Gender Roles
daffodilsoup
Posts: 1,972 Member
At least in the United States, gender roles and separation are defined from birth - pink for girls, blue for boys. As they get older, boys are encouraged to play in the dirt and with trucks while girls are encouraged to play with dolls or play-kitchens. As you know, society's views are strong even as we get older - a stay-at-home dad or a childfree-by-choice woman still receive "funny looks" or pressure from their families to fit into "more typical" gender roles.
Do you believe there is some truth to gender roles? Are women just scientifically more inclined to be nurturers, and men are genetically providers and protectors? Or do you just believe that these constructs are created by society? Do you believe that gender roles are helpful or harmful?
Do you believe there is some truth to gender roles? Are women just scientifically more inclined to be nurturers, and men are genetically providers and protectors? Or do you just believe that these constructs are created by society? Do you believe that gender roles are helpful or harmful?
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all of the above. I don't think there's anything wrong with gender roles... providing they aren't forced upon someone. But I also think it's silly to guilt a woman for wanting to be a homemaker0
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There are no "natural" gender roles. There are roles defined by societies. If societies didn't create those roles the only jobs that would be seen as something only one sex could do would be breastfeeding and child birth. The rest of it would be individual and family choice.0
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This came up on an episode of wife swap. One mother was a stay-at-home, football loving,Texan trophy wife who slaved over her husband and sons. The other was a 'free-loving' hippie who basically did very little for income along with her husband who both shared household roles.
The young son in the hippie house was obsessed with pink. His bedroom walls were painted hot pink, he work pink clothes daily, painted nails pink.. everything. It was just strange to me and I am probably the most tolerant person here as far as gender id goes. It almost seems like his parents were pushing the anti-gender roles thing so much that I think they were almost pushing the opposite onto their kids. The mom refused to shave her armpits because women who DO shave offend her. Apparently, as a hairy species, it is unnatural to remove hair.
I don't see an issue with a society having reasonable expectations. I don't think a man should be able to be a lazy piece of crap and not provide for his struggling family and use gender roles as an excuse... Obviously there are some people who make a working mom and stay at home dad fit into their lives and that's awesome. Sometimes, it's a cop-out.
I suppose I'm not for defined roles but reasonable expectations if they are necessary.0 -
Social constructs.
There may be certain skills that our brains hard wired to be better at based on gender. I think the science behind that is probably a little dodgy, though. If there were skills that are gendered for the general population then I can see where "roles" based on those skillsets might unfold. That wouldn't necessarily be the case on an individual basis, however.
In my opinion, if we're smart enough to ask the question, then we should acknowledge the strong possibility that we're just making ultimately arbitrary choices based on archaic traditions.0 -
They are *just* social constructs. However, that doesn't mean they're bad.......the idea of "manners" is also just a social construct.
Having a harmonious division of labor is a desirable thing when one is in a relationship. Often, the division of labor is somewhat associated with gender, but there is no need for this to be the case. My husband makes our dinner every night, and works from our home. I am the one with a job outside of the house, and I do less of the "house work". Our division of labor is based on where we are during the day, more than it is based on who has which kind of fun parts.0 -
Was just re-reading and caught the part about child-free by choice.........I have to say that I get WAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more flack on this topic, from seemingly everyone, than any other.
When I pierced my tongue, bellybutton, was using and drinking and carrousing as a crazy teenager, my Mom was able to be serene, trusted that I'd get my **** together. Never got judgy or mad at me.
Now, I'm married, college-educated, stable job, insanely happy with my husband, my step-kids, grandkids, life is just as I wish it to be, which does not include my ever becoming pregnant. This makes her get weepy and she guilt trips me like you would not believe. My decision to be child-free doesn't deny her grandchildren, as I said, I have 5 amazing stepkids, and my brother has 2 kids, and my sister has every intention of being a Mommy someday. But to hear her speak of my decision not to use my uterus........I'm like Hitler.
