A Machiavellian Guide to Dating Quality Women
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Yes, it was written in a tongue-in-cheek style, so I would agree with this. However, I was serious about my main point, which is that many (most? all?) women will settle, so long as the man convinces her (and hopefully he is sincere!) that he cares for her deeply.
That is what women crave most: to be loved. By whom is important, but it is secondary.
--P
P - Loved it! Funny and true. Your own personal "tour de force", if you will. Honestly.. whether or not it paints us in the best light.. I think it is quite true for many women. It certainly is for me.. but then again I'm pretty up front about my apparently all consuming need to be sincerely loved/wanted/desired.. :blushing:0 -
But I’m having a great time in my new relationship, and I wouldn’t have BEEN able to relax and just enjoy him without the couple months of being reserved to make sure he wasn’t just pulling the wool over my eyes. Granted, a couple months might be a bit too long, lol, but most ladies don’t even give a guy a couple WEEKS to show his true colors. We invite him home the first date and then expect declarations of everlasting love by the 2nd week.
This is an EXCELLENT point.0 -
While I agree with your general premise (that women find men who care about them more attractive), I’m having a problem with your use of the word “settling.” So, it’s considered “settling” to stay with a nice, reasonably decent looking guy who cares about you? Because that sounds pretty much ideal to me. In other words, is it settling or readjusting your expectations? (I think there is a difference between the two. To me, settling implies that it is a quality you still want, but are willing to forgo in lieu of other qualities, while readjusting your expectations implies that you realize the quality is not as important as you thought it was.)
I think the men who succeed at the approach you posted were likely already hitting all the major non-negotiables on the checklist to begin with, but maybe not the more minor ones. I don’t think that simply caring for her trumps everything. That is much too broad a statement. You can be the nice, reasonably decent looking guy who shows her you care and still get nowhere. There are loads of guys out there who have been friend-zoned who can attest to that. You have to have enough on the checklist to even get to the first date so you can start playing this game. (I tend to believe that most people aren’t wasting time on first dates with people who aren’t meeting at least some of their non-negotiable checklist items.) Getting the first date is half the battle. Beyond that, there are also loads of guys who won’t get to the second or third date based upon how they acted on the first date. However, even then I think it is difficult to tie the woman’s “settling” attraction to you to one single thing, such as your feelings about her. It’s entirely possible that she simply got to know you over the course of one, two, or three dates and decided she was interested – the same way that you did.
I don’t believe the nice guys finish last mantra either when it comes to dating. I think some of these self-described nice guys are likely missing a major non-negotiable or are not as wonderful and nice as they think they are.0 -
To me, settling implies that it is a quality you still want, but are willing to forgo in lieu of other qualities, while readjusting your expectations implies that you realize the quality is not as important as you thought it was.
At first blush, I didn't see a difference. Then I thought about the last two guys I dated... and I suppose I see what you mean.
My boyfriend is good looking, sure. But my friends still tease me about the bodybuilder who is hands down the hottest guy I ever dated. When I was going out with him, half of his value was in the fact that so many women whose shallow opinion I unfortunately cared about drooled over him. It was like a status ego boost. I think this is why I soooo identified with that rich shallow girl I posted about not long ago. Being on his arm made me feel better about myself (whoo! a hottie like that wanted me and is talking about long term). But I eventually found out he was still married (which was the reason he wanted me to stop dating other guys but wouldn't "go exclusive.").
When I first met BB, I was digging myself out of shallow "the man makes me look good" mode and starting to appreciate myself for who I was. I probably would have over-looked him but his personality impressed me and kept me coming back for more. And now I have this tall, broad, handsome boyfriend whose quick mind goes tit-for-tat with mine and who isn't afraid to call me out like I sometimes call others out. A perfect body is nice, but so is a normal body with a great personality!
hmmm.... getting sidetracked thinking about his body... lol... it's not Friday yet...I don’t believe the nice guys finish last mantra either when it comes to dating. I think some of these self-described nice guys are likely missing a major non-negotiable or are not as wonderful and nice as they think they are.
This is so true! Some of my worst dates have been "the nice guys!" I think they expect because they're so "nice" I should just pucker up or spread my legs to appreciate their niceness. Sorry buddy.... there are plenty of other women who will play that game, and you don't even have to be nice to them. Most ladies are looking to experience intimacy with someone who cares about her. And there's nothing wrong with that.0 -
None of this rang true for me, and I was all ready to be like "NOPE, haha you're wrong!" until I saw that there are women who do agree... so maybe this isn't all that off base. It's not true for me personally, I've done the opposite.
In no way did I have you in mind when I wrote this. You are an enigma, wrapped in a mystery. I'm not even sure the laws of the universe apply to you, much less the laws of dating...
--P0 -
No I dont think so. With Mr NG and myself it was a simple matter of I dont know if this guy can handle me. I didnt "settle" He just proved that he could handle all my crazy zany parts.
"Settle" was a poor word choice on my part. I should have said that women will "recalibrate their needs criteria" when faced with a man who demonstrates his affection for them early.
