Why is Scientology kookier than the Catholic church?
LemonSnap
Posts: 186 Member
Suri it can't be true, TomKat is no more.
And one of the speculated reasons is that Katie would prefer her daughter raised as a Catholic rather than a Scientologist.
Why would Catholicism be preferable to Scientology?
And one of the speculated reasons is that Katie would prefer her daughter raised as a Catholic rather than a Scientologist.
Why would Catholicism be preferable to Scientology?
0
Replies
-
For a number of reasons,
Scientology is a cult, one which directly influences it's members to not associate with people outside of it - it uses various known manipulation techniques (love bombing, social cutting people off, advising against viewing material on-line, information restriction & near slave labour level workers).
I don't like the Catholic church either, but all groups must be judged on it's merits & flaws - I'm yet to see any merits come from Scientology - at least the churches do get involved in a large amount of charity work.0 -
I once read a website for families of people in cults. The website provided a list of differences between religions and cults. I don't remember all of them, but some of them were:
-Religions work for the benefit of all members, whereas cults primarily benefit one person at the top
-Religions encourage followers to participate in the community, while cults encourage members to separate from society
-Religions promote family, whereas cults encourage members to avoid family who are not in the cult
-Religions encourage followers to think about their beliefs, but cults tell people what to believe and don't allow them to question0 -
I once read a website for families of people in cults. The website provided a list of differences between religions and cults. I don't remember all of them, but some of them were:
-Religions work for the benefit of all members, whereas cults primarily benefit one person at the top
-Religions encourage followers to participate in the community, while cults encourage members to separate from society
-Religions promote family, whereas cults encourage members to avoid family who are not in the cult
-Religions encourage followers to think about their beliefs, but cults tell people what to believe and don't allow them to question
You are assuming Scientology is a cult. There are many high profile individuals in Scientology.
And this statement:
cults tell people what to believe and don't allow them to question.
is typical of the Catholic church.0 -
For a number of reasons,
Scientology is a cult, one which directly influences it's members to not associate with people outside of it - it uses various known manipulation techniques (love bombing, social cutting people off, advising against viewing material on-line, information restriction & near slave labour level workers).
I don't like the Catholic church either, but all groups must be judged on it's merits & flaws - I'm yet to see any merits come from Scientology - at least the churches do get involved in a large amount of charity work.
Thanks for your response elmarko. I have examples of where the Catholic church uses love bombing, social cutting people off, advising against viewing material on-line, information restriction & near slave labour level workers, but am on my way out. Will provide a detailed reply later.0 -
Why would having many high-profile individuals make Scientology not a cult?
I would also disagree with your assertion that the Catholic Church doesn't allow people to question. Of course it tells people what to believe (religions have BELIEFS after all), but even the doctrine of papal infallibility is very limited in scope. There's a reason so many people will describe themselves as lapsed Catholics, but former Scientologists tell stories of physical intimidation against leaving.0 -
Exactly, it's complex.Why would having many high-profile individuals make Scientology not a cult?
I would also disagree with your assertion that the Catholic Church doesn't allow people to question. Of course it tells people what to believe (religions have BELIEFS after all), but even the doctrine of papal infallibility is very limited in scope. There's a reason so many people will describe themselves as lapsed Catholics, but former Scientologists tell stories of physical intimidation against leaving.
Catholicism is so big you will have some small parts which are as extreme as Scientology - but the main-steam Catholic Church isn't the same as the core of Scientology (in regards to possessing cult like traits).
Punishment for leaving is a key part, extreme isolationism etc - while I'm sure you will be able to find examples of this occurring in any major religion, but we need to see it's the standard/promoted by the head of a organisation.
I would agree that fundamentalists from all religions are almost indistinguishable from cults - like for example, in fundamentalist Islam the punishment for apostasy is death, girls suffer from genital mutilation.
I don't think the popularity of any group should inter-fear with our objective judgement of it.0 -
Scientology requires money to get into the higher levels of the organization.
