The right to bear arms

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Replies

  • treetop57
    treetop57 Posts: 1,578 Member
    Perhaps that post wasn't talking about you then.
  • ArroganceInStep
    ArroganceInStep Posts: 6,239 Member
    Perhaps that post wasn't talking about you then.

    What were you referring to then?
  • treetop57
    treetop57 Posts: 1,578 Member
    The people who said the things I was complaining about, obviously. Read the thread. All the things I complained about are here.
  • ArroganceInStep
    ArroganceInStep Posts: 6,239 Member
    The people who said the things I was complaining about, obviously. Read the thread. All the things I complained about are here.

    As your post was immediately after mine, and phrased to sound like it was a response to mine, it wasn't obvious. I did read the thread, and even commented that extremist posts from EITHER side weren't representative of the whole and shouldn't be taken as such.

    Reasonable people aren't arguing that there should be no gun control, or that any discussion of improvements to gun control are tantamount to trying to ban legal gun ownership, or that not wanting legal gun control means you're willing to let your family die, or any other such nonsense.

    I would fully support stricter regulations of private sale of firearms. I also have no problems with imposing a more thorough and uniformly enforced background check prior to licensing. I'm not convinced banning assault weapons or 30 round clips would solve much, particularly when you look at the statistics surrounding what classes of firearms are most often used in violent crime.

    The point I have been trying to make from the beginning though, is that those regulations don't address the problem. After Columbine, there was a huge push against violent imagery in music and video games. There was a huge push behind stopping gamemakers from creating vehicles that future killers would utilize to hone their skills. Did that do anything beyond making the 'crusaders' feel good about themselves because they were making a difference? No, it didn't do a damn thing.

    Our countries sore lack of access to effective mental health care, and the stigma surrounding it, is the underlying issue here. Trained psychiatrists in schools should be looking for warning signs. We need to increase public awarness for things to look out for. It should be easy for someone to check themselves in, or for a family to submit someone. Regular checkups should be made more accessible and be a part of basic health care. Treatment options need to be researched, and funding provided. That's hard though, and expensive.

    If you want to debate gun control, that's fine, but if you're going to talk about preventing future mass shootings and aren't discussing mental health as priority, you're kidding yourself.
  • summertime_girl
    summertime_girl Posts: 3,945 Member
    Unfortunately, those who aren't interested in gun regulations are often also not interested in changing mental health care access in this country. 2nd Amendment and no free healthcare are both things Republicans/Conservatives/Libertarians hold dear.

    So, mental health falls by the wayside. Or it is fought tooth and nail, budgets gutted.
  • ArroganceInStep
    ArroganceInStep Posts: 6,239 Member
    Unfortunately, those who aren't interested in gun regulations are often also not interested in changing mental health care access in this country. 2nd Amendment and no free healthcare are both things Republicans/Conservatives/Libertarians hold dear.

    So, mental health falls by the wayside. Or it is fought tooth and nail, budgets gutted.

    That's a fair point, but I don't believe it changes the fact that mental health care needs to be considered a priority when attempting to prevent future mass shootings. Just because something's hard and met with resistance doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed.
  • summertime_girl
    summertime_girl Posts: 3,945 Member
    I agree on that point. Comprehensive mental health and treatment is sorely lacking in this country, except for the wealthy. I was just searching for a program for someone this weekend, as a matter of fact. A 45 day in-patient was $30,000. A six month plan was $71,000. Impossible sums for anyone without a lot of money. And the alternatives were placements for the criminally ill, and basically just warehouses for the very dangerous. Not a place anyone would either derive help from, or feel safe at.
  • ArroganceInStep
    ArroganceInStep Posts: 6,239 Member
    I agree on that point. Comprehensive mental health and treatment is sorely lacking in this country, except for the wealthy. I was just searching for a program for someone this weekend, as a matter of fact. A 45 day in-patient was $30,000. A six month plan was $71,000. Impossible sums for anyone without a lot of money. And the alternatives were placements for the criminally ill, and basically just warehouses for the very dangerous. Not a place anyone would either derive help from, or feel safe at.

    The need to change this is something we agree on =)
  • marsellient
    marsellient Posts: 591 Member

    Our countries sore lack of access to effective mental health care, and the stigma surrounding it, is the underlying issue here. Trained psychiatrists in schools should be looking for warning signs. We need to increase public awarness for things to look out for. It should be easy for someone to check themselves in, or for a family to submit someone. Regular checkups should be made more accessible and be a part of basic health care. Treatment options need to be researched, and funding provided. That's hard though, and expensive.

    If you want to debate gun control, that's fine, but if you're going to talk about preventing future mass shootings and aren't discussing mental health as priority, you're kidding yourself.

    There are problems with the mental health systems in more than the U.S., but the suggestion that putting psychiatrists into schools is going to help is extremely optimistic. Any middle school teacher will tell you they know there are kids with mental health problems, but rarely do their parents recognize there's a real problem. In fact, they'll fight tooth and nail to avoid any kind of assessment and even if they've had one done outside of the school, rarely share the information. It might be helpful if there was a campaign to reduce the stigmas associated with mental illness.

    I see a lot of discussion about rifles and shotguns in mass shootings, but aren't most of the murders committed with handguns?
  • ArroganceInStep
    ArroganceInStep Posts: 6,239 Member
    There are problems with the mental health systems in more than the U.S., but the suggestion that putting psychiatrists into schools is going to help is extremely optimistic. Any middle school teacher will tell you they know there are kids with mental health problems, but rarely do their parents recognize there's a real problem. In fact, they'll fight tooth and nail to avoid any kind of assessment and even if they've had one done outside of the school, rarely share the information. It might be helpful if there was a campaign to reduce the stigmas associated with mental illness.

