God is Imaginary
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Obviously humans have a more evolved mental capacity than other primates but the fact that it is visible in their behaviors as well as ours can show how the basis for morality is rooted in instinct.
I am not insulted by the bald monkey line because while slightly crass (I did steal it from Joe Rogan) it is true that we are hairless primates. How is reaching this point in evolution insulting.
The Nazi party did seize control of Germany and most of Europe and did terrible things. How were they defeated? The majority of the rest of the world got together and put a stop to it. It was regulated by the group. Our current society is a principled society. People are safer now than they have ever been in the history of civilization. Our country is built on the basis of group morality where laws are set by the group in order to maintain an orderly society. So, while I agree that people need laws, these laws do not require divine origin. Also, people are currently learning this type of morality and we are doing fine.
First, yes, we can find things similar to humans in lower animals. Saying that “morality” is simply and nothing more than an increase in quantity of those things is, to my mind, wrong. Humans exhibit new powers, including moral freedom.
I think all humans should insulted by the suggestion that we are “nothing more” than a bald monkey. That ignores the unique capacities and powers we exhibit. We are even categorized as “homo sapiens,” man-the-wise, to identify what sets us apart. I do resist reductionistic thinking, something I see all-too-frequently in atheists.
You have a pretty optimistic view of the state of things. We live in country where 3 million people are currently housed in prisons. The list of social ills, growing crises in education, families, etc., is alarming. We are in debt far over our heads. I don’t want to be a pessimist, I’m certainly not that, but I don’t think it is fair to look at the world from a comfortable chair in the USA (a country of nearly 90% who identify themselves as Christians) and say that this is solely the product of a “group morality.” What about the millions of parents teaching their kids moral principles based on their religious convictions? What about the great evils that exist when good role models and good education are lacking? Show me a nation in the world devoid of religious influence where atheist principles have yielded a “good” society and healthy civilization. The only ones I can think of are communist systems (since they are committed to atheism) and they don’t look very encouraging or supportive of your view. Your view strikes me as incredibly unlikely and misguided.
Look at the world as a whole and in the grand scheme of things. Debt is temporary, the prison situation is a social issue that is currently being debated, education (which one could argue began getting messed up when people kept trying to blur the line between church and state) is a combination of economics and social issues still being debated, families is an economic issue unless you are talking about same sex marriage (which then goes back to church and state).
In the grand scheme of things, we are in a much better place than we have been in the past. Racism is diminishing, society is becoming more tolerant. In other parts of the world, society is improving as secular education improves. Nations with no Christian influence - such as India, Indonesia, Singapore and China - are rising up and an able bodied middle class is forming. Are things perfect? far from it, but this is evolution. It takes a while.
Calling myself a primate is not reductionist but rather fact. A hippo's closest living relatives are whale's and dolphins. Does that subtract from their capabilities.0 -
Would you give your children a "free choice" and then punish them with violence once they make their decision?
My children are given freedom, yes. If they choose to do something wrong, they are punished. If you consider spankings, groundings, and confinement to one's room as violent, then yes.0 -
Your definition of hell is quite a liberal one. Where do you think the whole "burn in eternal damnation" come from? Hell is not simply absence from God in Christian doctrine but rather a real place that is the realm of Satan where sinners are punished. Would you give your children a "free choice" and then punish them with violence once they make their decision?
Do you really believe heaven and hell are places???? Like, actual physical places where we go? Would you not consider separation from God for all of eternity an eternal damnation or punishment once you've come to realize there really is a God? In your mind, are people really walking around beneath the earth covered in flames?????0 -
Your definition of hell is quite a liberal one. Where do you think the whole "burn in eternal damnation" come from? Hell is not simply absence from God in Christian doctrine but rather a real place that is the realm of Satan where sinners are punished. Would you give your children a "free choice" and then punish them with violence once they make their decision?
