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Learning how to stay out of the FRIENDZONE...
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I think I can hang with anyone here in an intellectual discussion on just about anything: opera, literature, philosophy, history, whatever. This isn't a brag, I just want to make it clear that I like to analyze, I understand where you're coming from philosophically, I'm well educated, well traveled, etc. I stress this because of what I'm about to say next:
You ladies just need to get laid.
Just stop over-thinking this and get bizzay. The sooner the better. Make a few mistakes, OK? That's friggin' life. Gather ye rosebuds, ladies! Less posting, more sexing.
Don't tell me you can't get laid. Every woman can get laid. And it doesn't have to be with some loser. But stop looking for Mr Perfect who respects my take on modern women and honor and and and. Stop over thinking this! Have a couple of drinks, find a decent guy who smells nice, grab his *kitten*, and find a taxi. Use a condom, you'll be fine. Maybe you'll hate yourself in the morning, but you'll get over it. And nice smelling man #2 will be better, with less guilt. And on it goes. Adventure. Pleasure. Guilt. Lust. Love. It's called living a life.
"The glorious lamp of heaven, the sun,
The higher he's a-getting,
The sooner will his race be run,
And nearer he's to setting.
That age is best which is the first,
When youth and blood are warmer;
But being spent, the worse, and worst
Times still succeed the former."
I liked your plane analogy. I fly almost every week (nudge nudge wink wink). For me, flying is not a big deal. But the first time you fly, it is rather a big deal. So what to do? Read books on the art of flying? On the history of British Air? Discuss the psychology of flying from a Freudian perspective, and compare to Jung's take on man and modern flight? Post daily on a Travel website about how to find the perfect flight for first time flyers?
OR.....
Buy a friggin' ticket and fly somewhere! Anywhere! Just get on the plane, OK? You don't have to go to the south of France on trip one. Hell, fly to Cleveland. Fly to Sheffield. Whatever. Have a drink beforehand if it will calm your nerves. But get on that plane.
--P0 -
Where are all these women that will sleep with a guy at the drop of a hat?0
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I know, right? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:Where are all these women that will sleep with a guy at the drop of a hat?
While they exist, they're by no means the norm. If you feel you girls are "different/special" because you want to have a meaningful relationship (and sex, or do you want a sexless purely platonic relationship?), you're well mistaken!
Don't believe me? Ask any guy here if they would rather have "just sex" or "a satisfying relationship and sex"... Guess what the answer will be. The only difference between you and me is I'm OK to have just sex for sex too. But I still like the other one better.
(apart from that, 90% of women want to wait for sex, and when they don't wait, they are just usually "not like that"... yeah right!)
No. If you're getting friend zoned, you're not sexual. End of story. You're not letting the guy know that he could be oooh so much more than just a friend. You need to leave the guy hanging, hoping for more.Another part of the problem (that I"ve been told by guy friends) is, of course, the insistence on developing a relationship before getting too physically intimate. This is a great way to get friendzoned while the guys search for someone spicier.
Someone said this earlier (you need to introduce yourself as a potential partner), and I agree. I diagnose a failure to be sexual, to hold sexual interest, to be seen as a potential romantic relationship.
And no, asking the man about his favourite video game or favourite dish doesn't count as sexual.
You can discover more about someone while still keeping some sexual tension alive.0 -
Where are all these women that will sleep with a guy at the drop of a hat?
Nightclubs, bars, pubs, festivals ie. places with lots of alcohol, are where I most often see this sort of behaviour. And I did say in my more coherent second post that appearing to be immediately willing is as much a prerequisite for attracting attention as actually being so - hence the complaints frequently heard about women "playing games" and "leading men on"...Another part of the problem (that I"ve been told by guy friends) is, of course, the insistence on developing a relationship before getting too physically intimate. This is a great way to get friendzoned while the guys search for someone spicier.
No. If you're getting friend zoned, you're not sexual. End of story. You're not letting the guy know that he could be oooh so much more than just a friend. You need to leave the guy hanging, hoping for more.
