the end of courtship?

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christine24t
christine24t Posts: 6,063 Member
We just had a recent thread about this but this article is interesting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/fashion/the-end-of-courtship.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0

I referenced this person before but could never remember her name, but the article talks about her and her upcoming book which I'm pumped to read! http://www.amazon.com/The-End-Sex-Generation-Unfulfilled/dp/0465002153

"Blame the much-documented rise of the “hookup culture” among young people, characterized by spontaneous, commitment-free (and often, alcohol-fueled) romantic flings. Many students today have never been on a traditional date, said Donna Freitas, who has taught religion and gender studies at Boston University and Hofstra and is the author of the forthcoming book, “The End of Sex: How Hookup Culture is Leaving a Generation Unhappy, Sexually Unfulfilled, and Confused About Intimacy.”

Hookups may be fine for college students, but what about after, when they start to build an adult life? The problem is that “young people today don’t know how to get out of hookup culture,” Ms. Freitas said. In interviews with students, many graduating seniors did not know the first thing about the basic mechanics of a traditional date. “They’re wondering, ‘If you like someone, how would you walk up to them? What would you say? What words would you use?’ ” Ms. Freitas said."

I've been on a traditional date surprisingly, but I have known many people who are my age or older and have not.
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  • flimflamfloz
    flimflamfloz Posts: 1,980 Member
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    Yes, I believe "real traditional courtship" ended a while ago.

    There is a lot of sensationalism in this article, I'm going to copy and paste someone's comment about the article with which I would tend to agree:
    Oh, I'm so sick to death of these articles that claim that twentysomethings have lost all real world social graces! This hook-up-only situation exists for some, but most of my friends go on real dates just like people did ten, twenty years ago. Rare is the formal dinner and roses setup, and sure, most of us have had a hook up relationship slowly grow into something more. But most of the time, us twentysomethings still meet a guy or lady for post-work drinks or dinner, whether we met them online or through friends or work.
  • shammxo
    shammxo Posts: 1,432 Member
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    I agree with Flim. And I'm really tired of generalizations... The person writing this article sounds bitter to me. Maybe it's just me, but that's the tone I took away from it.
  • RunIntheMud
    RunIntheMud Posts: 2,645 Member
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    I'll ditto the above two.

    The article sounds like it was written by someone that is very bitter and having a run of bad dates....
  • MikeM53082
    MikeM53082 Posts: 1,199 Member
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    In reference to the article, I say good riddance to traditional courtship.

    The world was different 30-40 years ago in regards to gender roles. Those often hated traditional gender roles are now a thing of the past. The glass ceiling has been shattered and now, according to the article, women in big cities make more than their male counterparts. Knowing this, why should any man put in the time, money, and effort to set up a formal dinner date on the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd date? The answer is.. he shouldn't. In fact, if a guy goes, I'm tempted to say he's a complete chump. You can get to know someone just as well as going for a walk in the park as you can sitting across a dinner table with them.

    The hook-up culture is here to stay. We live in a world of speed dating, serial dating, and bed hopping. No guy would ever want to spend a decent amount money on a girl who's going out on 2-3 dates with different guys each week. The guy is a complete sucker if he does.

    Now, when I go on a first date with someone, I usually meet for drinks after work. Also, this is what most of my friends do as well. If I'm enjoying her company, I don't mind paying footing the bill for her 3 Miller Lights. If not, I always recommend we go dutch. Does that make me a chump? Perhaps. However, I think as time goes on, dates are going to get more and more casual. What started as a dinner, progressed to drinks after work, which now progressed to something much more casual.