Do you really believe heaven and hell are places???? Like, actual physical places where we go? Would you not consider separation from God for all of eternity an eternal damnation or punishment once you've come to realize there really is a God? In your mind, are people really walking around beneath the earth covered in flames?????
No, I don't believe in either of them. But the whole burning in eternal flames thing is in Mark. Also, didn't Jesus speak of it in Acts?0 -
Would you give your children a "free choice" and then punish them with violence once they make their decision?
My children are given freedom, yes. If they choose to do something wrong, they are punished. If you consider spankings, groundings, and confinement to one's room as violent, then yes.
Are they punished forever?0 -
Look at the world as a whole and in the grand scheme of things. Debt is temporary, the prison situation is a social issue that is currently being debated, education (which one could argue began getting messed up when people kept trying to blur the line between church and state) is a combination of economics and social issues still being debated, families is an economic issue unless you are talking about same sex marriage (which then goes back to church and state).
In the grand scheme of things, we are in a much better place than we have been in the past. Racism is diminishing, society is becoming more tolerant. In other parts of the world, society is improving as secular education improves. Nations with no Christian influence - such as India, Indonesia, Singapore and China - are rising up and an able bodied middle class is forming. Are things perfect? far from it, but this is evolution. It takes a while.
Calling myself a primate is not reductionist but rather fact. A hippo's closest living relatives are whale's and dolphins. Does that subtract from their capabilities.
Your comments are filled with so many problems that time simply doesn’t allow me to address them all. (I won’t feel bad, though, since most of my past points simply pass by without much or any comment.) Your final line, for instance, about being a “primate” is just dishonest. You said several times that we are “bald monkeys.” In common English, we use “monkey” as a reference to a species under the broader genus of “primate.” In any case, you have to know you were implying a reduction of human beings from a “higher” status when you made our specific difference from monkeys our relative baldness rather than something like “wisdom” or “freedom.”
Your comments about education “began getting messed up when people kept trying to blur the line between church and state” is sheer nonsense. Education flourished within Christianity. The great modern university began in Europe as institutions of the Church. Same sex marriage is not a church/state issue, either. Your notion that the world just keeps getting better in the grand scheme of things might work well as long as you don’t look at specifics. Those who believe in climate change and global warming might beg to differ, not to mention those who compare the erosion of families, rise of psychological and emotional issues, violent crimes, development of weapons of mass destruction, etc., etc. If you use growing “tolerance” as your standard of growth, maybe you are right. Tolerance can turn into a lack of conviction, however, and that makes people lazy and unprincipled, something that seems to making many people in Europe very interested in radical forms of Islam.0 -
Are they punished forever?
They are punished for the amount of time I've told them they'd have as consequences. God has made it pretty clear that heaven and hell is for eternity. We're given this information beforehand. Not sure how it can be so incredibly unfair when we've been told of the consequences.0 -
No, I don't believe in either of them. But the whole burning in eternal flames thing is in Mark. Also, didn't Jesus speak of it in Acts?
Hell is mentioned in the Bible alongside God’s invitation to salvation and happiness. Hell is the radical contrast to what God offers to us. Hell is the end result of those who stubbornly choose a path of despair and hate. It is described as a place of fire, darkness, weeping, etc., because those are terrible things in human experience. Unending despair at the realization that we have rejected God’s love and may never find it again is the greatest loss imaginable. The real point, though, is that now is the time to find salvation and hope.
I don't mean to be rude, but I keep questioning your understanding of the bible and Christianity when you have degrees in religion and philosophy. Surely you have been educated on hyperbole, poetry, parables, stories, etc of the bible. I don't know if you're just playing devil's advocate or if you really don't understand all this.0 -
I don't mean to be rude, but I keep questioning your understanding of the bible and Christianity when you have degrees in religion and philosophy. Surely you have been educated on hyperbole, poetry, parables, stories, etc of the bible. I don't know if you're just playing devil's advocate or if you really don't understand all this.
What he's arguing is exactly what some branches of christianity teach.