Of course, Catholics ask for tithes, but they do allow anyone of any financial status to attend.0 -
Scientology requires money to get into the higher levels of the organization.
Of course, Catholics ask for tithes, but they do allow anyone of any financial status to attend.
I went to Catholic School for one year.
When I was 6, our Catholic Church/School built a dorm style living quarters for the Nuns and asked for donations of plates, silverware, etc. for the communal kitchen. We were quite poor, but my mother boxed up half of our own stuff from our kitchen and took it to them. They turned her away and told her that they had a specific pattern, etc. and where we could purchase place settings. My parents could not afford it.
The following year, when my sister was 6 and old enough to enter into the Catholic School, my parents were informed that there was not room for her. My Father believed that my sister was denied entry, because we were not able to donate the previous year to the Church. He pulled me out of Catholic School and told them now they had room for other kids, because none of his would be attending. It was almost 40 years before my Father and Mother ever attended Catholic services again.
Catholicism is no different that Scientology. Money Talks. They are both cults.0 -
I've read a lot from people who left Scientology who were not celebrities. They are basically enslaved while members and some have been locked up when they tried to leave or pursued after they got out and their families punished for them leaving.
As theology, all religion to me is the same. I mean, you believe what you believe and it's none of my business. But it crosses a line when the religion becomes a prison.0 -
Scientology requires money to get into the higher levels of the organization.
Of course, Catholics ask for tithes, but they do allow anyone of any financial status to attend.
I went to Catholic School for one year.
When I was 6, our Catholic Church/School built a dorm style living quarters for the Nuns and asked for donations of plates, silverware, etc. for the communal kitchen. We were quite poor, but my mother boxed up half of our own stuff from our kitchen and took it to them. They turned her away and told her that they had a specific pattern, etc. and where we could purchase place settings. My parents could not afford it.
The following year, when my sister was 6 and old enough to enter into the Catholic School, my parents were informed that there was not room for her. My Father believed that my sister was denied entry, because we were not able to donate the previous year to the Church. He pulled me out of Catholic School and told them now they had room for other kids, because none of his would be attending. It was almost 40 years before my Father and Mother ever attended Catholic services again.
Catholicism is no different that Scientology. Money Talks. They are both cults.
That's interesting because most of the kids I knew who went to Catholic school were there on full scholarship and paid nothing.
One's experience with the Catholic Church can depend entirely on your parish and the priests.0 -
Oh! Oh! Funny story about Scientology.
They had a little headquarters type place in my town when I was growing up. I was quite young at the time, so all I know is it was this green house and they would stand outside and beckon people in to take their personality tests. My parents have a very strange sense of humor, so one day I was walking with my dad and they called him in and he went. (I just remember being really bored and they gave me a balloon.)
Anyway, this test was multiple choice where you answered the questions by filling in those little bubble scanner sheets. My father didn't actually read any of them and just randomly filled in bubbles. The assessment they gave him was that he was unconscious.0 -
[/quote]
[/quote]
"That's interesting because most of the kids I knew who went to Catholic school were there on full scholarship and paid nothing.
One's experience with the Catholic Church can depend entirely on your parish and the priests."
[/quote]
[/quote]
I was too young to know the finances. They may have paid nothing, or they may have paid with the help of my Fathers' parents. I know that when my parents separated from the Church is cause a riff with my Grandparents.
My father had very serious health issue and slipped into a coma for several months. About 10 years ago. when he came out of it, he claimed to have made contact with God. He went back to the Catholic Church after many decades. He passed on a couple years later. My Mother went to the Priest and asked him to speak at my Fathers' funeral. He wouldn't. It hurt her.
I have no use for the Catholic Church. Or organised religion for that matter.0 -
That's interesting because most of the kids I knew who went to Catholic school were there on full scholarship and paid nothing.