Someone said this earlier (you need to introduce yourself as a potential partner), and I agree. I diagnose a failure to be sexual, to hold sexual interest, to be seen as a potential romantic relationship.
OK, but then you and others have previously defined 'being sexual' as flirting, touching, smiling, maintaining eye contact, striking up conversations/making the first move, seeming open and approachable. If none of that works, what then? My life (clearly :laugh: ) isn't an R-rated movie, and a crotch-grab or similar would get me thrown out of most of the places I go, even if I could bring myself to do it!
In other places on this board, people have also said that one shouldn't view/approach every member of the opposite sex as a potential partner, because it makes one appear desperate. Which is it?! IamConfused.com.0 -
This is why I refuse to have sex with virgins. Not only are they usually terrible (this is more true for men than women I imagine), but they idealize sex too much. I'm not saying it can't be a beautiful thing that you share with someone you love - but love is quite a lot to work for. I am no longer with the person I first had sex with, he turned out to be kind of a horrible human being that was taking advantage of a teenager. Do I regret it? Not in the least. Are there instances that I do regret? Eh... not really. There are times that I am less than proud of and might be a bit embarrassing but it's kind of silly to regret.
The idea behind "be sexual" doesn't mean go to a bar wearing a short skirt with no undies and riding up on some guy. But it does mean to portray an image of "I am a sexual creature that is open to the idea of sex". It means not standing in the corner crossing your arms and trying to blend into the wall. It means not looking at the floor and being terrified when someone talks to you. If you look like someone that is going to collapse the moment you think about a penis no guy is going to get after that (except someone seriously damaged and scary). If you look like you are having a fun good time and there's a guy worth winking at and touching his arm (Touching his arm, for crying out loud) then you'll get someone that wants to kiss you and take you out.
Christine, Castadiva, you are treating this like a black and white situation. Like there are women who are "respectable" in their long sleeved shirts and then women who are sluts that sleep with everyone. Christine, it's cool that you wore a tank top once and were uncomfortable the whole time. DUH. It's going to take some getting used to. If you've never done it before and it was weird... do it again. Wear it out to the mailbox. Wear it to the grocery store. Wear it to whatever you do and eventually it'll be normal. Wear it to a bar again and whattaya know? It's simply another cute shirt option. You were uncomfortable with a tank top. Tank tops are hardly the sexiest, most revealing thing someone can wear.
I'm not saying your first time can't be something meaningful, but geez, aren't we talking about kisses here? Who has a truly romantic story about their first kiss. This is life, not a story book romantic comedy nonsense. Get your head out of the clouds and start living your life before it passes you by.0 -
I've never had the Friendzone problem. In fact, I've had quite the opposite problem. I have never been able to be just friends with a man. Not since I was a teenager anyway. At times, I thought I was "just friends" with a guy and later found out he had an attraction or other interests in me. Now, there have been a few times, that because of our circumstances, we've decided that being "friends" was better for us than pursuing something further. But there is not one single man that I know personally (in real life) that has not expressed interest in me.
I'm not saying that to boast. Trust me, I don't know that many single men. LOL
I'm only chiming in to help think about it...
I am not the most modest dresser, but I'm also not someone who shows off everything I have either. Of course, when you've got a big chest, you sometimes can't help but show some cleavage. But I am very feminine. And I'm a natural flirt. I can't help it. I see a man and he looks my way, and something just happens. I smile. My eyes sparkle. I don't know. It's not something I've ever practiced. It just happens. I look men in the eye. I definitely don't act like "one of the guys" although I'm quite comfortable around men and can laugh and joke and tease. Also, if I'm interested, I playfully touch him somehow. On the arm... the side... whatever... or hit him with a balloon (was just thinking about a festival I attended not too long ago and ran into a male friend who was heavily flirting).
And you can make eating anything look sexy... lol.. grapes, icecream, french fries...0 -
Where are all these women that will sleep with a guy at the drop of a hat?