    I see a lot of discussion about rifles and shotguns in mass shootings, but aren't most of the murders committed with handguns?

    Reducing the stigma is very important, I agree.

    I also recognize that this might meet with resistance from parents, but I do think it's something that can be overcome. Psychiatric evaluations are something that I think should be mandatory, particularly in young people. If it's uniformly enforced I think it will be more likely accepted. Further establishing a record signalling children that are high risk would help in the future (i.e. requiring further psychiatric evaluation in order to purchase a firearm once they reach adulthood, etc.)

    This doesn't address illness as the result of trauma, and from my very limited knowledge in the field I understand that for many schizophrenia often doesn't show symptoms until late teens or older. I think that providing psychiatric evaluations as a component of someone's basic health checkup would go a long way towards assisting with this, as would making treatment something that's covered by all insurance plans.

    Won't solve everything and it's certainly not easy, but I think it's a step in the right direction.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,492 Member
    Just make the bullets really expensive.


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  • ArroganceInStep
    ArroganceInStep Posts: 6,239 Member
    Just make the bullets really expensive.


    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    Besides Chris Rock's explanation...why?
  • tsh0ck
    tsh0ck Posts: 1,970 Member
    I see a lot of discussion about rifles and shotguns in mass shootings, but aren't most of the murders committed with handguns?

    Yes. An overwhelming majority. Which is one reason why any kind of assault weapons ban will effectively do nothing to stem gun violence. The top priority needs to be mental health and preventing those people from purchasing guns. Hell, even the NRA wants to do that - and they want everyone to have guns.
  • ArroganceInStep
    ArroganceInStep Posts: 6,239 Member
    Yes. An overwhelming majority. Which is one reason why any kind of assault weapons ban will effectively do nothing to stem gun violence. The top priority needs to be mental health and preventing those people from purchasing guns. Hell, even the NRA wants to do that - and they want everyone to have guns.

    I would entertain stricter regulation of classes of firearms if legislation were first made to fix the current gun control policies we have. Just tacking more laws on top of broken ones isn't going to be beneficial, in my opinion. Also I think mental health should be a primary concern when it comes to gun control, and until I see that I have a hard time supporting other proposals.
  • tsh0ck
    tsh0ck Posts: 1,970 Member
    and that's just it. people want to SAY that mental health is being looked at regarding this issue, but it really isn't. not really. it is part of the conversation, sure. but ask people what the first thing that needs to happen, and many begin to target the scary guns. because that's the easy answer to come up with -- even if it isn't an effective answer. fixing mental health care? nah. that's too big.
  • fbmandy55
    fbmandy55 Posts: 5,263 Member
    Just wanted to add this for those of you who are not Americans and so appalled by guns. Source is in the image.

    538054_10151238538081446_672724791_n.jpg

    Though I have learned that I was a bit, not totally misinformed about my prior post, I stand by my view that anyone who thinks they don't need to have the ability and the firepower to overthrow their government is incredibly naive. Even the US government has used guns against it's citizens. People of Japanese descent were forced into camps here on our own soil, The Nazi's did it in Germany and it started the same way the US is changing now.

    By the way, Indiana is legalizing switchblade knives now. A ton of sense that makes...
  • DoingItNow2012
    DoingItNow2012 Posts: 424 Member
    Just wanted to add this for those of you who are not Americans and so appalled by guns. Source is in the image.

    Though I have learned that I was a bit, not totally misinformed about my prior post, I stand by my view that anyone who thinks they don't need to have the ability and the firepower to overthrow their government is incredibly naive. Even the US government has used guns against it's citizens. People of Japanese descent were forced into camps here on our own soil, The Nazi's did it in Germany and it started the same way the US is changing now.

    By the way, Indiana is legalizing switchblade knives now. A ton of sense that makes...

    Hi Fbmandy. The website was cut off, but I tried to search for the stats and couldn't find what you have posted. I googled it and went on the FBI website.

    In any case, I am glad that we are not like countries that settle political differences violently. Thank goodness our system of government allows smooth transitions with tools in place to oust those we have issues without war. Although if the government decides to violently attack it's own citizens individual firearms surely wouldn't stand a chance against fighter jets, drones, tanks, etc.

    I don't know if anything the US is doing with laws mimics what was done in Nazi Germany, that's not my memory of the history though. I'll have to research. I am on the side that has no problem with what was proposed. The second amendment says nothing about having the exact same weapons the government has. Thus, there are already restrictions in place. All I see is an adjustment in restrictions. I have heard no one suggesting amending the constitution or altering the second amendment.

    But for those who disagree about the amendment issue, the Supreme Court is a good place to settle that.

    That was interesting about Indiana. Just one of those outdated laws that don't make sense in current times. This is a good one "It is unlawful to shave in the center of main street".

    http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states. Pick a state, lol.
  • treetop57
    treetop57 Posts: 1,578 Member
    FRIDAY, JAN 11, 2013 10:35 AM PST

    The Hitler gun control lie

    Gun rights activists who cite the dictator as a reason against gun control have their history dangerously wrong

    http://www.salon.com/2013/01/11/stop_talking_about_hitler/
  • Lozze
    Lozze Posts: 1,917 Member
    As posted above, the people who screech about Hitler are just showing their own ignorance on history and well critical thinking.

    Do you seriously think that your guns are going to stop the American govt should they decide to initiate a dictatorship? SERIOUSLY?

    I'm also laughing at the idea that the Americans put into camps because of the ancestory during World War II is proof that taking guns away is the start of Nazi Germany.

    'First they locked away the Japenese Americas. After the war finished they then freed them and later apologized. 70 years later they took away our guns and this was a continuation of interning Japenese Americans'