Strangers, co-workers, all kinds of people, upon discovering that I am a step-mom, and not a biological mother, will ALWAYS comment, "don't you want YOUR OWN?" Newsflash, you jerks: They ARE mine. Using your uterus is only the first step in becoming a mother. All of the other stuff you do once the kid is here turns you into a mother. I never gave birth, but I raised and cared for and worried about and loved those kids just as much as if I had birthed them.0 -
I have a daughter who will turn 4 in September. I try whenever possible to steer her away from classical gender choices and encourage her to see that anyone can be anything they want and that anyone can do anything they want. I know that eventually she will be faced with examples that this is not necessarily true, but I'll deal with those when they come up. I would rather her grow up thinking that anyone can do anything. Which is why I have a skirt so when she says, "Daddy, boys can wear skirts too, right?" I say, "Of course they can." And I put one on to show her that it's true. It might be silly, but I want her to grow up seeing the world differently than I did. I want the things that I had to unlearn and to consciously change to not even be a consideration for her. I hope that the world she grows up in is one that more fully recognizes equality at every level.
And woe to the person who tells my kid she can't be whatever she freakin' wants.0 -
Why don't people get that? If we adopt a child, they see them more as "ours" than if we'reStrangers, co-workers, all kinds of people, upon discovering that I am a step-mom, and not a biological mother, will ALWAYS comment, "don't you want YOUR OWN?" Newsflash, you jerks: They ARE mine. Using your uterus is only the first step in becoming a mother. All of the other stuff you do once the kid is here turns you into a mother. I never gave birth, but I raised and cared for and worried about and loved those kids just as much as if I had birthed them.
step parents. You ARE a mom. You DO have children and grandchildren.0 -
I think that there must be SOME biological basis to gender identity because if it was entirely social, then there would be no transgendered people.
That said, the real question ought to be is to what extent gender roles limit people's freedom of choice. After all, gender roles do vary across society. I'm much more bothered, for example, by a gender role that says that math and science are for boys, than I am by the random assignation of colors to genders.0 -
I think that there must be SOME biological basis to gender identity because if it was entirely social, then there would be no transgendered people.
That said, the real question ought to be is to what extent gender roles limit people's freedom of choice. After all, gender roles do vary across society. I'm much more bothered, for example, by a gender role that says that math and science are for boys, than I am by the random assignation of colors to genders.
I fall into this camp, and I like your point about transgendered individuals, though I wonder if there would be many in a society that did not assign such specific gender roles and identities.
Certainly there are aspects of gendered behaviour that are constructed by the society in which we live, but there are certain outcomes that I suspect have been been hard-wired into the body's biochemical processes on a gender-specific basis to ensure the survival of the species. As the half of the species able to give life to/nourish young, it is probably inherent that females are inclined to have greater nurturing instincts. As typically the larger, physically-stronger half of the species, the physically-aggressive protective instinct that seems to be more prevalent in males is probably a result of natural biochemistry as well. Nonetheless, the degree of these instincts experienced by individuals will vary, and inherent gendered tendencies should not be allowed to override individual choice in the population at large.
Other things - the random assignation of colours, beliefs about intellectual aptitude etc are purely the creation of the society we have developed. Some, as you say, are more concerning than others.0 -
I don't think our beliefs about gender would have existed, at least in their present western format, had they not been sturdily designed by the ancient Greeks who sturdily constructed not only buildings to last but beliefs also! That is one reason I never desire to go and see any of them in person. Amazing? Yes. Truly helpful? That's debatable.
Of course, with the economic situation of modern Greece, bet I could tour there really cheap right now!
However, I do believe that prior to the social values and beliefs we pressed on the sexes first from the Greeks and then those pesky Victorians and their Spheres of Separation, gender existed. Biologically there were males and females and each person's sex directed to some degree their role in their pack and their tribe. We are all, after all, social creatures and I'm sure that to survive as they did everyone had to contribute the best they could. I'm sure men and women back then both hunted and gathered! There was, after all, no remote control in the cave only constant starvation and cold.
