Women on the front lines??
Options
Replies
-
As it was said...if they can do the same PT standards and marksmanship as the male standard, fine by me. Although they may want to ease into this with female combat platoons or squads first before full integration. The common debate is also based on a false dichotomy of comparing a guy who looks like rambo to your sweet grandmother. If you have ever seen what an average soldier, Marine, or any other service member looks like in real life, it is a far cry from what hollywood portays. They are regular people with discipline and an extreme workout regiment. I dare say I know quite a few women who could have been in a combat arms MOS. Physically, could they ever be SF or a Navy Seal? Maybe...but it will be extremely rare. But could a larger percentage of women meet the minimum requirement expected of an infantry grunt or Marine,..sure.
As far as feminine hygeine goes.....we currently have robots on mars looking at martian soil....I am sure we can figure out how to stop a leak.
Rape. Already rules against that for our troops. As far as a fear of being raped by the enemy.....is that worse or better than getting your head sawed off with a rusty knife? Give me a choice between being raped, water boarded, electrocuted, burned, stabbed, drowned, beaten, cut, or just plain ole killed.....I'll pick taking it up the poop chute...but that's just me. I am not minimizing rape, but I don't think this is the worst thing for female fighters to worry about.0 -
I believe that if a woman wants to go on the front line [I never would but that's just me personally] then she should be allowed. I understand what you're saying about worse things happening to women compared to men, but I think as long as you know the risks your taking. Women can do just as well on the front line as men and I don't think we should be constantly protecting women from doing what they want to do.
I don't think this is a question of whether someone "wants to go on the front line" or not. The question is whether they are capable of it or not. If a person is not able to carry their own weight, they are jeopardizing those around them.0 -
Rape. Already rules against that for our troops. As far as a fear of being raped by the enemy.....is that worse or better than getting your head sawed off with a rusty knife? Give me a choice between being raped, water boarded, electrocuted, burned, stabbed, drowned, beaten, cut, or just plain ole killed.....I'll pick taking it up the poop chute...but that's just me. I am not minimizing rape, but I don't think this is the worst thing for female fighters to worry about.
I agree with the second part, rape would be the least of my worries after being captured by the enemy but I don't think that I have to argue the first part. Rules against rape when it comes to our troops don't mean that it doesn't happen...0 -
If the women can pass the same standards as men, then they should be able to go into combat. all these years women have been fighting for equal rights. this is all part of the package. As long as they can perform as well as a man in the job they are assigned, then go for it. The abuse a woman can suffer if captured by the enemy is no worse than what a man can suffer. There are all kinds of tortures and that is where training etc... takes over.
For many years women were not allowed to be pilots or mechanics and I know many that are in that field in the service now. They are some of the best out there.
Many other countires allow women in combat positions and there are many historical women that were soldiers.0 -
I don't really know where I stand on this.
One factor I kept seeing come up was rape. That women in a more....hostile environment, are going to be more prone to rape, either by fellow service members or by the enemy. Any thoughts on that?
Women get raped in Officer Candidate School here in the US. If we put women, that should be required to pass the same test as a man, on the front lines there will not be many women out there. Now throw in the fact that the ratio of men to women would be what? 1 woman for every 50 or so men? Out in the field for how long? Tours last up to a year. The longer she is out there the more her chances are of getting raped by being the only woman out there with several men. That being the men that are supposed to be working by her side. Also keep in mind that we are in countries that see women as property and not a human being. Remember those women that get acid thrown in their faces or gang raped on public buses and sodomized then left for dead on the side of the road? Those women are citizens of their own countries.0 -
i think women should kick some *kitten*.0
-
GI Jane was a great movie. I don't know jack about being in the military. Just from what my relatives tell me, some can pull their weight, most can't. My brother in law who's a Marine Staff Sgt based in Quanaco VA, says it's a porblem when they get bad cramps during exercise drills. But for the most part, he doesn't see an issue at all. If you can hang, why not. Women want to be treated fairly, by all means.0
-
Stop bringing up rape. It's not a reason to not allow women. Frankly I think the men here should be pretty damn insulted that you think they are such animals that they not only can't control themselves but they are low life criminals on top of it. Rape will happen. It will happen if women are allowed on the front lines. It will happen if they are on a base stateside. It will happen if they are 80 years old. It will happen if they live in the city. But are you going to say that women shouldn't be allowed downtown because they might get raped? Of course not! That would be assinine.
If a woman can meet the same standards then she should be allowed. Even then, the standards are staggered based on height and weight. A 6'4" 250 built like a rock guy and a 5'4" 120 lbs guy can both serve on the front lines. They don't have to meet the exact same standards. The little guy could never carry the big guy to safety. But I've never heard anyone say that combat roles should only be manned by men over 6' tall. Suddenly though when you're talking about a 5'4" 120 woman it seems to become a big deal that she won't be able to help that big guy to safety.