But from the man's perspective, the key takeaway is that he can "punch above his weight class" if he is aggressive in asking a woman out, and willing to show genuine interest early.
--P0 -
None of this rang true for me, and I was all ready to be like "NOPE, haha you're wrong!" until I saw that there are women who do agree... so maybe this isn't all that off base. It's not true for me personally, I've done the opposite.
In no way did I have you in mind when I wrote this. You are an enigma, wrapped in a mystery. I'm not even sure the laws of the universe apply to you, much less the laws of dating...
--P
I'm not sure if you mean this as a compliment or not but based on your past responses to my posts I'm going to choose to take it as a good thing, hahaha!0 -
While I agree with your general premise (that women find men who care about them more attractive), I’m having a problem with your use of the word “settling.” So, it’s considered “settling” to stay with a nice, reasonably decent looking guy who cares about you?
Aha, just saw this. So I agree with you. I used "settle" to be more provocative, but it was a poor word choice, based on how women perceive the situation.
--P0 -
None of this rang true for me, and I was all ready to be like "NOPE, haha you're wrong!" until I saw that there are women who do agree... so maybe this isn't all that off base. It's not true for me personally, I've done the opposite.
In no way did I have you in mind when I wrote this. You are an enigma, wrapped in a mystery. I'm not even sure the laws of the universe apply to you, much less the laws of dating...
--P
I'm not sure if you mean this as a compliment or not but based on your past responses to my posts I'm going to choose to take it as a good thing, hahaha!
Yes, how I view the world, that was a massive compliment.
You're welcome. ;-)
--P0 -
But I’m having a great time in my new relationship, and I wouldn’t have BEEN able to relax and just enjoy him without the couple months of being reserved to make sure he wasn’t just pulling the wool over my eyes. Granted, a couple months might be a bit too long, lol, but most ladies don’t even give a guy a couple WEEKS to show his true colors. We invite him home the first date and then expect declarations of everlasting love by the 2nd week.
This is an EXCELLENT point.
Thanks!!0 -
Not my fault. I didn't make the world like that. That's why I'm saying you either have to comply or die.
Do you not see how wrong that is?I think "strong women" are fully responsible for their failures, as much as "weak men" are.
Men are mostly expected to approach (and thus be strong), they either comply or die. Women are mostly expected to be approached (and thus approachable), they either comply or die.
If a "strong" man cannot find the guts to approach a "strong" woman, or rather, the courage to acknowledge his own desire for an equal, rather than a subordinate, then he is not truly strong.
I agree that some men are not truly strong, that precisely my point. "Strong" men are only an expectation from women and society, as "weak" women are. For every strong woman who complain she is too strong for those weak men, there is a weak man who complains about these strong women.
This problem is completely symmetrical.
Women are empowering themselves, men are losing their traditional power (in the grand scheme of things), roles are not as clearly defined as they used to be (for the benefit of everyone IMHO) but men (weak or not) now don't have a guaranteed partner or place in society either.
On the contrary to you, though (and more in line with what Kitsune thinks) I think "strong" women can definitely find a place and partner in our modern society, and although there is still sexism in places, it's mostly a case of just moving somewhere else where people are more accommodating.
Of course strong stubborn women who make a point of never backing off are as much a nuisance (and digging their own grave) as strong stubborn men.
I'll let my male friends know. That's a start.The wider male mind must adjust to reality as it is, rather than as it would wish it to be, or we, as a species, are in a whole world of trouble.0 -
But I’m having a great time in my new relationship, and I wouldn’t have BEEN able to relax and just enjoy him without the couple months of being reserved to make sure he wasn’t just pulling the wool over my eyes. Granted, a couple months might be a bit too long, lol, but most ladies don’t even give a guy a couple WEEKS to show his true colors. We invite him home the first date and then expect declarations of everlasting love by the 2nd week.
This is an EXCELLENT point.
Thanks!!
I 2nd that it's a good point. I run into this often, I don't spout off a ton of feelings by date 4 and I'm out. I'd also say that is why a lot of girls end up with losers... they will tell them whatever they want to here.... and with P's post to start the thread that is exactly what most girls want.0 -
That societal attitudes really haven't shifted to match this evolution is self-evident in the number of highly-competent, capable, confident women who do not find their match. We are still expected to apologise for being successful, for having brains, for expecting to be treated as equals, and to diminish our own accomplishments and achievements because they might make a man feel uncomfortable.
To be kind of fair about it the vast majority of guys expressing an opinion on it here say they desire this in a woman and want her to be bold as far as making contact or asking a guy out and the vast majority of the ladies here are the ones saying no way to that and prefer to the point of it having a romantic value to be the demure,feeling protected one.0 -
To be kind of fair about it the vast majority of guys expressing an opinion on it here say they desire this in a woman and want her to be bold as far as making contact or asking a guy out and the vast majority of the ladies here are the ones saying no way to that and prefer to the point of it having a romantic value to be the demure,feeling protected one.
I think you are right about most women saying they want to feel demure, feel protected. But what the women on this forum are also saying is that WHEN they become more assertive the guys appreciate it, sure, but it never seems to lead to lasting romance.