Nightclubs, bars, pubs, festivals ie. places with lots of alcohol, are where I most often see this sort of behaviour. And I did say in my more coherent second post that appearing to be immediately willing is as much a prerequisite for attracting attention as actually being so - hence the complaints frequently heard about women "playing games" and "leading men on"...Another part of the problem (that I"ve been told by guy friends) is, of course, the insistence on developing a relationship before getting too physically intimate. This is a great way to get friendzoned while the guys search for someone spicier.
No. If you're getting friend zoned, you're not sexual. End of story. You're not letting the guy know that he could be oooh so much more than just a friend. You need to leave the guy hanging, hoping for more.
Someone said this earlier (you need to introduce yourself as a potential partner), and I agree. I diagnose a failure to be sexual, to hold sexual interest, to be seen as a potential romantic relationship.
OK, but then you and others have previously defined 'being sexual' as flirting, touching, smiling, maintaining eye contact, striking up conversations/making the first move, seeming open and approachable. If none of that works, what then? My life (clearly :laugh: ) isn't an R-rated movie, and a crotch-grab or similar would get me thrown out of most of the places I go, even if I could bring myself to do it!
In other places on this board, people have also said that one shouldn't view/approach every member of the opposite sex as a potential partner, because it makes one appear desperate. Which is it?! IamConfused.com.
I don't view every man I meet as a potential partner. But I am a natural flirt... I don't flirt with every man I meet... but if the opportunity strikes, I take it, without even thinking about it... I think part of it is just being comfortable in your own skin, being comfortable with being a female...0 -
The idea behind "be sexual" doesn't mean go to a bar wearing a short skirt with no undies and riding up on some guy. But it does mean to portray an image of "I am a sexual creature that is open to the idea of sex". It means not standing in the corner crossing your arms and trying to blend into the wall. It means not looking at the floor and being terrified when someone talks to you. If you look like someone that is going to collapse the moment you think about a penis no guy is going to get after that (except someone seriously damaged and scary). If you look like you are having a fun good time and there's a guy worth winking at and touching his arm (Touching his arm, for crying out loud) then you'll get someone that wants to kiss you and take you out.
Christine, Castadiva, you are treating this like a black and white situation. Like there are women who are "respectable" in their long sleeved shirts and then women who are sluts that sleep with everyone.
I've been trying really hard not to do that. Black & White isn't my mindset, generally speaking - 50 shades of grey would be too few
As I type this I'm wearing a fairly low scoop-necked bias-cut ie. fairly figure-hugging, cap-sleeved linen dress (just above my knees) and peep-toe high wedges that make my legs look fantastic, which is fairly standard for me at the office. Elegant and feminine, but not unsexy. I've said it before, and I will say it again: I'm not actually prudish, I'm certainly not uninterested in sex, and I have no problem doing the things that most here describe as 'being sexual' when there's someone I'm interested in. The point I am trying to make is that it's not actually as simple for everyone as it seems to be for most. Whether that's because of personal limits to what is considered acceptable behaviour, or because every active attempt is rebuffed and the opportunity so rarely arises that it is not recognised as an opportunity when it does.Christine, it's cool that you wore a tank top once and were uncomfortable the whole time. DUH. It's going to take some getting used to. If you've never done it before and it was weird... do it again. Wear it out to the mailbox. Wear it to the grocery store. Wear it to whatever you do and eventually it'll be normal. Wear it to a bar again and whattaya know? It's simply another cute shirt option. You were uncomfortable with a tank top. Tank tops are hardly the sexiest, most revealing thing someone can wear.
I'm all for this - it does take time to adjust to something uncomfortable, whether that's changes in diet/exercise habits or behaviours/clothing choices.I'm not saying your first time can't be something meaningful, but geez, aren't we talking about kisses here? Who has a truly romantic story about their first kiss.
