The Wizard (God) of Oz (Heaven)

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The concept of the God of Heaven is about the same to me as the Wizard of Oz. The people/witches/munchkins all believed in the Wizard because they had heard so much about him and how great and powerful he was, even though they had never seen him or heard him speak personally. After Dorothy landed, the good witch Belinda appeared, like an angel. She called the munchkins who lived there to come out to greet Dorothy, and after hearing her plight, she sent her to Oz to see the Wizard, or God, via the streets of gold, aka the yellow brick road, with the promise that he could and would help her get back home or "save her" if she just goes to him and asks.

After a long and frightfully, adventurous journey to the Wizards castle, Dorothy, Toto and their new companions were anxious to get what they went there for, a brain, courage, a heart, and to go back home. When they arrived, the castle guard would not let them in until he found out that the witch was after Dorothy. He had told them that they could not see the wizard because "nobody has ever seen the wizard", at which point one of the travelers asked him how then does he knows he exists, stumping the flustered guard. After being primped and polished to meet the great and powerful wizard, the group was taken back to a long corridor that led to his "throne".

They went in together and upon seeing the enormous image of the Wizards face high on a wall, surrounded by flickering flames, and hearing his booming voice, they were terrified. But after coming such a long distance, they were willing to face their fears and tell him what they wanted. When they dared to try to explain their situation, he loudly demanded they bring him the broomstick of the wicked witch first...a nearly impossible feat, fraught with much danger. But they set out on their mission and after nearly dying in the process, they eventually achieved their goal by melting the witch. They returned with the witch's broomstick, but the wizard was still avoiding upholding his end of the deal of granting their wishes in return.

It was the little dog Toto that revealed the wizard was actually just a man by pulling back the curtain he was hiding behind. They saw him pulling levers and pushing buttons to create the images of himself that caused them to experience feelings of awe, fear and trembling. The one thing he as a man, not a wizard, did to help was show them that they had the power within themselves to make their dreams/wishes come true. They didn't need a wizard/God to do it for them. We need each other, family and friends to help us get through at times, like Dorothy and her friends needed each other, and Dorothy also realized that she needed her family in Kansas and they needed her, but that's all. Not a wizard, not a fortune teller, and not a deity.

Yet even though he was found to be a fake, chances are high that if Dorothy, the tin man, the lion and the scarecrow had gone back and told the munchkins what they discovered, they would not believe them and would continue to believe in the Wizard. That's because they had been conditioned to believe and they willingly accepted it on the word of others. They were also comforted in believing that an all powerful being lived in their land who would help anyone who went to see him. So even though they never saw him personally, and never would, and others had testified to the fact that he was not real, they would most likely continue to believe anyway. And so it is with people of faith when science attempts to prove the Bible is not a science book and evolution has a whole lot of evidence to support it while creationism has none.

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  • tequila09
    tequila09 Posts: 764 Member
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    So true! I have a friend who when I stated evolution is a fact they argued with me that it wasnt... Um okay look at dogs, great evolution example right there!!
  • _TastySnoBalls_
    _TastySnoBalls_ Posts: 1,298 Member
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    I hate when classic, good movies are compared to "God." Kind of takes away from the movie and quite plainly, is insulting to the movie. I enjoy movies for what they are, without the God references, even if that was the intention.
  • smbakk
    smbakk Posts: 15
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    I really don't consider comparisons between tales of fake super power hero's insulting at all. Would you find it insulting if I were to find comparisons between Thor, Batman, Harry Potter or Peter Pan and the Wizard of Oz too?

    But I did want to add that just as the Wizard did not grant the wishes of the group through any kind of super powers, but rather they realized they had the ability within themselves to get what they wished for, so it is with God and prayer. It's not God that gives believers what they ask for through fervent prayer, rather they accomplish it themselves through their own efforts.
    But if they ask their God for something and then end up getting whatever it was, even after making it happen themselves, they still give the credit to God. I guess it makes them feel special believing that the creator of the universe is personally involved with their lives.
  • _TastySnoBalls_
    _TastySnoBalls_ Posts: 1,298 Member
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    Insulting in the way, that I just want to enjoy the movie without involving another fake deity. I like to use movies as a means of escape, especially from all the God nonsense.

