New Vegan (again) but oh - the dilemas!

Yogi_Carl

Well - I've been here before having switched in and out of veganism from vegetarianism. I get the cruelty to animal side of the argument and is the main driving force behind my decision when I switch back to being a vegan in my life choices.

But I am also very much aware that this still does not acheive the perfect world I wish to live in.

Some examples - if the grassland in the UK is not used to raise animals, it is of no use to growing cereal of vegetable crops - will there be enough arable land to feed the world if everyone decides to switch to a vegan diet?

And what about the fossil fuels still needed to run machinery used to sow, to plow, to harvest?

Growing vegetables and cereals to eat instead of rearing animals and exploiting them is still not entirely animal family. Countless wild animals are killed in the most horrific ways during harvest as machinery thrashes its way across the fields and are deprived of their habitiats. Veganism isn't without it's deaths.

What about choices in clothing and footwear? Yes, we can choose non animal items but that increases demands on more and more petrochemicals, increasing global pollution and using up a finite resource.

It's enough to have me running back to the relative safety of vegetarianism or meat eating - I just can't resolve it all in my head. I can make myself ill just trying to hold it all together - it just won't hold together.

It sounds like I've no sooner joined the Vegan group that I am causing problems, but that is not the case. I am hoping there are others in the group who have managed to resolve some of these issues and can help me resolve them for myself.

Any thoughts?

LaNetsah

Just sounds like a bunch of excuses to me. The only reason for continuing to eat other animal products is the selfish need to satisfy your taste buds.

veganashley

There is no such thing as a perfect vegan. Anybody who tells you otherwise is full of it. We ALL do things that could be considered "unvegan." The important thing is doing the best you can.

For me, if I have the ability to make what I consider a more ethical choice, I do. For me this means no animal products in my food, clothing, or personal care products. It means donating my time, money, and/or energy to animal welfare organizations. It means buying fair trade products whenever I can afford it (humans are animals too). It means doing my best not to support companies with shady business practices.

Doing a little bit is always, always, always better than doing nothing. As vegans, I think we do more than a little bit. You should feel proud of yourself for making the choices you deem most ethical. If everyone lived by that principle, we'd all be a lot better off.

LaNetsah

There is no such thing as a perfect vegan. Anybody who tells you otherwise is full of it. We ALL do things that could be considered "unvegan." The important thing is doing the best you can.

For me, if I have the ability to make what I consider a more ethical choice, I do. For me this means no animal products in my food, clothing, or personal care products. It means donating my time, money, and/or energy to animal welfare organizations. It means buying fair trade products whenever I can afford it (humans are animals too). It means doing my best not to support companies with shady business practices.

Doing a little bit is always, always, always better than doing nothing. As vegans, I think we do more than a little bit. You should feel proud of yourself for making the choices you deem most ethical. If everyone lived by that principle, we'd all be a lot better off.

YES.

ACSL3

Compassionatecook.com is a good resource to try. She has a free podcast and some of her earlier ones (accessible though iTunes) cover some of this. She has one that talks about it being impossible to be a 'perfect vegan' and that's usually how people try to perceive vegans

simplyeater

Not being able to be perfect isn't an excuse for not trying to be better. I read something like that once and it makes sense. If we all just threw up our hands because we couldn't solve ALL the world's problems, we'd never get anything done. Just focus on doing better all the time and you will be making a difference.

Yogi_Carl

Well that was a baptism of fire!

Thanks everyone for your replies - I agree with your views - not being able to solve all problems doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can where we are with what we have.

It doesn't take away from the fact that, as we hopefully move towards a more humane and sustainable way of producing foods, other problems will appear - the need for more agricultural land, the need for more fuel to run farm machinery, the changes that will have to be made to our countryside spaces - these are not just a load of excuses, they will each become real if we are to change the way we produce and consume foods.

As a vegetarian I buried my head in the sand about where "free range eggs" really came from, how milk and cheese were really produced etc, now I have made the step to being vegan I want to make sure I don't ignore real implications and new demands of a vegan world.

On the whole I am optimistic.

thanks folks

vegandave

"Never do nothing because you can't do everything. Just do something." - Colleen Patrick Goudreau
Most important is that we have been given a light that we need to share. When we live a life that
makes veganism attractive, the world will most certainly change.

veganashley

Well that was a baptism of fire!

Thanks everyone for your replies - I agree with your views - not being able to solve all problems doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can where we are with what we have.

It doesn't take away from the fact that, as we hopefully move towards a more humane and sustainable way of producing foods, other problems will appear - the need for more agricultural land, the need for more fuel to run farm machinery, the changes that will have to be made to our countryside spaces - these are not just a load of excuses, they will each become real if we are to change the way we produce and consume foods.