Yeah... I'm probably talking more about sex than kissing, if I'm honest. I'm so far past the usual age for first kisses and 'learner' relationships that I sort of assume these days that first kissing and first sex are likely to follow on in fairly short order ie. a few weeks to a couple of months between the two at most, for me. Maybe that's why I'm fairly adamant that I'm not really interested in kissing someone I can't see myself becoming intimate, and not just physically, with. Casual 'Making out' isn't typically something people in my social circle of my age group do unless they're looking at relationship potential, whether that's short or long-term. Lots of people I know are getting married at the moment (early-mid 30's, for the most part), so fewer and fewer are still at the 'playing' stage in any case... Running before I can walk, as per usual!
On that note, I hope everyone has a wonderful weekend, and I shall see you all, virtually, on Monday morning GMT.0 -
Another part of the problem (that I"ve been told by guy friends) is, of course, the insistence on developing a relationshp before getting too physically intimate. This is a great way to get friendzoned while the guys search for someone spicier
This is exactly what I'm talking about. And where I think we, as a society, have a problem. You managed to say it in so many fewer words than I did, Janie! :laugh: Thanks for the hugs :flowerforyou:
There was a thread a few weeks ago where I think it was Carl (sorry if I'm wrong about who) said that many women focus on building an emotional connection while ignoring the fact that men have a need to build intimacy through being physical. And the question was, why is one need more important than the other? The answer is that they are not! I'm not saying run out and have sex with just anyone, but touching and kissing, etc. is what makes a significant other DIFFERENT from a friend. So yes, it needs to be built at an EQUAL PACE as the emotional aspects or you will be friendzoned, that is a reality. I understand that what I'm saying may seem frightening to anyone who has not encountered some of these physical actions yet, but please don't assume guys are rushing you when they seek the smaller gestures of intimacy, such as a kiss, they are just being true to their biological needs.
I hope that makes sense... :drinker:0 -
Another part of the problem (that I"ve been told by guy friends) is, of course, the insistence on developing a relationshp before getting too physically intimate. This is a great way to get friendzoned while the guys search for someone spicierThis is exactly what I'm talking about. And where I think we, as a society, have a problem. You managed to say it in so many fewer words than I did, Janie! :laugh: Thanks for the hugs :flowerforyou:
There was a thread a few weeks ago where I think it was Carl (sorry if I'm wrong about who) said that many women focus on building an emotional connection while ignoring the fact that men have a need to build intimacy through being physical. And the question was, why is one need more important than the other? The answer is that they are not! I'm not saying run out and have sex with just anyone, but touching and kissing, etc. is what makes a significant other DIFFERENT from a friend. So yes, it needs to be built at an EQUAL PACE as the emotional aspects or you will be friendzoned, that is a reality. I understand that what I'm saying may seem frightening to anyone who has not encountered some of these physical actions yet, but please don't assume guys are rushing you when they seek the smaller gestures of intimacy, such as a kiss, they are just being true to their biological needs.
I hope that makes sense... :drinker:
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I just want to thank all of the participants in this thread for providing some truly valuable info, on a topic that's not often discussed with candor.
It's pretty clear that some of the conversations about "just a kiss" are, indeed, about "just a kiss". But some of them are in code for... more than "just a kiss"... and some of them are not even in code, which I, for one, appreciate.
A few of these posts are so salient, so clear and rational that - if I met you in real life and heard this stuff spoken out loud, I'd certainly smile, make good eye contact and casually touch your elbow gently as I asked you if you preferred red or white wine.
Thank-you!0 -
[/quote]Another part of the problem (that I"ve been told by guy friends) is, of course, the insistence on developing a relationshp before getting too physically intimate. This is a great way to get friendzoned while the guys search for someone spicierThis is exactly what I'm talking about. And where I think we, as a society, have a problem. You managed to say it in so many fewer words than I did, Janie! :laugh: Thanks for the hugs :flowerforyou:
There was a thread a few weeks ago where I think it was Carl (sorry if I'm wrong about who) said that many women focus on building an emotional connection while ignoring the fact that men have a need to build intimacy through being physical. And the question was, why is one need more important than the other? The answer is that they are not! I'm not saying run out and have sex with just anyone, but touching and kissing, etc. is what makes a significant other DIFFERENT from a friend. So yes, it needs to be built at an EQUAL PACE as the emotional aspects or you will be friendzoned, that is a reality. I understand that what I'm saying may seem frightening to anyone who has not encountered some of these physical actions yet, but please don't assume guys are rushing you when they seek the smaller gestures of intimacy, such as a kiss, they are just being true to their biological needs.