    Even though the NY Times has a good point when it comes to this article, I still take everything they print with a large chunk of salt. The NY Times is written by old people for old (and out of touch) people. Just comb their Real Estate section to see article after article about retired couples moving back into Manhattan and spending millions on a condo to live a "walkable" lifestyle. You never read about a minority couple in the Bronx trying to save up enough money to buy a $300,000 starter home. I've read numerous articles about how these same retired couples love seeing the ethnic diversity of Chinese immigrants working in the fish markets of Chinatown. Yet, the NYT will never print a story of the miserable existence of these same workers as they work long hours in horrible and dangerous conditions only to return to their 2 bedroom apartment in the far reaches of some outer borough that they share with 15 other people. NYT is best know for their "tunnel vision" when it comes to most of their articles. Read with caution.
  • kristen6022
    kristen6022 Posts: 1,926 Member
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    Oddly enough, I agree with Mike on all points. Times they have changed. With the internet, men don't pick up women any more at their houses and take them on dates. We meet at a public spot for drinks or coffee to eye the other up. If there is no spark, we look the other way. Unless a man insists on taking me to dinner, I expect to go dutch. Men don't typically ask women out anymore like they did in the past - we "hook up". Women never really know if it's a date or not. I admit to not ever having a "first date" with my boyfriend, we got to be friends, did happy hours (paid dutch) and suddenly realized it was more. Then we just went on like that.

    But Mike, some of us are a bit more classy that Miller Lite. Unfortunately my beer of choice is a tad more expensive. LOL

    I don't think the end of courtship is a bad thing, it's just progression of the times.
  • flimflamfloz
    flimflamfloz Posts: 1,980 Member
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    I don't think the end of courtship is a bad thing, it's just progression of the times.
    This.

    That said, the article aggregates a lot of (probably unrelated) notions and puts it all in one big bag.
    For example, I am against inviting any *first date* to a group event with friends (this is why my first dates happen outside of prime time, on a quiet night during the week).
  • DMZ_1
    DMZ_1 Posts: 2,889 Member
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    Good article Christine. Thank you for sharing.

    Here are some quotes from the article I wish to address. I will italicize quotes.

    Dating culture has evolved to a cycle of text messages, each one requiring the code-breaking skills of a cold war spy to interpret .”

    This is sad. The early stages of dating should be about uncertainty reduction. Text based communication is only a small sliver of the overall communication process. Even phone based communication leaves something lacking. The best communication occurs when there is an in person experience, or a good replication of the in person experience (video chats on Skype for instance).

    As one male friend recently told her: “I don’t like to take girls out. I like to have them join in on what I’m doing — going to an event, a concert .” ”.

    This is not a bad thing in terms of date planning. Events and concerts often can make better dates than the dinner date.

    That also means that suitors need to keep dates cheap and casual. A fancy dinner? You’re lucky to get a drink .”

    Absolutely. I have tremendous cost containment systems on my dates. The NYT misses the point here though. The reasons that suitors (men) need to keep dates cheap is because we know the women are sourcing through multiple options. If women want better early stage dates, see fewer prospects and actually make that clear to the man that you don’t multidate. Otherwise, it is assumed by a man that you are multidating.

    Dodgy economic prospects facing millennials also help torpedo the old, formal dating rituals. Faced with a lingering recession, a stagnant job market, and mountains of student debt, many young people — particularly victims of the “mancession” — simply cannot afford to invest a fancy dinner or show in someone they may or may not click with .”

    Oh yes. The children born of the 1980s have gotten walloped by the economy. No other age cohort has suffered more. Baby Boomers graduated into good economies and had years to get seniority in organizations and put away money. College was cheaper then. Gen X’ers were fortunate enough to graduate college during the 90s dot com boom. Gen Y’ers have entered the workforce in an era with too many college grads and advance degree grads relative to the jobs available. Job security, a staple of the Silent Generation and Baby Boomer era, has been dissipating since the 1970s, but has even gotten worse since the 1990s, which was not known as a great era for job security. When layoffs come, it is often last in, first out, meaning younger workers are at greater risk of layoff and re-entry into a soft job market. The economic stresses of Generation Y should not be underestimated, nor should they be scoffed at. Also, suitors (men), have had to compete for shrinking resources with more women than in generations past.