One's experience with the Catholic Church can depend entirely on your parish and the priests."I was too young to know the finances. They may have paid nothing, or they may have paid with the help of my Fathers' parents. I know that when my parents separated from the Church is cause a riff with my Grandparents.
My father had very serious health issue and slipped into a coma for several months. About 10 years ago. when he came out of it, he claimed to have made contact with God. He went back to the Catholic Church after many decades. He passed on a couple years later. My Mother went to the Priest and asked him to speak at my Fathers' funeral. He wouldn't. It hurt her.
I have no use for the Catholic Church. Or organised religion for that matter.
Sounds like you had a very bad priest. I'm not Catholic but most of my friends are or were and my mom went to Catholic school from kindergarten through high school (my grandmother is full-blooded, first generation Italian, so obviously!). My aunt divorced her first husband, who she was married to for only two years, no children and he cheated and beat her. Her second husband was raised Methodist and was also divorced (no kids).
They were married more than 30 years with four children and my aunt decided to go back to the church. The first priest she saw was very, very nasty to her (sounds like your mother's priest) and she went away in tears, it was so awful. But they ended up finding a new parish with a wonderful, understanding and forgiving priest and are very happy with it now. It REALLY does come down to the priest and the parish.
Personally, I have a lot of issues with the theology of most organized religions, so would never be a member of any of them, but the problems mostly lie with the people you deal with. It's sad because the Catholic Church does often do a lot of good along with the bad. The priest sex abuse scandal, though, is a tough thing to get over. Not that sexual abuse happened, but the Church's response.0 -
That's interesting because most of the kids I knew who went to Catholic school were there on full scholarship and paid nothing.
One's experience with the Catholic Church can depend entirely on your parish and the priests."I was too young to know the finances. They may have paid nothing, or they may have paid with the help of my Fathers' parents. I know that when my parents separated from the Church is cause a riff with my Grandparents.
My father had very serious health issue and slipped into a coma for several months. About 10 years ago. when he came out of it, he claimed to have made contact with God. He went back to the Catholic Church after many decades. He passed on a couple years later. My Mother went to the Priest and asked him to speak at my Fathers' funeral. He wouldn't. It hurt her.
I have no use for the Catholic Church. Or organised religion for that matter.
Sounds like you had a very bad priest. I'm not Catholic but most of my friends are or were and my mom went to Catholic school from kindergarten through high school (my grandmother is full-blooded, first generation Italian, so obviously!). My aunt divorced her first husband, who she was married to for only two years, no children and he cheated and beat her. Her second husband was raised Methodist and was also divorced (no kids).
They were married more than 30 years with four children and my aunt decided to go back to the church. The first priest she saw was very, very nasty to her (sounds like your mother's priest) and she went away in tears, it was so awful. But they ended up finding a new parish with a wonderful, understanding and forgiving priest and are very happy with it now. It REALLY does come down to the priest and the parish.
Personally, I have a lot of issues with the theology of most organized religions, so would never be a member of any of them, but the problems mostly lie with the people you deal with. It's sad because the Catholic Church does often do a lot of good along with the bad. The priest sex abuse scandal, though, is a tough thing to get over. Not that sexual abuse happened, but the Church's response.
I agree with you to a point. People do good. If those people happen to be in a postion to help others then that organization does good too.
More often than not, however, most organizations are looking out for the members of that organization and not individuals. It's not religion I have a problem with; it's gangs. I define gangs as groups of people who place their oraganization over the individual. Whether it be the Catholic Church, Mormons, Scientologists, Crips, Bloods, Republicans, Democrats, Boy Scouts, the NAACP or VFW.0 -
Kookier how? Their beliefs are completely strange to me as are every other religions. And like all other religions, I agree with some of their doctrine, some I don't. I can not say whether or not they do good works, I have yet to hear of any of their charity work ( never looked into it, not saying it doesn't happen). But even if they don't do charity, they also haven't commited any atrocities or evils other than telling Brook Shields she didn't need anti-depressants for post partum. That's pretty mild compared to telling Africans that rubbers are worse than AIDS in they eyes of god.0
-
Last I checked, both AIDS and depression are fatal diseases. Just my 2 cents to derail the discussion.Kookier how? Their beliefs are completely strange to me as are every other religions. And like all other religions, I agree with some of their doctrine, some I don't. I can not say whether or not they do good works, I have yet to hear of any of their charity work ( never looked into it, not saying it doesn't happen). But even if they don't do charity, they also haven't commited any atrocities or evils other than telling Brook Shields she didn't need anti-depressants for post partum. That's pretty mild compared to telling Africans that rubbers are worse than AIDS in they eyes of god.