Also, 90% of america is not christian. It's more like 76%. 20% of Americans say they have no religion. And yes, this is a link to wikipedia, but i heard the same stats on NPR.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States
Finally, about morals in animals. I would argue that it's kind of a chicken and egg thing, depending on where you're coming from. I believe that instinctual "moral" behaviors for the good of the group were around before our species had the intellectual capacity to reflect on them.0 -
What he's arguing is exactly what some branches of christianity teach.
I'm speaking of theology. I'm looking for a higher level of understanding of theology and would expect that from someone with degrees in both religion and philosophy.
Read that again and it sounds like I think I'm so much smarter. Not my intention. I'm sincerely suprised at some of his comments considering he's educated in religion.0 -
What he's arguing is exactly what some branches of christianity teach.
I'm speaking of theology. I'm looking for a higher level of understanding of theology and would expect that from someone with degrees in both religion and philosophy.
Read that again and it sounds like I think I'm so much smarter. Not my intention. I'm sincerely suprised at some of his comments considering he's educated in religion.
Well then you guys should get your arguments straight because there's a huge difference. The majority of religious people aren't experts on theology, so debating the supposed theological implications of the texts seems less important, to me, than debating how populations interpret religion and act upon their beliefs.0 -
Well then you guys should get your arguments straight because there's a huge difference. The majority of religious people aren't experts on theology, so debating the supposed theological implications of the texts seems less important, to me, than debating how populations interpret religion and act upon their beliefs.
You're not understanding what I'm saying. I would expect a debate between two theologians to be different than one between a theologian and someone who has no education in religion at all.0 -
Suicide is a mortal sin. There is no forgiveness possible. Go to hell, go straight to hell. Do not pass Go, do not collect forgiveness. That's one of the big, huge no-nos in Catholicism. I discussed this with a Cardinal (friend of my grandparents) when I was in 9th grade and a classmate killed himself. He said your sins can only be forgiven if you ask for forgiveness. If you kill yourself you cannot ask forgiveness therefore forgiveness cannot be given. You die with a mortal sin on your soul which is a one way ticket to hell.
That Cardinal was misstating the Catholic Church's teaching on this topic. Or perhaps the teaching has (dare I say) changed. Here's what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says now:2282 . . . . Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.
2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm0 -
Well then you guys should get your arguments straight because there's a huge difference. The majority of religious people aren't experts on theology, so debating the supposed theological implications of the texts seems less important, to me, than debating how populations interpret religion and act upon their beliefs.
You're not understanding what I'm saying. I would expect a debate between two theologians to be different than one between a theologian and someone who has no education in religion at all.
Unless you're both on different pages.0 -
Unless you're both on different pages.
I'm not speaking about differences of opinion here.0 -
Unless you're both on different pages.
I'm not speaking about differences of opinion here.
I'm aware, I'm meant about what exactly you're arguing. Also, I feel like you've been glossing over many of the comments that I've made.0 -
I'm saddened, but not suprised, at the comments of a number of contributors viz Mudrunlvr, M_a_b, Doorki, wineplease etc. I would have hoped that contributors would have taken the time to read what I said and not ascribe views that I did not express. In the interests of accuracy, at no stage did I tell anyone that "they would burn in hell". There is only one with the authority to judge and that is the Lord Jesus Christ.
When I said that I did not intend to engage in pointless debate I meant precisely that. What I meant by pointless was the tendency to debate side issues and pursue red herrings when the crucial questions are ignored. As the Apostle Paul said "we should avoid vain disputations"
For those who think that my faith is simply self interest and desire to avoid eternal punishment, all I can do is to truthfully say that at a point in my life God in mercy and grace showed me how He saw me. "guilty condemed and without excuse" He showed me the extent of His love and mercy in that He gave all that He had in that in the person of His Son the Lord Jesus Christ who became an atonement for my sin. I who was guilty could be considered free because of what He did for me. By confessing my sin and seeking forgiveness from God ,God in mercy forgave me my sin. The righteousness of Christ which was His by right has been imputed to me. No person who genuinely comes to faith in Christ would ever feel superior to those who do not yet believe. A person who is a genuine believer has compassion for those who do not yet believe. In love we simply present the message of the gospel That God does not desire that anyone should perish. God, who is absolutely just and absolutely holy has provided the means wherby anyone can come to Him and have their sins forgiven. There is no merit whatsoever in me. I am continually concious of my unworthyness before God I remain a sinner who has been saved by grace alone. I am fully aware that there are those who will dismiss my input out of hand. In genuine humility I can only say that I speak the truth. I can not make people believe me.