I hope that makes sense... :drinker:
Absolutely - and to clarify, I don't think that the physical side of a relationship is less important than the emotional/intellectual. I feel, however, that as a society in general, we have prioritised the physical connection, in my opinion unhelpfully, over the other facets.
I'm all for regarding all aspects of intimacy in an equal light, understanding that we all have differing speeds/levels of comfort with emotional, intellectual and physical closeness, but it seems to me that the priorities we have chosen actually impede the development of complete relationships when the pressure seems to be to achieve very high levels of physical intimacy very quickly, without much regard for the emotional and intellectual side of things. Hugs, cuddling, kisses, touches - these are all intimate, and part of building a relationship, in my view. What I meant (and I suspect Janie did too?) is that there is a great deal of cultural pressure to move beyond that 'building' stage much faster in the physical sense, and often before the more complex emotional/intellectual side has caught up. I'm not sure that's really helping anyone.0 -
I have loved coming back from vacation to see where this thread has gone. I really do believe you have to kiss a few frogs so to speak. I'd rather make mistakes with the wrong guys and figure it out with the right one. It may even mean some good ones are lost in the learning, but that's OK. I really do think my particular issue with the friend zone is related to being one of the boys. So that's MY focus on changing that...
This week, while on vacation, I decided I needed to try being more sexual, but that it didn't need to GO anywhere. So I pulled out a dress I'd bought and never worn... completely uncomfortable for me because everything was almost hanging out... ALMOST and honestly not in a bad way. I opened my friend's room door and all I got were "Woo Hoo"s and "It's about damn time, girl!" because they know I don't dress that way... I walked straight to dinner watching heads turn and learning that it doesn't matter if the heads turned for good or bad reasons. Even the guy serving my food winked and gave me a full once over, haha. For once I stopped worrying about what everyone thought... yet I didn't DO anything "wrong".
All I can say, is if you're not getting the desired result, change your tactic. Everything you try won't always work but I'm learning about me and having some fun doing it!!0 -
P.S. Thanks for the kudos, Flam! It's been an uphill battle getting out there and taking each step, good and bad, as a learning but being OK with the result. It's the only way to move forward, I think :happy:0
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.So I pulled out a dress I'd bought and never worn... completely uncomfortable for me because everything was almost hanging out... ALMOST and honestly not in a bad way. I opened my friend's room door and all I got were "Woo Hoo"s and "It's about damn time, girl!" because they know I don't dress that way... I walked straight to dinner watching heads turn and learning that it doesn't matter if the heads turned for good or bad reasons. Even the guy serving my food winked and gave me a full once over, haha. For once I stopped worrying about what everyone thought... yet I didn't DO anything "wrong".
Congrats!! I am so happy you had this good experience. Keep it up, and you will discover what the rest of us have been saying- that you're beautiful and wonderful. :-)0 -
.So I pulled out a dress I'd bought and never worn... completely uncomfortable for me because everything was almost hanging out... ALMOST and honestly not in a bad way. I opened my friend's room door and all I got were "Woo Hoo"s and "It's about damn time, girl!" because they know I don't dress that way... I walked straight to dinner watching heads turn and learning that it doesn't matter if the heads turned for good or bad reasons. Even the guy serving my food winked and gave me a full once over, haha. For once I stopped worrying about what everyone thought... yet I didn't DO anything "wrong".
Congrats!! I am so happy you had this good experience. Keep it up, and you will discover what the rest of us have been saying- that you're beautiful and wonderful. :-)
Yay, Angie!! Turning heads is great fun. I always assume the best when I turn heads... you should too. You are awesome, girl!!!!0
This discussion has been closed.