-Debra0 -
On the one hand, it made sense at one point for some role division. It wasn't just a matter of birthing and breastfeeding children, it was a matter of being generally smaller and weaker because of that role. We carry more body fat and less muscle in order to carry and feed those babies. Do I like it? Hell no! Is it genetic reality? Sadly, yes. To this day, a lot of the role division across all societies stems from that which allowed for our survival and prosperity as a species.
Now, though, we have shed many past survival traits. We fly in planes in defiance of an instinctual fear of heights. We all interact with strangers daily, something that would surely have been detrimental to our survival at many times in the past. We don't hunt, we don't gather. Most of us exchange pieces of paper with each other for items wrapped in plastic. The rest push pieces of paper around office buildings or input information into computers. None of it is natural at all.
So just because it was beneficial at one point doesn't make it beneficial in the present, and for women, statistics show that it is often detrimental to take on the stereotypical wife and mother role. A divorce will usually leave a woman without job skills and experience in a very bad state financially and often her children, as well.0 -
Many years ago I was in a department store with my mum. We were looking for a gift for a friend's newborn baby and we had a slight disagreement on the colour of the garment we were looking for. I fancied this outfit which was predominately beige but with accents in pink and mother rebuked me that "you couldn't dress a baby boy in pink!" to which I retorted: "Well, I was dressed head to toe in blue and look how I turned out!" :laugh:
There is no doubt that gender rolls are often reinforced by parents, but I've friends with both boys and girls and while they are free to choose what they want to play with, there is no doubt that the boy loves his football and the girl her dressing-up outfits and dolls.
From a personal perspective, I used to love playing with Lego and toy cars as well as action figures. I didn't really enjoy sports, but then my family were never really big into sports anyhow. My friends were 70/30 girls to boys. I was sensitive and caring, but I loved playing (space) soldiers and Cowboys & Indians and spent most of my time playing outdoors. While I'm not your archetypal gay man, I guess I do have some typically gay traits which I certainly didn't get from nurture, so I can only assume they're natural. :ohwell: :happy:0 -
I'm sure men and women back then both hunted and gathered! There was, after all, no remote control in the cave only constant starvation and cold.
You don't think early human civilizations had gender roles as we do? We know better. In Native American cultures there is a distinct divide between female and male jobs. Males hunted. Females did not. Each gender definitely had their jobs/skill sets, based on their sex.0 -
statistics show that it is often detrimental to take on the stereotypical wife and mother role. A divorce will usually leave a woman without job skills and experience in a very bad state financially and often her children, as well.
Not necessarily. She leaves the man but he still has to pay to provide for her and the children. Child support, alimony, anyone?0 -
I'm sure men and women back then both hunted and gathered! There was, after all, no remote control in the cave only constant starvation and cold.
You don't think early human civilizations had gender roles as we do? We know better. In Native American cultures there is a distinct divide between female and male jobs. Males hunted. Females did not. Each gender definitely had their jobs/skill sets, based on their sex.
For me the question then is: were all civilizations like that? I wonder if some where more matriarchal than others and may have included women in either or both of the hunting and gathering processes. Early civilizations may have had gender roles, but I think the point is that they may not have had the same gender roles. And if they weren't the same between societies, we could make some generalizations like saying that humans at a specific stage in our development employed both genders for the same roles with difference varying by culture.0 -
statistics show that it is often detrimental to take on the stereotypical wife and mother role. A divorce will usually leave a woman without job skills and experience in a very bad state financially and often her children, as well.
Not necessarily. She leaves the man but he still has to pay to provide for her and the children. Child support, alimony, anyone?
Even with payment of child support (alimony is rarer and rarer these days), statistics show that the man's standard of living will actually improve while the woman's will decrease after a divorce.0 -
statistics show that it is often detrimental to take on the stereotypical wife and mother role. A divorce will usually leave a woman without job skills and experience in a very bad state financially and often her children, as well.
Not necessarily. She leaves the man but he still has to pay to provide for her and the children. Child support, alimony, anyone?