For those who have been particularly vitriolic in their response I would remind them of the valid point raised by Wineplease that they simply demonstrate the love, mercy and forbearance of God that despite their offence aginst God, He still stands offering them mercy, grace and forgiveness. I would respectfully ask any wouldbe responder to remember that all of us, believer and non believer alike will one day stand before God to give an account. God says that "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" We all need to carefully consider how we stand before Almighty God and temper our comments accordingly.0 -
Also, I feel like you've been glossing over many of the comments that I've made.
Not intentionally; I'm so sorry! I thought I may be responding to your comments within the comments I make to doorki. I apologize if it came across as me being dismissive toward you.0 -
Considering the vast majority of people in the world aren't Christian I'd say any god was pretty vague in his telling of consequences. I tell my kids "If you get a bad grade you get grounded." I don't have a stranger knock on the door and tell them that he is there to inform them that I'm going to ground them if they get a bad grade.Are they punished forever?
They are punished for the amount of time I've told them they'd have as consequences. God has made it pretty clear that heaven and hell is for eternity. We're given this information beforehand. Not sure how it can be so incredibly unfair when we've been told of the consequences.0 -
Considering the vast majority of people in the world aren't Christian I'd say any god was pretty vague in his telling of consequences. I tell my kids "If you get a bad grade you get grounded." I don't have a stranger knock on the door and tell them that he is there to inform them that I'm going to ground them if they get a bad grade.
God does not hold those who don't know of Him accountable to the same standards. God deals with everyone based on whether they opened themselves in faith and love to God’s revelation to them. For those who never learned of God’s great love shown through Christ, they will be judged based on their openness to this revelation that never came to them (at least not explicitly). God alone is the judge of a person’s faith and love. Those who never heard of Christ but wanted, deep within, a Savior from God, will find their longings satisfied at their death when they discover clearly what they looked for in this world. The job of Christians in this world is to proclaim the good news of Jesus but not to make a judgment on the eternal destiny of those who never hear.0 -
@robert65fergu
If all of our arguments have been red herrings, then what is a valid debate about god? Whether the communion wafers should be white or wheat?
You didn't need to come out and say "burn in hell." It's clearly implied by your words.0 -
Admittedly I was a bit busy for a few days and didn't read the responses but I didn't see anyone answer my question.I would respectfully ask any wouldbe responder to remember that all of us, believer and non believer alike will one day stand before God to give an account. God says that "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" We all need to carefully consider how we stand before Almighty God and temper our comments accordingly.
If, when you die, you are faced with a God that is NOT the Christian God you think you know, what will you do? Will you admit that you were wrong in life or will you hold tight to a faith in something you know doesn't exist? A lot of Christians like to say that one day we will all face God and will have to atone for our sins and lack of faith. What if that faith is in a false God? Will you fall to your knees before Zeus or the Giant Rat God or whatever it is and denounce Christianity as a false religion?0 -
But how is a stranger knocking at my door to tell me about God's law any different than a stranger knocking at my door to tell my kids about my law? Assuming that I never actually tell my kids my rules myself of course since God certainly doesn't.Considering the vast majority of people in the world aren't Christian I'd say any god was pretty vague in his telling of consequences. I tell my kids "If you get a bad grade you get grounded." I don't have a stranger knock on the door and tell them that he is there to inform them that I'm going to ground them if they get a bad grade.