    And I completely agree with the second part of your response. I see it a lot here on MFP and I can't help but chuckle. "Thank you God, for giving me the strength to lose 150 lbs." Um, how about thanking yourself...and then if they can't do it, they think it's because it's "God's will" WTF does that even mean? lol How about you just try harder.
  • smbakk
    smbakk Posts: 15
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    Oh I understand what you're saying now, yes it's nice to escape all the God nonsense when we're watching television or movies. Religion itself is insulting to our common sense and intelligence because it expects us to accept,, without any evidence, absurd claims that go against science and reality as we know it. I just wish Christians and other people of faith could see the connection so they might understand the way their deities appear to nonbelievers and stop expecting us to "just believe". Most of them think it's a conscious choice we make to not believe in their "God", especially if we once believed then left the faith. But they would be no more likely to believe any other super hero characters are real than we are able to believe theirs is. :)
  • mensasu
    mensasu Posts: 355 Member
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    Many books/movies/religious stories are based on the hero's journey as described by Joseph Campbell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth - they don't have to be thought of as "god" based. Take Lord of the Rings, even Harry Potter where some people argue that the fights between good and evil are religion based but clearly link to the heros journey. MInd you there has been significant agreement that CS Lewis' Lion Witch and Wardrobe is heavily Christian based. For authors raised in a particular religious bias, it is hard to remove those beliefs (as simple as using a quote -cross to bear) from their writings. I try not to read too much religion into a good work of fiction cause for me that would ruin it.
  • ChristiH4000
    ChristiH4000 Posts: 531 Member
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    *New to group* Hi!

    Now I understand why there are groups. Nowhere else on MFP have I seen this kind of civil discussion. Awesome!

    Carry on.
  • BlueJean4114
    BlueJean4114 Posts: 595 Member
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    I really don't consider comparisons between tales of fake super power hero's insulting at all. Would you find it insulting if I were to find comparisons between Thor, Batman, Harry Potter or Peter Pan and the Wizard of Oz too?

    But I did want to add that just as the Wizard did not grant the wishes of the group through any kind of super powers, but rather they realized they had the ability within themselves to get what they wished for, so it is with God and prayer. It's not God that gives believers what they ask for through fervent prayer, rather they accomplish it themselves through their own efforts.
    But if they ask their God for something and then end up getting whatever it was, even after making it happen themselves, they still give the credit to God. I guess it makes them feel special believing that the creator of the universe is personally involved with their lives.



    i LOVE that analogy between Wizard of Oz and god, and all the remarks here, too. And the OP's remarks, too, great thread!!!:drinker:

    I myself, a lifelong "born again" atheist,
    don't always mind gods in movies. I love "It's a Wonderful Life" as a very feel-good movie, even though it involves angels etc, and i do not believe in angels or gods, i still like that movie, and always have. Go figure.

    The movie where Morgan Freeman is a god, i thought was cute.
    but, some movies where the gods are involved as huge part of the moral of the movie, are annoying to me, it depends on how it's done, and all. Not entirely sure why some movies with gods do not bother me,
    and some movies with gods annoy me. But that is how it is with me. PLus, the gods are sooooooooo all over my world, i am slightly desensitized to their presence in things like movies. (but yet, i am Very aware of gods in my govt..lol)


    but yeah, i've gotten several notes from theists on my MFP list, telling me how their prayer has helped them lose weight,
    and since i began posting on several atheist groups on MFP,
    since then,
    NOW some of my MFP pals seem to NOW be mentioning their gods in their remarks, "Wow, i had to work late, so i missed the picnic full of pies and cakes, God works in mysterious ways." (meaning god helped her avoid the pies by causing her to work late).
    and stuff like that. Prior to my posting on atheist threads,
    which shows on my own page,
    no one was mentioning gods as much in their posts.:wink:
  • soldier4242
    soldier4242 Posts: 1,368 Member
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    While I don't think it was Baum's intent I do think that the analogy seems to build rather smoothly. I have always asserted that the only benefit prayer has to offer is the psychological benefit. You could pray for confidence in a job interview and you might think it works but in reality the confidence is always coming from your. You can't pray to regrow a limb or to become bullet proof because your psychological state is irrelevant in those cases.
  • ohenry78
    ohenry78 Posts: 228
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    This is a neat thread. Well done everyone.

    My point-oh-two-dollars:

    Re: God in movies --

    I think that this is interesting when alluesions to God are made in movies. I don't always ENJOY it when they get heavy-handed on the pro-religion side of things, but it's usually interesting. If nothing else, it is fun to consider how Christianity in general would be if this interpretation were expounded on.

    For example, someone mentioned Lord of the Rings. There are definitely major religious themes in this book. Gollum being tempted by the ring (Adam and Eve), Gandalf coming back from his fight with the Balrog (Jesus), Aragorn returning from self-imposed exile to lead mankind against evil (Rapture, I would assume -- debatable, though). But just imagine if Christianity looked a bit literally more like LotR. Jesus didn't randomly die on a cross, but rather came back after defeating a powerful and ancient enemy of mankind. Or if evil was tied to a real object that continued to work its magics through history, rather than the relatively obscure notion of Satan and demons and such.