Also, women are aready in combat. They may not have actually served on the front lines at their MOS but that doesn't mean they were never in a position to kill someone or be in danger. Tammy Duckworth didn't lose her legs in a sewing accident FFS.0 -
It's fine as long as there is no draft for either gender. Of course women will have to register for selective service next, that is where this will lead.0
-
If a female soldier is equally as capable as her male equivalent, I can see no just reason to prevent her from serving in the frontline position her abilities make her eligible for, should she wish to do so.0
-
I don't really know where I stand on this.
One factor I kept seeing come up was rape. That women in a more....hostile environment, are going to be more prone to rape, either by fellow service members or by the enemy. Any thoughts on that?
Women get raped in Officer Candidate School here in the US. If we put women, that should be required to pass the same test as a man, on the front lines there will not be many women out there. Now throw in the fact that the ratio of men to women would be what? 1 woman for every 50 or so men? Out in the field for how long? Tours last up to a year. The longer she is out there the more her chances are of getting raped by being the only woman out there with several men. That being the men that are supposed to be working by her side. Also keep in mind that we are in countries that see women as property and not a human being. Remember those women that get acid thrown in their faces or gang raped on public buses and sodomized then left for dead on the side of the road? Those women are citizens of their own countries.
Women are not the only victims of rape. Male soldiers are just at much at risk of sexual violence, both within their own organisations, and in prisoner of war-type situations.0 -
Rape. Already rules against that for our troops. As far as a fear of being raped by the enemy.....is that worse or better than getting your head sawed off with a rusty knife? Give me a choice between being raped, water boarded, electrocuted, burned, stabbed, drowned, beaten, cut, or just plain ole killed.....I'll pick taking it up the poop chute...but that's just me. I am not minimizing rape, but I don't think this is the worst thing for female fighters to worry about.
I agree with the second part, rape would be the least of my worries after being captured by the enemy but I don't think that I have to argue the first part. Rules against rape when it comes to our troops don't mean that it doesn't happen...
It's going to be similar to any other integration of soldiers in history (black soldier into white platoons), I am sure there will be some sexual misconduct, and the chain of command will slam the book so hard on the first perpetrators as to make an example it will set the example. I think that rape will be the least of the problems. I think what will more likely be a problem in the beginning is romantic feelings and competition between male soldiers to win female affection...especially on deployments. She might look like Shrek in the rear, but after 6 months she looks like Princess Fiona.0 -
Rape. Already rules against that for our troops. As far as a fear of being raped by the enemy.....is that worse or better than getting your head sawed off with a rusty knife? Give me a choice between being raped, water boarded, electrocuted, burned, stabbed, drowned, beaten, cut, or just plain ole killed.....I'll pick taking it up the poop chute...but that's just me. I am not minimizing rape, but I don't think this is the worst thing for female fighters to worry about.
I agree with the second part, rape would be the least of my worries after being captured by the enemy but I don't think that I have to argue the first part. Rules against rape when it comes to our troops don't mean that it doesn't happen...
It's going to be similar to any other integration of soldiers in history (black soldier into white platoons), I am sure there will be some sexual misconduct, and the chain of command will slam the book so hard on the first perpetrators as to make an example it will set the example. I think that rape will be the least of the problems. I think what will more likely be a problem in the beginning is romantic feelings and competition between male soldiers to win female affection...especially on deployments. She might look like Shrek in the rear, but after 6 months she looks like Princess Fiona.
Oh, and I forgot to add this, sorry. Military women are already serving in hugely male dominated work places already. MPs, Medics, support, ect. Combat guys, I don't think, are any more likely to rape than support guys. At least I would hope.0 -
Former 82nd Airborne (knew women who were in the 82nd), deployed to Grenada (never fired a shot in anger but did put an M 16 in someone's face in combat) , graduated from Officer Candidate School.
"front lines" is not the same as serving in the Infantry. Supply folks can end up in the front lines because a classic tactic is to parachute into the rear area, disrupt supply and allow the forward forces (infantry, artillery, and armor) to die from lack of supplies. So, yes, the supply sargeant, gender neutral, can get to fight if the enemy uses that tactic.
What our government is doing, as best I can tell, is allowing women to serve in the Combat Arms in combat - infantry, artillery, and armor. - to close with an engage the enemy. I was in the artillery and we had little bullets (42 pounds) and, as an officer, I was in a 155 howitzer unit with big bullets (95 pounds +/-). A woman will have a very hard time humping a 155 round but it would be easier with a 42 pound round. Even when it's 113º, in the shade.
I have no problems with women serving wherever they want but there is a cost in many, many areas - food, medical care, clothing, R&R, sleeping arrangements. We can do it if we want but, as I've said to more than one client, "How much money you got?"
Rape - it happens both ways. I've "had an intervention" with an NCO who was hassling a very handsome private. A friend of mine and I met with the NCO one evening in the day room (my friend and I were both PFC's at the time) and we made very, very clear to this E-5 that the PVT was off limits to him. An inanimate object was used in the intervention. It was not loaded and did not have a magazine but it was so close to the NCO that he wasn't able to tell. Yes, nasty stuff happens.