God does not hold those who don't know of Him accountable to the same standards.0 -
But how is a stranger knocking at my door to tell me about God's law any different than a stranger knocking at my door to tell my kids about my law? Assuming that I never actually tell my kids my rules myself of course since God certainly doesn't.
Not sure I'm following, but I'll try. God has absolutely told us himself through the words of Jesus. Jesus entrusted his apostles to continue to spread his word. They did, and others have been assigned to do the same. The problem being, of course, if you don't believe Jesus is the son of God, you won't believe God actually told us of these consequences.0 -
If, when you die, you are faced with a God that is NOT the Christian God you think you know, what will you do? Will you admit that you were wrong in life or will you hold tight to a faith in something you know doesn't exist? A lot of Christians like to say that one day we will all face God and will have to atone for our sins and lack of faith. What if that faith is in a false God? Will you fall to your knees before Zeus or the Giant Rat God or whatever it is and denounce Christianity as a false religion?
I would like to believe that I will embrace the truth, whatever that turns out to be. If I find out I was wrong, I will discover I was wrong. If I find myself confronted with a God who is worthy of praise, I will praise. If not, I will do otherwise. It is hard to difficult to respond to your question, however. For Christians, our faith in God is somewhat like our faith in a spouse that we deeply love and are committed to. If you ask, “What if you find out that your husband/wife is a phony deceiver,” etc.? Well, I would be profoundly sad and disappointed, perhaps even shattered to the core of my being. The one who loves deeply, though, does not allow this to undermine his/her faith in the one they love. The Christian loves God with a deep confidence that defines our being. Thinking of denying this or finding out it is false does not weaken my faith. In fact, when I read your paragraph, I could only think of how beautiful, compelling and convincing Christianity is in comparison to the religious ideas you presented.0 -
@Brunner26_2
May I respectfully point you to my comment that there is only one with the authority to judge all mankind and that is the Lord Christ Jesus.0 -
@Brunner26_2
May I respectfully point you to my comment that there is only one with the authority to judge all mankind and that is the Lord Christ Jesus.
Yes, but when you invoked Pascal's wager, you were saying we were betting on certain outcomes, right? And they would be....0 -
But how is a stranger knocking at my door to tell me about God's law any different than a stranger knocking at my door to tell my kids about my law? Assuming that I never actually tell my kids my rules myself of course since God certainly doesn't.
Not sure I'm following, but I'll try. God has absolutely told us himself through the words of Jesus. Jesus entrusted his apostles to continue to spread his word. They did, and others have been assigned to do the same. The problem being, of course, if you don't believe Jesus is the son of God, you won't believe God actually told us of these consequences.
This reminds me of the anecdote about the priest and the eskimo:
Eskimo: 'If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?'
Priest: 'No, not if you did not know.'
Eskimo: 'Then why did you tell me?'0 -
@Bahet, To avoid any misunderstanding any comments I have made are based on the authority of Scripture. These are not my comments, whether you consider them implied or not, but they are the word of God. The question you pose is simply a rhetorical one. A person who has genuinely come to faith in Christ is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The work of the Holy Spirit is to confirm, rebuke, teach and guide. The very faith which I express is itself a gift from Almighty God. There is no merit in me alone.The confidence which I express is most certainly not an arrogant one,rather it is a confidence based on the very charcter of God. The sole foundation for the faith of any Christian is that God, who is a covenant God, will do what He has promised. What never ceases to astound me is the lengths to which Almighty God was prepared to go to to reconcile mankind to Himself. God says "I am the Lord God Almighty, that is my name, my glory I share with none other." God therefore clearly states that He is the only true God. Such a statement is clear and unambiguous. It is either true or it is false. We in turn must choose either to believe what God says or to reject what he says. This choice is unavoidable for all of us.0
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God has so clearly told us what to do that ever since Jesus died, the religion he supposed founded has been dividing into countless different factions.0