Even with payment of child support (alimony is rarer and rarer these days), statistics show that the man's standard of living will actually improve while the woman's will decrease after a divorce.
This ^ . Child support...that's IF the man in question doesn't have very good lawyers/accountants to minimise/hide his assets and reduce or in some cases negate entirely his financial liability, or doesn't just run out on/evade court-mandated payments. How much Child Support is currently owed in arrears in the US again? In 2007, I believe it was somewhere around the $35 billion mark...0 -
At least in the United States, gender roles and separation are defined from birth - pink for girls, blue for boys. As they get older, boys are encouraged to play in the dirt and with trucks while girls are encouraged to play with dolls or play-kitchens. As you know, society's views are strong even as we get older - a stay-at-home dad or a childfree-by-choice woman still receive "funny looks" or pressure from their families to fit into "more typical" gender roles.
Do you believe there is some truth to gender roles? Are women just scientifically more inclined to be nurturers, and men are genetically providers and protectors? Or do you just believe that these constructs are created by society? Do you believe that gender roles are helpful or harmful?
I did an entire research project on this topic about 2 years ago! It's saved on a flash drive somewhere...if I can find it, I'll share it, if you'd like.
I got a 100% on it, I'm pretty proud, haha!
I'll come out and say it, and it's purely opinion: I hate most gender roles. I'm not a fan of the "Disney Princess" mindset in any way. I don't like it when people say "he's a boy, he's SUPPOSED to be playing with [insert stereotypical "boy" toy, here]." I don't like "don't let her wear blue, she's a girl!" That last one surprises most people, since my favorite color is pink and I wear it almost daily. :laugh: However, I don't like it because I'm SUPPOSED to because I have a vagina.
I'm very, very thankful that I grew up in a household with a mom who isn't the typical girlie-girl who feels that little girls should only play with kitchen sets and Barbie dolls. Yeah, I had Barbie dolls and other dolls and I did like my play kitchen set. I also loved my Lego's, Hot Wheels, Ninja Turtle action figures, and I wallowed in the dirt like a pig. Sometimes I wore pretty dresses with tights and buckle shoes, and sometimes I wore denim cut-offs and Ninja Turtle t-shirts.
However much I don't like it, gender roles do exist in our society. If someone wants to live their life into a gender role, then that's fine. I won't even lie--if I did have children, and did have enough money to do so, I'd want to stay at home with them, for reasons other than "I'm a woman and therefore I'm a nurturing caregiver." Like I said earlier, I do love the color pink, I dress feminine (usually), I wear make-up, and I do other "stereotypical" feminine things. I don't begrudge anyone who fits into a gender role, since I do it myself, at times. However, the idea that they're FORCED is what I have issue with.
I do remember this one woman I used in my research--she let her son dress as Daphne from the Scooby cartoons for Halloween, and received a lot of negative attention, even hate mail, and was accused of abusing her son (even though it was his idea, and he asked to dress that way, even after his mother told him that some kids might make fun of his choice). Why is it NOT okay for a little boy to dress as a female character, but society doesn't really give a crap if a little girl wants to dress as Batman or Superman or Sherlock Holmes or any other male character? That's what I have a huge problem with.
And ohh yes, don't even get me started on the "Why do you not want children?!" hatefulness. I'm only 25 years old, and I'm a full-time student, and I even get it. I thought I wouldn't hear that nonsense until I was at least married and/or older, but I do get it. I went to a family reunion last month, and aunts that I don't even talk to, much less ever see, reprimanded me and tried to make me feel like crap because I was honest and said that I don't want kids. One of my cousins just had a baby, so everyone was ooh-ing and ahh-ing over her. Which is fine. She's adorable and that is my cousin's choice to be a mom. Me and another female cousin, however, do not want kids. Doesn't mean we HATE kids. We just do not want them. I even told them that if, IF, I ever do decide to be a parent, I will adopt a child rather than have my own. "Well that's not the same...who wants someone else's kid?" Ugh. And yes, my mom guilt-trips me. "Well then I won't have any grandchildren!" Sorry, but I don't feel I was put on this earth to have children for others. She seems offended when I tell her that she should volunteer with children or perhaps become a foster parent, if she really wants to be with children that badly. I have no desire to ever have my own children, for my own reasons, and it seems that isn't good enough for a lot of people. The condescending "oh, you just don't want them NOW!" or "You don't have to lie, we know you do" is enough to make me want to punch some faces (not my mom's, but others, lol). Point is, when you tell some people that you don't want children, they react as if you've just murdered someone.
