Machine squats

xidia

Yeah, yeah, I know, Mehdi says don't.

However, my gym does not (yet) have a power rack/cage, although they should soon, and there's no way I can clean & press my squat weight to my shoulders.

So, is it possible to use good squat form with one of those machine thingies? I mean, the bar still goes straight up and down, right, just like it should on a good free weight squat. But, my form went all over the place, the balance was wrong and I feel like I'm learning the move from scratch. Is that normal?

And, should I just continue to squat whatever I can safely lift to my shoulders while I wait for the gym to get around to getting the right kit?

tameko2

I would do front squats or hack squats before I'd use a smith machine. The bar doesn't go straight up and down when you squat free - your body moves back and downward but the machine doesn't let you do that so it will end up putting more strain on your lower back and knees (because it forces you forward instead of letting the weight settle back onto your hips).

But if the gym isnt' going to get a rack for months you're probably going to need straps to continue with hack squats beyond a certain amount of weight.

xidia

Thanks.

I'm confused, since the SL5x5 book goes on and on about vertical bar paths. I may well have misunderstood though!

I'll investigate the front squat and hack, although I'm slightly worried that hacks will screw my knee back up...

I also got a suggestion to find a big fella to get the Olympic bar on & off my shoulders for me, which may also work. :-)

xidia

Oh, also, what about dumbbell squats, either on the shoulders or held in a hang grip? We have LOADS of dbs in the gym.

tameko2

Like I said elsewhere I haven't ever experimented with the smith machine and I've NEVER seen someone do a proper squat with it (only weird stuff) so I can't really speak from experience or observation. This is from the starting strength wiki though:

"Due to the necessity of perfect placement under the bar for proper vertical arc, it is difficult to attain perfect form on the machine, which can result in the force loss, and also result in unusual strains on the body. For those who don't believe some exercises have a perfect vertical lifting line, but rather a slight arc (such as certain bench pressing methods), it is by design impossible to do it this way on the Smith machine."

"As the Smith machine constrains the body to a single plane of motion, it does not develop the stabilization skills, or ability to force the bar into proper form, so lifting ability on it does not translate into free-weight lifting ability, whereas one can always lift on a Smith machine whatever one can free-weight (The exceptions being those exercises which, performed with free-weights have a form that follows an arc. When these exercises are adapted to the Smith machine, they may result in force loss, such as in the case of an arc-formed bench press). Weights that requires stabilization, generally free weights, are thought to be more 'functional', in that they better mimic most physical tasks that the body would normally be asked to accomplish."

So I guess the theory is that you CAN use a smith machine to squat without hurting yourself or losing some of the benefits of squatting, but its harder to get right?

Dumbbell squats are fine but you'll find that you can't hold those past a certain poundage either.

I'm thinking....since you know you're getting a proper setup at some point, you might do a combination of split squats and leg press machine for now, which will at least hit all the right muscles, and then switch to squats when you get a setup, and just accept that your squat is going to lag behind everything else. But you should be able to start from higher than 45 if you do that, it MOSTLY hits the same stuff.

Actually you'll probably want to add some separate core work too and nothing really replicates what squats do but it should help - maybe good mornings or back extensions, supermans, and ab work (crunches or whatever). I think in terms of core strength weakness for squats, most people find their low/mid back is weaker than their abs. Pendlay rows hit the mid back pretty well so you're covered there. .

^^ the downside of all this is, its gonna take a lot longer than squatting, which is why people really like the squat as an exercise.

auddii

Someone had suggested front squats. If you use the rack from the bench press station, it should be easy to get the bar to your clavicles (I did it today because I'm starting SL tomorrow, and I was curious if I was going to drop the bar on my face during an overhead press). May not be optimal, but that way you could do squats for now, and then switch to back squats when they get the power rack?

xidia

Thanks again ladies.

I'm going to look at the bench press station today, because if the bench is moveable like it is on the Smith, I'm short enough I reckonI can use that as a squat rack...failing that, I'll experiment with the alternative exercises and see what works.