycare provider. she promptly corrected him that i am NOT a baby sitter nor am i a daycare provider. i'm the MOTHER, who has been home with her 5 kids for 10 years!!!!!!

abusive men often believe that we would perish if it were not for them. they are saving us from our own stupidity and poor choices. it's a good book. after you read it let me know, i'll tell you the three abusive types my ex fits into most.

shammxo

oh i have stories STILL and we haven't lived together since aug 2009! most recently he told someone i was TOO carefree and he basically told me he got his lawyer involved to address my poor parenting. he can take all 5 kids to a water part ( huge water park) by himself, but apparently i am not trustworthy enough to let my kids play in my backyard :-)

he told a parenting coordinator that he can question my parenting just like he would any other babysitter or daycare provider. she promptly corrected him that i am NOT a baby sitter nor am i a daycare provider. i'm the MOTHER, who has been home with her 5 kids for 10 years!!!!!!

abusive men often believe that we would perish if it were not for them. they are saving us from our own stupidity and poor choices. it's a good book. after you read it let me know, i'll tell you the three abusive types my ex fits into most.

Sometimes I feel like they'll never go away.
I was out with a male friend of mine a while and we ran into my ex boyfriend... He had obviously been drinking and must have thought we were on a date because he asked my friend if he knew what a "little skank" I was. He's left me alone since January, though. My dad had to threaten legal action. That has been a blessing, but I still avoid certain places altogether.

Nerple

Sometimes I feel like they'll never go away.
I was out with a male friend of mine a while and we ran into my ex boyfriend... He had obviously been drinking and must have thought we were on a date because he asked my friend if he knew what a "little skank" I was. He's left me alone since January, though. My dad had to threaten legal action. That has been a blessing, but I still avoid certain places altogether.

My sister dated a dip**** like this years ago. Luckily a mutual friend finally convinced her after a few weeks to go to the police and get a restraining order which scraed him away.