    A much-publicized study by Reach Advisors, a Boston-based market research group, found that the median income for young, single, childless women is higher than it is for men in many of the country’s biggest cities.

    This is not new information, and I have mentioned this in thread before and other types of discussion for years.

    Cheryl Yeoh, a tech entrepreneur in San Francisco, said that she has been on many formal dates of late — plays, fancy restaurants. One suitor even presented her with red roses. For her, the old traditions are alive simply because she refuses to put up with anything less. She generally refuses to go on any date that is not set up a week in advance, involving a degree of forethought.

    I foresee that Cheryl Yeoh will be single for a very long time. However, if she does get what she wants, she could be very happy.
  • Danielle_2013
    Danielle_2013 Posts: 806 Member
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    After those reviews I didn't bother with article...till later.

    Mike - I find it funny that you of all people think it good that traditions of dating have ended...yet what you seem to want is a fairly traditional relationship. You aren't attracted to the modern, independent, career-driven woman.

    My ex (sniff sniff) took me out for a lovely dinner on our first date. He strongly preferred to pay when we went out..and so I would bring over food and make meals or bring little gifts when we were at his place. He also makes at least double of what I do and knew it.

    All the men I have met or who have been attracted to me lately tend to be a little traditional and the dates I have been on are much more extensive than a simple drink. Intentions seem quite clear from the start. Maybe I attract this, or maybe I am just lucky? I don't know...but it absolutely works for me. I feel feminine and special this way.
  • DMZ_1
    DMZ_1 Posts: 2,889 Member
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    Welcome to the Mike quotation hour.
    Those often hated traditional gender roles are now a thing of the past.

    Yes, they are. Are we better off for it? In some ways, we are. In other ways, we are not.
    women in big cities make more than their male counterparts. Knowing this, why should any man put in the time, money, and effort to set up a formal dinner date on the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd date? The answer is.. he shouldn't. In fact, if a guy goes, I'm tempted to say he's a complete chump. You can get to know someone just as well as going for a walk in the park as you can sitting across a dinner table with them.

    I agree completely. I think given many of the shifting mores, a need for greater creativity and cost containment is essential in early rounds dates. A man can create a quality date, without a dinner, for less than $20 in a lot of places. Not bad at all.
    No guy would ever want to spend a decent amount money on a girl who's going out on 2-3 dates with different guys each week. The guy is a complete sucker if he does.

    If women made it clear from the outset that they were not multi dating and said that they put value on the time spent together, I think in exchange they would receive better first dates.
    If I'm enjoying her company, I don't mind paying footing the bill for her 3 Miller Lights

    Sure, and I see things the same way. I don’t seem to recall a woman knocking down Miller Lites on dates with me.
  • AnnaPixie
    AnnaPixie Posts: 7,439 Member
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    I think there is a clear distinction between a first date with someone you have just met off the internet and someone you want to get to know.

    I agree that this is an age of 'meet and greet' and a 'meets and greet' shouldnt involve much money or courtship or romance.....particularly.

    Also, if people are multi dating then I find the romance is taken out of the whole thing too. But I'd never heard of multi dating until I started speaking to Americans.

    However, no matter what side of the pond, if/when there comes a point when both parties want to date each other, exclusively, then I think it does (and should) involve a courtship as Danielle pointed out. Personally I've never had an 'relationship' where all we did is 'hook up'. That is what I'd call a FWB!
  • MissingMinnesota
    MissingMinnesota Posts: 7,486 Member
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    How do you make it known that you don't multiple date? It seems to be assumed now a days that everyone does but I really think it is a smaller majority then people that would prefer to only date one person at a time.

    Out of my group of friends (give or take 20 girls) I know 3 of them that multiple date.
  • christine24t
    christine24t Posts: 6,063 Member
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    I think this multi date thing is mostly a myth.