    Just an interesting thought.

    Also, one of the first things that this thread made me think of is the His Dark Materials series. Anyone else read those books? I loved the whole idea of how Christianity and God are portrayed in this series.
  • halflife1978
    halflife1978 Posts: 47 Member
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    I don't know what the intent of the author is when he wrote it, but I wonder if it has less to do with a representation of the Christian God (or any particular god) than with the idea that the themes covered in the film is yet another example of common literature tropes. So instead of one based on the other, they are going down the same path as the writers of the Bible, of Shakespeare, even the authors of cryptozoological fiction for teens exploring universal themes in literature/film/etc.

    One of those common ideas is about people trying to understand the concept of divinity. That's definitely explored in the Wizard of Oz as well as the other common themes of man vs. nature, sacrifice brings reward, and the importance of family (there's no place like home) which are all also explored in the holy books of the major religions.

    I try to make this distinction because as a society we are very quick to relate themes in popular culture to, specifically, Biblical concepts which purports to lend more credence to those concepts AS biblical instead of an example of a universal theme in all literature which I believe is closer to reality.

    Even the studios are pushing this on movies that I wouldn't have even thought of. Check out the official study guide for the movie Rio (the cartoon with the birds that my daughter can't get enough of)

    http://www.foxconnect.com/media/cmsfiles/faith/rio_guide.pdf

    The headline is that it's a FAMILY FILM WITH A CHRISTIAN MESSAGE. Really? Not an "environmental conservation" message? not an "I get by with a little help from my friends" message? Not an "overcome your fears" message? I caught all of those messages the first time I saw Rio but I had to read the study guide to see that it actually has an officially endorsed Christian message.
  • soldier4242
    soldier4242 Posts: 1,368 Member
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    I don't know what the intent of the author is when he wrote it, but I wonder if it has less to do with a representation of the Christian God (or any particular god) than with the idea that the themes covered in the film is yet another example of common literature tropes. So instead of one based on the other, they are going down the same path as the writers of the Bible, of Shakespeare, even the authors of cryptozoological fiction for teens exploring universal themes in literature/film/etc.

    One of those common ideas is about people trying to understand the concept of divinity. That's definitely explored in the Wizard of Oz as well as the other common themes of man vs. nature, sacrifice brings reward, and the importance of family (there's no place like home) which are all also explored in the holy books of the major religions.

    I try to make this distinction because as a society we are very quick to relate themes in popular culture to, specifically, Biblical concepts which purports to lend more credence to those concepts AS biblical instead of an example of a universal theme in all literature which I believe is closer to reality.

    Even the studios are pushing this on movies that I wouldn't have even thought of. Check out the official study guide for the movie Rio (the cartoon with the birds that my daughter can't get enough of)

    http://www.foxconnect.com/media/cmsfiles/faith/rio_guide.pdf

    The headline is that it's a FAMILY FILM WITH A CHRISTIAN MESSAGE. Really? Not an "environmental conservation" message? not an "I get by with a little help from my friends" message? Not an "overcome your fears" message? I caught all of those messages the first time I saw Rio but I had to read the study guide to see that it actually has an officially endorsed Christian message.

    Rio was a fantastic film. At more than one point I laughed until I cried. If it had a Christian message than so be it. In fact if that is how Christianity was presented more often it might not even bother me so much. At no point in the movie did they ever advocate a lesson that obligated anyone to believe in something in the absence of evidence and that is my big issue with religion.

    I think you have a valid point in saying that Baum was simply taking advantage of a message that is more universal in nature. These common themes spring up in literature quite often even if the authors are in different genres and had no exposure to each others work.

    I am sure at different times in our lives we have yearned to have a trait within ourselves simply because we were unable to recognize that it was already there. When speaking with a friend of mine who has an IQ of 160 I told him that I wished that I were as intelligent as him. I have an IQ of 140 so he puts me to shame in pretty much every area of knowledge. I have always admired intelligence. I think technology is the greatest contribution that humanity can spawn in our world. Through it we have made out world seem smaller. We have brought water to the thirsty and medicine to the sick. I have hopes that we will one day be able to colonize our ocean floor and perhaps even outer space.

    The passion that I feel for this is so strong it keeps me researching. My desire to know seems to replace my lack of natural ability to learn like my friend. He told me recently that no matter why I should accept the fact that I am smart. In that moment I felt like the scarecrow. In my search for a brain I learned that I already had one.