Actually, a while back several of the guys said this same thing... they appreciate when women approach them, but they rarely make a long term partner out of someone who did this. Maybe I interpreted wrong, but it seemed to me that men say they want women to "initiate" or "be bold" they're talking about smiling, flirting, showing interest, coming up with the initial conversation starter....NOT what women typically think men mean when they say they wish women would initiate (which would be to ask for phone number, ask the guy out, etc).0 -
On the contrary to you, though (and more in line with what Kitsune thinks) I think "strong" women can definitely find a place and partner in our modern society, and although there is still sexism in places, it's mostly a case of just moving somewhere else where people are more accommodating.
Of course strong stubborn women who make a point of never backing off are as much a nuisance (and digging their own grave) as strong stubborn men.
Stubborn =/= Strength.
Admitting when you are wrong is part of a learning and growing process. A strong individual uses that as a way to better themselves. People that are stubborn are insecure and afraid to admit they are wrong because they will be perceived as weak, which is ironic because that in and of itself is weakness and insecurity.
I find that there is a big different between a person that is trying to be strong, and a person that IS strong.0 -
To be kind of fair about it the vast majority of guys expressing an opinion on it here say they desire this in a woman and want her to be bold as far as making contact or asking a guy out and the vast majority of the ladies here are the ones saying no way to that and prefer to the point of it having a romantic value to be the demure,feeling protected one.
I think you are right about most women saying they want to feel demure, feel protected. But what the women on this forum are also saying is that WHEN they become more assertive the guys appreciate it, sure, but it never seems to lead to lasting romance.
Actually, a while back several of the guys said this same thing... they appreciate when women approach them, but they rarely make a long term partner out of someone who did this. Maybe I interpreted wrong, but it seemed to me that men say they want women to "initiate" or "be bold" they're talking about smiling, flirting, showing interest, coming up with the initial conversation starter....NOT what women typically think men mean when they say they wish women would initiate (which would be to ask for phone number, ask the guy out, etc).
*sighs*
I guess then does it boil down to what the OP says is true and that BOTH men and women will say they want one thing but almost always do the polar opposite?
Maybe the bottom line for many of us here is that we won`t do that or play the game so we are inherently locking ourselves out.0 -
To be kind of fair about it the vast majority of guys expressing an opinion on it here say they desire this in a woman and want her to be bold as far as making contact or asking a guy out and the vast majority of the ladies here are the ones saying no way to that and prefer to the point of it having a romantic value to be the demure,feeling protected one.
I think you are right about most women saying they want to feel demure, feel protected. But what the women on this forum are also saying is that WHEN they become more assertive the guys appreciate it, sure, but it never seems to lead to lasting romance.
Actually, a while back several of the guys said this same thing... they appreciate when women approach them, but they rarely make a long term partner out of someone who did this. Maybe I interpreted wrong, but it seemed to me that men say they want women to "initiate" or "be bold" they're talking about smiling, flirting, showing interest, coming up with the initial conversation starter....NOT what women typically think men mean when they say they wish women would initiate (which would be to ask for phone number, ask the guy out, etc).
*sighs*
I guess then does it boil down to what the OP says is true and that BOTH men and women will say they want one thing but almost always do the polar opposite?
Maybe the bottom line for many of us here is that we won`t do that or play the game so we are inherently locking ourselves out.
Sounds like a lot of blah blah nonsense. I'd rather hold out for someone that doesn't play games.0 -
BOTH men and women will say they want one thing but almost always do the polar opposite?
Maybe the bottom line for many of us here is that we won`t do that or play the game so we are inherently locking ourselves out.
Not always... Carl, you've seen me in person... you know I don't "play the game" but because everyone else does I have "locked myself out" many times as guys treat me like the normal "game playing woman."
Could just be my opinion, but I feel that we can't go against the grain and be upset at the prospects. Rather, we can hold our head up and say, " I am who I am... what you see is what you get..." and, at the same time acknowledge that this limits our prospects (no matter how *right* we may be and no matter *how much* people applaud our decisions on paper... those people aren't the ones trying to date us in real life.
And we can accept that other people AREN'T this way and a) not be surprised at their game-playing and b) take our time getting to know them so that we have ample opportunity to observe the game-playing facade drop off.0 -
I'd rather hold out for someone that doesn't play games.
I agree. We just have to realize, though, that the further away we get from game-playing "normal," the less dating options we have and the longer we have to hold out for that right someone.
Doesn't matter how "right" we are. I often get PMs that “you’re soooo right” about waiting to get to know a guy before you get your emotions all entangled. But guess what? So many women throw their heart at a man right away that he’s come to expect that behavior as a way of showing “you’re really into” him. I can whine all day about “being right” but the bottom line is, most guys walk if I haven’t shown a lot of intimacy in the first couple weeks. It’s my choice, and I accept those consequences.0 -
I should clarify that my use of the phrase "play the game" was perhaps a poor choice of words because it is taken as "game playing" which indicates someone phony,or misleading.
I meant it in the sense of accepting and going along with the apparent norm,that being ladies prefer somehow inherently jerks and guys,shallow trophies and any divergence of this is doomed to failure.0