A classic problem we had in the 82nd and when I was stationed at Ft. Knox was not rape but prostitution. When you're out in the field, you get to take a shower every couple of weeks and, without fail, some young lady is engaged in a little free enterprise. Guys get upset and jealous and ripped off so they fight with each other and the pimp and there's always STD's. It's called a "short arm inspection" for a reason.
Officer Candidate School - We started with about 200 males and 25 females and the women got hit on a lot. I met and married a woman who was a fellow candidate - we had little contact as basic officer candidates but, toward the end of the school, we got to know each other and we married about 6 months after graduation. The reason we had little contact was the "three man rule" - had to have three people in a room. If you were caught in a room with a person of the opposite sex, you were expelled from OCS immediately.
Despite that, a guy who had been my roommate for a while got another candidate pregnant. This guy was getting divorced and was looking at child support for 3 kids and knew that his career would be over before it started if he got caught and yet he still couldn't keep it in his pants. Add more women, get more pregnancies, get more fights, more bad conduct discharges. It ain't rocket science.
Physical strength - can't get there from here. Bonnie Morrow won the women's PT award in my class. She did something like 70+ sit ups, maybe 50 pushups, but I don't know her two mile run time (she was able to do something like 10 pullups by the end of OCS). She was a sweet lady and her husband was at OCS at the same time so everyone was psyched about how well Bonnie did.
I did well in PT in OCS - 69 pushups (real pushups - not the "monkey f*cking a football" pushups that most people do), 79 sit-ups, and 11:09 for two miles so I could smoke Bonnie. But I was nowhere near the top 10 in my class (one classmate had been a running back for U of Tenn and another guy had been Ranger of the Year in 1984).
Bonnie couldn't carry the M-60 machine gun or the PRC-77 radio and she wouldn't have been able to hump a 60 pound rucksack, either. She was strong for her size but how would she have carried me (6' 1", 182)-even if I'd had a leg missing?
I was 26 when I enlisted in the Army. I had my BA and part of a master's but I wanted to be an officer. There were no OCS slots so I joined the 82nd - the beret hooked me - and it took me a couple of years to get to OCS and get my commission. I was 29 when I got out of artillery office basic and was sent to Ft. Knox. I was in good shape, per the stats above, and I wanted to be attached to an infantry unit (the arty guy moves with an armor or infantry unit and calls artillery rounds, close air, etc, for the unit commander). I met with my boss, a Captain, and he told me that I'd been assigned to a tank unit. I was disappointed because I wanted to be with the infantry. I asked him why and he told me straight out - I wouldn't be able to stand up to the physical demands of the infantry. I'd spent a lot of quality time with a rucksack in the 82nd and was a physical specimen but, at age 29, I didn't have the stamina to work with the kids.
If that was the case, and I have no reason to doubt it, how would we expect a female, who, statistically has almost no chance of being as fit as I was, to be assigned?
Guys looking out for girls - I think that's going to happen for a long, long time and people will die because of it. Our society is far less gender binary that it used to be (trust me, I know - my 6' 6" daughter was male for the first 24 years of her life) but I firmly believe that men will react differently to a wounded female than they will to a wounded male.
Close quarters - I was a fire direction officer. Me and four guys in a troop carrier with a tall roof. Even though you wash, after a while, we smelled. We sometimes had to take a leak on the move or have a bowel movement. Any of you ladies want to drop your pants an have a bowel movement in front of your fellow soldiers? Or doing a hasty withdrawal where you collapse everything, throw it in the track, and jump on. What if Bonnie couldn't hang on and she fell of the back, in a column of moving vehicles. Tankers call infantry "crunchies" for a reason. It happens.
These are personal recollections so I know that they are just small pieces of a large, complex puzzle but what civilians cannot fathom is how different the Army is (the Marines are at least as hard core as the 82nd but I won't comment on the Navy or the Air Force). It's a harsh, tiring, brutal life - even in peace time - and it's extremely hard for folks on the outside to comprehend what it's like much less be able to even know if it's good to bring women into that environment.
My personal concern - do not lower the physical standards, regardless of genitalia. If you can't carry me off the battlefield, can't carry an M-60 (machine gun) or hang with me on forced road march (run 100 steps, walk 100 steps in battle dress uniform with a ruck, ammo, hand grenades, and protective mask) for 10 miles or all night or whatever, then I don't want you in "my Army".
Food for thought.0 -
I think if they want to, fine. They are aware the risks involved.0
-
Women are already serving in hostile areas, just not on the "front line" - what would be the difference? There are thousands of women that are serving overseas and have to leave their children. Its done every day!!! As far as periods - birth control helps and tampons -simple fix!! Rape? Well that happens in the US - so not sure how that is even brought up!
My only issue with women serving the front line is more in regards to POW. If the enemy catches a woman the torture may be much more intense than would be a man. However, depending on the country - the men can get worse forms of torture! So.... its not a solid argument.
If a woman choses a career field that will take her to the front lines, she better be ready for it. Mentally, emotionally and physically!!0