I do believe that most gender roles are constructs of society. People choose to dress their baby boys in blue, and pink for baby girls. Their toys are dependent solely on what others buy or make for them, they don't buy them or make them themselves. Only as they get older, do they make those sort of choices. and unfortunately, sometimes their choices as labeled as "wrong" because it doesn't fit a stereotypical gender mold.
***I apologize for the lengthy novel, there. This is just a topic I am VERY passionate about.*0 -
Kimmy, I for one love your passion about this subject. I just disagree with one thing you wrote, which was "I do believe that most gender roles are constructs of society." I think you were trying to be too kind because, based on your story there, I would have to say that you believe wholeheartedly like I do that ALL (not most) gender roles are social constructs.
As to the whole matronly peer pressure towards younger women to start pumping out the babies, it's a perfect example of social constructs which seem to scream out right at the edge of our subconscious, "Be like me, follow the rules, hamstring your life, put aside your talents and dreams, swim in mediocrity with me, if you don't do that you are a traitor and worse dangerous!" Its a similar psychology that gets played out towards the first girl in a family to attend college - who would you expect would be the biggest support, mom, is in fact usually the worst detractor and sabatuer.
My sociology prof mentioned that there are a couple of native societies that don't have gender roles but for the life of me I can't remember who they are. Maybe an anthropology specialist or sociologist is in the house who could help out here? Our societal rules and organizational structures are so deep and hidden that we often don't see them for what they are - illusions!
-Debra0 -
Kimmy, I for one love your passion about this subject. I just disagree with one thing you wrote, which was "I do believe that most gender roles are constructs of society." I think you were trying to be too kind because, based on your story there, I would have to say that you believe wholeheartedly like I do that ALL (not most) gender roles are social constructs.
As to the whole matronly peer pressure towards younger women to start pumping out the babies, it's a perfect example of social constructs which seem to scream out right at the edge of our subconscious, "Be like me, follow the rules, hamstring your life, put aside your talents and dreams, swim in mediocrity with me, if you don't do that you are a traitor and worse dangerous!" Its a similar psychology that gets played out towards the first girl in a family to attend college - who would you expect would be the biggest support, mom, is in fact usually the worst detractor and sabatuer.
My sociology prof mentioned that there are a couple of native societies that don't have gender roles but for the life of me I can't remember who they are. Maybe an anthropology specialist or sociologist is in the house who could help out here? Our societal rules and organizational structures are so deep and hidden that we often don't see them for what they are - illusions!
-Debra
Thanks. And you are right--I really cannot think of any gender roles that aren't impressed solely from society.
That's funny that you mention the college thing--I'm the only female child, but I have 2 brothers. Older brother, as happy as they were when he did go to college very briefly, was never pressured into going to school. Me? I was pressured like hell to attend college. My family is also more "giving" and offers to help me a lot, even though I don't ask for help. That definitely was not their attitude towards me when I was working 2 jobs and not in school.
I have a classmate who is a stay-at-home dad to his 2 sons. Older son has purple hair and younger son has long hair, and since he is so young, people often apparently mistake him for a little girl, he says. These kids wear whatever colors they choose, have their hair how they choose, and from what I can tell, their toys aren't chosen as "manly vs. girly." Which I think is amazing.
Oh! When I was doing my project, I came across this story. Very fitting of this discussion, and I enjoyed the read, personally.
http://www.gendercentre.org.au/22article4.htm0