    I think it is a good idea to include a person in your life if you want to date them, but a clear distinction needs to be made that "I like you and I want you to be included in my life" not "you're a friend and that's it." You have to take that extra step otherwise the person is going to think that you don't like them that much. You have to be clear that you're including them because you like them not because you're cheap.
  • MikeM53082
    MikeM53082 Posts: 1,199 Member
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    Also, if people are multi dating then I find the romance is taken out of the whole thing too. But I'd never heard of multi dating until I started speaking to Americans.

    Anna, this is not an accurate representation of the entire U.S.

    This multi-dating is generally much more common in big East Coast cities, like New York City (and other progressive big cities). My college roommate has been living in NYC since 2004 and all he cares about is dating and bedding as many woman as humanly possible. Why not though? In an area where there are many successful, well educated men.. why not do this if you're a guy? This creates a hook-up culture, as we've read in the article.

    I can even detect a major difference between city and suburban dating where I live (Miami metro area). In the city limits, it's very much a speed dating, online dating, hook-up culture. Whereas in the suburbs, there seems to be a more conservative, traditional courtship approach. It's not uncommon to see 20 year old's getting married in the suburbs. I've lived in both the city and suburbs and get see a huge difference in dating.

    Also, dating in those "oh so dreaded" flyover states (*sarcasm*) is nothing like what's written in that article.
  • RunIntheMud
    RunIntheMud Posts: 2,645 Member
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    After those reviews I didn't bother with article...till later.

    Mike - I find it funny that you of all people think it good that traditions of dating have ended...yet what you seem to want is a fairly traditional relationship. You aren't attracted to the modern, independent, career-driven woman.

    My ex (sniff sniff) took me out for a lovely dinner on our first date. He strongly preferred to pay when we went out..and so I would bring over food and make meals or bring little gifts when we were at his place. He also makes at least double of what I do and knew it.

    All the men I have met or who have been attracted to me lately tend to be a little traditional and the dates I have been on are much more extensive than a simple drink. Intentions seem quite clear from the start. Maybe I attract this, or maybe I am just lucky? I don't know...but it absolutely works for me. I feel feminine and special this way.

    Danielle - I think we've barely escaped the "Millenials" view of life. My dates have been more traditional as well, and that's the way I prefer them. I have had coffee dates, but just as many dinner dates. I don't think one is better than the other, but do think that once the first date is past, I am far more of a traditionalist.
  • MikeM53082
    MikeM53082 Posts: 1,199 Member
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    Danielle - I think we've barely escaped the "Millenials" view of life. My dates have been more traditional as well, and that's the way I prefer them. I have had coffee dates, but just as many dinner dates. I don't think one is better than the other, but do think that once the first date is past, I am far more of a traditionalist.

    Virginia.

    Virginia is for lovers too. Might be a reason for all that proper courtship.
  • AnnaPixie
    AnnaPixie Posts: 7,439 Member
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    Also, if people are multi dating then I find the romance is taken out of the whole thing too. But I'd never heard of multi dating until I started speaking to Americans.

    Anna, this is not an accurate representation of the entire U.S.

    This multi-dating is generally much more common in big East Coast cities, like New York City (and other progressive big cities). My college roommate has been living in NYC since 2004 and all he cares about is dating and bedding as many woman as humanly possible. Why not though? In an area where there are many successful, well educated men.. why not do this if you're a guy? This creates a hook-up culture, as we've read in the article.

    I can even detect a major difference between city and suburban dating where I live (Miami metro area). In the city limits, it's very much a speed dating, online dating, hook-up culture. Whereas in the suburbs, there seems to be a more conservative, traditional courtship approach. It's not uncommon to see 20 year old's getting married in the suburbs. I've lived in both the city and suburbs and get see a huge difference in dating.

    Also, dating in those "oh so dreaded" flyover states (*sarcasm*) is nothing like what's written in that article.