In any event, you should check into what people who have left Scientology have to say about it. You leave the Catholic Church, they believe you go to hell, but they can't stop you. You try to leave Scientology, and it's a whole other ballgame.0 -
Quote from "Cousins".
Vince(Lloyd Bridges): God makes me nervous when you get him indoors.0 -
Meh, give scientology a millennium and I think they'll probably seem on par with each other on the kooky scale.0
-
Last I checked, both AIDS and depression are fatal diseases. Just my 2 cents to derail the discussion.Kookier how? Their beliefs are completely strange to me as are every other religions. And like all other religions, I agree with some of their doctrine, some I don't. I can not say whether or not they do good works, I have yet to hear of any of their charity work ( never looked into it, not saying it doesn't happen). But even if they don't do charity, they also haven't commited any atrocities or evils other than telling Brook Shields she didn't need anti-depressants for post partum. That's pretty mild compared to telling Africans that rubbers are worse than AIDS in they eyes of god.
In any event, you should check into what people who have left Scientology have to say about it. You leave the Catholic Church, they believe you go to hell, but they can't stop you. You try to leave Scientology, and it's a whole other ballgame.
Depression has many different degrees and can be treated. You can be alittle depressed. Only Magic Johnson has a little AIDS.0 -
Meh... I find both to be rather "kooky"... From the outside looking in, both can look quite similar... So I would have to wonder what is happening behind closed doors....0
-
You obviously don't know much about the Catholic church.You leave the Catholic Church, they believe you go to hell, but they can't stop you.0 -
Meh... I find both to be rather "kooky"... From the outside looking in, both can look quite similar
There is a vast difference between them. Catholicism is the largest branch of Christianity, a religion that grounds itself in the ancient Judeo-Christian tradition that has proven its personal, social, and cultural power to provide meaning, structure, context/framework, moral guidance, etc., to human beings for thousands of years.
Scientology is a recent movement that is largely secretive (in contrast to the public nature of the contents of Catholic faith), unproven, and based on, apparently, a rather dubious collection of ideas and science fiction. The endurance and widespread appeal of the Christian world-view sets it apart from Scientology in a huge way.
You may not agree with Christianity and you might flippantly say Christianity is guilty of everything I’ve said about Scientology but I’m sure that is a surface response by someone who has not really familiar with the depths of Christianity. Christianity includes countless important ideas, events, persons, etc., that have shaped and provided the foundation for many of the deepest values of the modern world. I don’t find anything comparable in Scientology.0 -
Meh... I find both to be rather "kooky"... From the outside looking in, both can look quite similar
There is a vast difference between them. Catholicism is the largest branch of Christianity, a religion that grounds itself in the ancient Judeo-Christian tradition that has proven its personal, social, and cultural power to provide meaning, structure, context/framework, moral guidance, etc., to human beings for thousands of years.
Scientology is a recent movement that is largely secretive (in contrast to the public nature of the contents of Catholic faith), unproven, and based on, apparently, a rather dubious collection of ideas and science fiction. The endurance and widespread appeal of the Christian world-view sets it apart from Scientology in a huge way.
You may not agree with Christianity and you might flippantly say Christianity is guilty of everything I’ve said about Scientology but I’m sure that is a surface response by someone who has not really familiar with the depths of Christianity. Christianity includes countless important ideas, events, persons, etc., that have shaped and provided the foundation for many of the deepest values of the modern world. I don’t find anything comparable in Scientology.