As a vegetarian I buried my head in the sand about where "free range eggs" really came from, how milk and cheese were really produced etc, now I have made the step to being vegan I want to make sure I don't ignore real implications and new demands of a vegan world.

On the whole I am optimistic.

thanks folks

I guess I'm just not understanding your point here. The problems you've outlined here are relevant to everyone who eats - not just vegans. Plants are grown for animal feed, too. Lots of them. I don't think anybody is going to argue that veganism is a cure-all for every problem in our agricultural system. But unless you're going to live off the grid, grow 100% of your own food, and completely retreat from society, you pretty much just have to do what you can given your circumstances.

Yogi_Carl

I think my point is that, as society moves away from animals to produce food, we will replace grazing land with more crops which in turn will be habited by wild animals which will be killed in the process of land management - plowing and harvesting. The death of animals in inevitable regardless of chosen diet - one is deliberate, the other is incidental. I would argue that the vegan choice is the higher one ethicallt but we can't stick our heads in the sand and tell ourselves our choice does not have a significant impact on animals also.

The point has also been made that a lot of grazing land is just too poor for arable use - has it been proven that there is enough land already to feed an already over-populated planet without resorting to animal use; regardless of the ethics? That's a question, not an argument - simply, has it been investigated and proven?

GoodMorningGirl

I look at this way... society is not moving away from meat-eating... from the documentaries I've watched, meat consumption is going up all around the world. I feel like my role as a vegan is to "balance out" the higher meat consumption of other people who choose to eat meat. If lots of us could eat less meat, be vegetarian, or be vegan, it would somewhat reduce the demands on our environment and ease animal suffering, as well as benefit our health and make us less of a drain on the health care system.

vegandave

@C4RL05 - Really seems to me, that you're battling the internal justification for eating and exploiting animals. At the end of the day, why do you care what the rest of the world does? The essence of the journey is to do what's right, for the sake that it's right. Nothing more, nothing less. If I have saved the life of a single sentient being, I have done my part. If I can save more, all the better.

Independent of that, we need to speak in strictly vegan terms. A plant based vegan diet requires 1/12 the land area required for agriculture. Advances in hydroponics mean we could cultivate plant based foods indoors or underground. Heck, one day we'll be able to cultivate plants in orbit or in space. If you are as concerned as you appear to be, about sentient beings and the environment, vegetarianism isn't even a choice. Sure, you don't eat the meat, but what do you think they do with the helpless bovines after they've given the last of their milk for your cheese. What about their male offspring that become veal, and their female offspring that are relegated to a similar life of impregnation and milk production. The chickens after being spent for your eggs. And how much land is contaminated by the methane they produce, how much water do they need, how much land does it take to feed them? Meat consumption is one of the most inefficient ways to obtain protein.

At issue, is that we need to STOP talking happy meat - i.e reducing suffering, and start talking abolition. What if the northern US prior to the civil war was sold on 'happy slaves', would that have made it ok? Every time we talk happy meat, we reduce guilt, increasing consumption, exploitation and suffering.

Yogi_Carl

@C4RL05 - Really seems to me, that you're battling the internal justification for eating and exploiting animals.

I disagree. I am actually making the transition from vegetarianism - which I recognise is the ultimate in hypocrisy where animal exploitation is concerned - to veganism, which I recognise is the only way forward for a sustainable existence.

However, for the reasons I have layed out ealier in this thread, even a vegan approach will mean the deaths of numerous wild animals through land management, soil preparation and harvesting on an industrial scale, the use of pesticides and the animal culling necessary to protect crops. Not a justification for exploiting animals for meat and other commodities, I agree, but veganism is not without it's animal deaths. Admitting, instead of ignoring, these problems will hopefully bring about long term solutions.

@vegandave - of course I care what the rest of the world does - we are all connected and ort collective actions affect us all.

I am interested in the idea that a plant based vegan diet requires 1/12 (one twelvth?) the land area required compared to agriculture. This is good news as it actually means we could release more pasturelands and poorer quality land to natural management; maybe permaculture. I was under the impression that we would need more land under a global vegan diet and pasture land is just too poor for arable crops. I would be interested if you have managed to find any solid evidence for those figures - not a challenge - I would be genuinely interested to read any supporting material.

Yogi_Carl

I look at this way... society is not moving away from meat-eating... from the documentaries I've watched, meat consumption is going up all around the world. I feel like my role as a vegan is to "balance out" the higher meat consumption of other people who choose to eat meat. If lots of us could eat less meat, be vegetarian, or be vegan, it would somewhat reduce the demands on our environment and ease animal suffering, as well as benefit our health and make us less of a drain on the health care system.

This is a well balanced approach - I can work with this and feel hopeful that my - and your - actions are making a difference.
thank you

alanlmarshall

Veganism uses less farmland. The majority of farming is for animal feed.