    I don't doubt what you're saying. I only said I hadn't heard of it until this forum. It's just not something that goes on here, once you meet someone you like and want a relationship. If you're having a relationship, you dont hook up and if you hook up and/or sleep around that is a FWB! (Women do it too!!)

    What I'm saying is that if you're having a 'relationship' with someone then I still think courtship exists. You go out together, drinks, meals, ice skating, whatever...........
  • jenbit
    jenbit Posts: 4,289 Member
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    hmmmm I'm biased we all know I am the Queen of the hook-up and hang out. I see no reason that a guy should take me out on a first date unless we already know each other well. To know each other well we would have to hang out first. My go to hang out point is going to the bar. Come out to the bar and hang with me. I'll buy my own drinks, we can dance ,sing and talk. No pressure, no stress and fun. I also have no problem being invited to an event that he would want me to tag along to ie concerts and such. Its kinda part of my nature lol
  • Danielle_2013
    Danielle_2013 Posts: 806 Member
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    Danielle - I think we've barely escaped the "Millenials" view of life. My dates have been more traditional as well, and that's the way I prefer them. I have had coffee dates, but just as many dinner dates. I don't think one is better than the other, but do think that once the first date is past, I am far more of a traditionalist.

    I think age is a possibility... but Mike is totally right (in my opinion) regarding location. If you live in Vancouver.. you will absolutely experience the multi-date, hookup culture. Many of my friends are (unhappily) immersed in it. Vancouver guys are notorious for being players. There are more quality available women than men here it seems..and a lot of the men seem to believe they have their pick. It gets amusing when they get to be 35 and older however, the bachelor ways don't fly and they are desperately lonely.
    But for me personally.. I don't fit into that scene. I know my market! ;) For Vancouver, I'm not thin enough, I'm not loaded and I don't worship the city or lululemon wear. I do MUCH better in the suburbs..where things are a little more low key, slightly more relaxed and perhaps traditional(?), people are less superficial, being overweight is not quite as terrible and men seem to possibly want a real relationship or partner..

    My ex (sniff sniff) was only 31. But a very "old soul" I suppose. The current interest (not on my side) is 45. The way they treat me is very similar.. so I'm not sure if it is generational or individual.
  • RunIntheMud
    RunIntheMud Posts: 2,645 Member
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    Virginia.

    Virginia is for lovers too. Might be a reason for all that proper courtship.

    Hahaha....quite possibly. Although I've weeded out my fair share that wanted to "hang out". It's fine in the right situation, but I don't want to hang out with a group of friends as a first date.
  • DMZ_1
    DMZ_1 Posts: 2,889 Member
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    Anna, this is not an accurate representation of the entire U.S.

    This multi-dating is generally much more common in big East Coast cities, like New York City (and other progressive big cities). My college roommate has been living in NYC since 2004 and all he cares about is dating and bedding as many woman as humanly possible. Why not though? In an area where there are many successful, well educated men.. why not do this if you're a guy? This creates a hook-up culture, as we've read in the article.

    I can even detect a major difference between city and suburban dating where I live (Miami metro area). In the city limits, it's very much a speed dating, online dating, hook-up culture. Whereas in the suburbs, there seems to be a more conservative, traditional courtship approach. It's not uncommon to see 20 year old's getting married in the suburbs. I've lived in both the city and suburbs and get see a huge difference in dating.

    Also, dating in those "oh so dreaded" flyover states (*sarcasm*) is nothing like what's written in that article.

    Dallas has an interesting dynamic. Multi dating is very relevant here. So it is not just a New York and Boston thing.

    In terms of political orientation, the city of Dallas itself is known to be liberal to moderate, while the Dallas suburbs are conservative. Being single in the Dallas suburbs would be quite different than being single in Dallas city limits.

    As for your college roommate, the downside to this is constantly looking over your shoulder and being out on the prowl, which can be emotionally draining. But the emotionally draining sentiment is better than being in the wrong relationship. A healthy, stable relationship is a better arrangement.