I don't want to attack Christianity because, honestly, I don't have a problem with the faith itself. But there was a time when Christianity WAS all those things. It's entirely possible that 2,000 years from now, you could say the same about Scientology that you just said about Christianity and there will be a new religion with which to compare to Scientology, which by then might be the largest and most accepted religion in the world.
That's the thing about religion -- it all started somewhere.
But, as I said above, former Scientologists have exposed some very awful things about that faith and I can understand Katie Holmes not wanting her child raised in it as opposed to Catholicism.0 -
Meh... I find both to be rather "kooky"... From the outside looking in, both can look quite similar
There is a vast difference between them. Catholicism is the largest branch of Christianity, a religion that grounds itself in the ancient Judeo-Christian tradition that has proven its personal, social, and cultural power to provide meaning, structure, context/framework, moral guidance, etc., to human beings for thousands of years.
Scientology is a recent movement that is largely secretive (in contrast to the public nature of the contents of Catholic faith), unproven, and based on, apparently, a rather dubious collection of ideas and science fiction. The endurance and widespread appeal of the Christian world-view sets it apart from Scientology in a huge way.
You may not agree with Christianity and you might flippantly say Christianity is guilty of everything I’ve said about Scientology but I’m sure that is a surface response by someone who has not really familiar with the depths of Christianity. Christianity includes countless important ideas, events, persons, etc., that have shaped and provided the foundation for many of the deepest values of the modern world. I don’t find anything comparable in Scientology.
I am a Christian... Baptist in fact, and my dad was on par to become a Catholic Priest (but is obviously not). But when someone doesn't understand faith or subscribe to one, then it all looks the same from the outside. Personally, I find "praying" (using this term loosely) to statues as kooky (that is how I see the blatant praying to God through the Mother Mary as being), just as I do the belief that aliens are going to take you away to some obscure planet... but to someone that doesn't believe in God or space aliens, it can all look weird and kooky....
And yes, I realize that Christians, and particularly Catholics, have done a lot of great things for culture and society, things like hospitals and public education (shoot even women's rights stemmed from prohibition)... but those things almost always take a back seat to the infighting and wars that have been waged in the name of Christ.0 -
You may not agree with Christianity and you might flippantly say Christianity is guilty of everything I’ve said about Scientology but I’m sure that is a surface response by someone who has not really familiar with the depths of Christianity. Christianity includes countless important ideas, events, persons, etc., that have shaped and provided the foundation for many of the deepest values of the modern world. I don’t find anything comparable in Scientology.
I'm not sure it's all that valuable to even take a historical view when comparing the two. Mainstream Catholicism is a bit different today than it was centuries ago. For example, I assume Catholics no longer feel that murdering Protestants is justified through religious beliefs (or vice versa for that matter). There's a big cultural component that plays into religion and so religions change as culture changes.
Not to open another can of worms, but it's like saying that our founding fathers were Christian. Well yes, culturally they were Christian because of their education, but they were influenced just as strongly by the Enlightenment. So, to many people today, they might not qualify as "true Christians."
I assume Scientology seems stranger now because of it's connection to science fiction, but really that's just stories in the end. Much of Christianity is built on stories, stories and faith. Faith is faith. Once you get enough people to believe something is true, it's less strange.0 -
I am a Christian... Baptist in fact, and my dad was on par to become a Catholic Priest (but is obviously not). But when someone doesn't understand faith or subscribe to one, then it all looks the same from the outside. Personally, I find "praying" (using this term loosely) to statues as kooky (that is how I see the blatant praying to God through the Mother Mary as being), just as I do the belief that aliens are going to take you away to some obscure planet... but to someone that doesn't believe in God or space aliens, it can all look weird and kooky....