ThriftyChica12

hmmmmm...arguing the PROBLEMS and FLAWS of veganism in an attempt to "switch to veganism"...sounds like a maze of circular logic that leads nowhere.

i am vegan because I don't want beings to die for my tastebuds. yes, beings still die at the hands of others. yes, animals are killed during veggie harvesting.

the simplest thing i have control over in this world, the only thing, are my actions. what i put into my mouth. just because beings are dying anyway, does not mean i need to add to that suffering.

if you do not want, NEED, to go vegan in the deepest fiber of your being, you will not. or you will for a time, then quit, adding to the world's belief that veganism is not "do-able".

i used to eat meat, then i was vegetarian for years. i finally went vegan when i could not imagine anything else. watch a slaughterhouse video--your mind will be made up for you.

until you make the decision from inside you, as automatic at helping a dying person in the street, or refraining from stealing in a store, no argument or persuasion will make you. veganism should never be something you force on yourself.

ThriftyChica12

I am interested in the idea that a plant based vegan diet requires 1/12 (one twelvth?) the land area required compared to agriculture. This is good news as it actually means we could release more pasturelands and poorer quality land to natural management; maybe permaculture. I was under the impression that we would need more land under a global vegan diet and pasture land is just too poor for arable crops. I would be interested if you have managed to find any solid evidence for those figures - not a challenge - I would be genuinely interested to read any supporting material.

these facts are explained in the book "Thrive" by vegan tri-athlete Brendan Brazier, as well as in many other books.

Yogi_Carl

hmmmmm...arguing the PROBLEMS and FLAWS of veganism in an attempt to "switch to veganism"...sounds like a maze of circular logic that leads nowhere.

I respect your point but my opinion is that maze of circular logic can also lead to an informed choice rather than starting with an opinion and then building an argument to justify it. By acknowledging the problems and flaws we can work to remove them.

--

thank you for the references - I will certainly look them up.

Yogi_Carl

For the record:

I did the reading given above.

I watched a You Tube video of chicks being sexed and the males minced alive in their thousands every day in just one plant; and thousands of industrial units across the wold daily.

I watched the brutality of the dairy industries - again, plenty of evidence captured on You Tube.

- and these things were not new to me, they served only to refresh what I had already seen years back and had just pushed to the back of my mind.

Compared to the thousands of deaths that occur incidentally as part of the soil preparation and harvesting of vegan crops across the world - these arable wildlife deaths are a drop in the ocean compared to the global meat industry. Wild animals have a chance to flee for safety - captive livestock cannot escape and are subject to deaths and living conditions - but I knew that.

As of today - I am vegan.

wild_wild_life

As far as the land use question, I think it is an important point that food animals are not being raised on air -- they are eating grain, which could be used much more efficiently if it went straight to feeding people instead of being converted into meat. It takes a lot more calories of grain to make one steak than it does to feed someone the equivalent amount of calories in grain. It may differ across the world, but in the US it's hard to find purely grass-fed meat that is not supplemented with grain. I think in the Western meat industry instances where the animals are making use of otherwise unusable resources and no other resources are rare to non-existent.

As for wild animals being killed in the harvesting of plants, I agree it's a problem but this is obviously happening with the grain used for animal feed too so pretty much anyone who eats anything is party to this. We also kill a million bugs when we drive to work, even if we work at PETA. I don't think it negates trying to do our best.

treehugger215

I see where your concerns are coming from, but think about it this way. (I'll try to explain as best as I can :P)

An animal raised for food has to eat. A total of 60% of grains are used to feed these animals. It takes 13 lbs of grain to make 1lb of meat.

I'm not really a fan of peta, but they lay out the information really well with this campaign they're doing. They might explain it better:
http://features.peta2.com/making-the-connection/world-hunger.aspx

Hope that helps!

vegandave

the reduction in land is fairly well established, and a little bit of research will prove that out. the vast majority of land is not for human consumption, it's for animal consumption, and what's worse, is that because of subsidies, farmers are encouraged to grow single crops like corn (which becomes ethanol) and soy. believe it or not, pigs are now the largest consumers of fish because it's a cheaper way to raise them for bacon.the best thing for you to do (when and if you can) is to buy local from sustainable organic farms (look for a csa), which will minimize the suffering caused by industrial methods, supports your local economy, and encourages you to become re-attuned to the seasons. my point, like so many others, as that there's no such thing as the perfect vegan. donald watson, who coined the term, aid 'we are to try our best'. many die in car accidents. should we speak ill of cars or stop driving? i understand and respect your sensitivity because i was there once too.

the best you can do is focus on yourself and do the best you can with little regard to others. when you become the powerful change that we speak of here, then others will naturally want to follow. in fact, that's my harp on PETA. They have become the antithesis of that. Instead they are a compelling reason not to try vegan, and i'll bet more than half of their members / employees aren't vegan themselves.