And yes, I realize that Christians, and particularly Catholics, have done a lot of great things for culture and society, things like hospitals and public education (shoot even women's rights stemmed from prohibition)... but those things almost always take a back seat to the infighting and wars that have been waged in the name of Christ.
I simply don’t know what you mean when you say that the good accomplished by the Church takes a “back seat” to the infighting and wars, etc. That strikes me as totally groundless. Every day there are countless good deeds done by Catholics. Yesterday millions of people went to Church. Today many people are serving the poor, the hurting, the dying, etc. Just because the media focuses on “infighting” and negative historical images doesn’t mean that this is what dominates the Catholic life. I live almost every day of my life without seeing any of what you refer to (as do most Catholics, I suspect). Outside perception of what is going on in the Catholic Church is largely fueled by media images that are nearly always designed to smear the Church and are simply not fair.
Concerning “prayer to saints,” I suspect that you as a Baptist don’t find it “kooky” to ask your other fellow Christians to pray for you. I think it is a natural thing for people to ask people they respect and admire to pray on their behalf. Catholics believe that death does not divide the unity created by the Holy Spirit and therefore we can ask holy people both in this world and those who have passed beyond it to pray for us. I don’t find anything particularly kooky about that. Regarding aliens, etc., I do find that kooky since it is not grounded in anything I have any reason to believe in. The saints are people whose lives continues to have effect in this world and I will say the same about Jesus, of course. Aliens, well, I don’t see any reason to think speculation on them is grounded in anything “real.”0 -
If I want to read the Bible, I can go to a Catholic church and sit down and read the Bible, for free. If I have questions, I can ask a member of the church, a priest (if one is there), people working or volunteering, other members, etc. If I want to start going to the Catholic church regularly, I am free to do so, by simply walking into the church, and attending services. And if I want to take it a step further, I can be baptized for free.
Can the same be said for Scientology?0 -
Can the same be said for Scientology?
Does that make Catholicism less kooky, though?0 -
Can the same be said for Scientology?
Does that make Catholicism less kooky, though?
Oops. My post was meant to reply to an earlier post that basically stated they were both cults. My bad!:blushing:
Personally, Catholicism is less kooky to me than Scientology. I have many reasons why, but, they're all personal reasons, through both life experiences and through education. Finding something kooky is an opinion...there is no right or wrong answer.0 -
I'm not sure it's all that valuable to even take a historical view when comparing the two. Mainstream Catholicism is a bit different today than it was centuries ago. For example, I assume Catholics no longer feel that murdering Protestants is justified through religious beliefs (or vice versa for that matter). There's a big cultural component that plays into religion and so religions change as culture changes.
Not to open another can of worms, but it's like saying that our founding fathers were Christian. Well yes, culturally they were Christian because of their education, but they were influenced just as strongly by the Enlightenment. So, to many people today, they might not qualify as "true Christians."
I assume Scientology seems stranger now because of it's connection to science fiction, but really that's just stories in the end. Much of Christianity is built on stories, stories and faith. Faith is faith. Once you get enough people to believe something is true, it's less strange.
I have problems with almost everything your wrote. Your first paragraph is almost like me saying: “I assume Baptist don’t think it’s okay to torture animals and beat their wives anymore, but…” Where in the world did you get the claim that Catholics once thought it was okay to “murder” Protestants? I do recall some wars where Catholics and Protestants fought against each other (always connected with very intricate political conflicts and otherwise). Your comments only reinforce my suspicion that you are arguing against “Catholicism” without really understanding what it is.
Of course if someone grows up being told something that others think is “strange” he/she will not think it is strange. That’s precisely the point, though. Christianity is based on stories that are grounded in history. Furthermore, Christian faith is not merely a collection of stories but stories that communicate truths that provide a meaningful and compelling world-view. I do not think every viewpoint can be as compelling, consistent and meaningful and that is why most religious perspectives that have existed in the past have simply died. I think equating all religious perspectives and not seeing that they have varying levels of explanatory power and meaningfulness is just wrong.0
