Blah blah blah, words, words, words........ Look, the answer here is so simple it's hardly even worth mentioning. It's the sure fire, 100%, can't miss, way out of your predicament.

Alcohol.

You need to get drunk, and you need to get him drunk. Basically any guy you're slightly attracted to. If you're in a bar, order a drink, and order him one as well. Then order 4 more. Sure, touch his elbow and tell him you like his muscles, whatever. Just keep drinking. I guarantee you'll be all over each other before the place closes and they eventually kick you both out of the women's bathroom stall, locked in embrace.

After you've made out a few times drunk, you can move into the more advanced stage of making out while sober. However, don't rush this. Many married couples have still never made it to this stage, believe me...

So to recap:

1 - Forget everything you've read in this thread, it's a waste of your time. You're just going to be too nervous to follow their advice, anyway.

2 - Drink alcohol, and make sure your target is drinking alcohol, as well. As much as possible, without passing out.

3 - Next stop: make out city. Population: two.

4 - You're welcome.

--P

Unless you are me who when drinking I become more quiet and more reserved and am less likely just to kiss a guy. I am *kitten* backwards I know.

I love Make Out City; population 2!!!!

Before every date (even 2nd or 3rd) I will have a glass of wine or a beer. That's my secret. It loosens me up, I smile a lot more, I usually greet them with a hug. Then they usually but me a drink so I just get happier.
I am both embarrassed and proud to say I kissed Hulk the 1st time. He had said something about me giving him mixed signals and I asked how. We flirted back and forth, I grabbed his shirt, pulled him towards me and changed his life!! Haha We haven't stopped kissing since and now he kisses me.

I'm all for liquid courage but nothing sloppy. Just a little to loosen you up and make you feel sexy.

This is my third attempt at responding to this. The first time brought me to tears, the second time I just confused myself. I'm not very well, so please excuse me if this is less than entirely comprehensible.

a) I know so many people who have regretted (badly in some cases) taking the 'go out and get drunk, and just do it' approach. I could probably write a book. TBH, while a little alcohol can loosen inhibitions, more than that and you can start making some horrible decisions. It's been suggested to me more than once, and I've always lost just a little respect for the suggestor. First kisses especially are supposed to mean something, or at least involve some degree of mutuality, and you aren't going to get that by drunkenly launching yourself at someone who looks good through beer goggles. Just because someone's a little behind the bell curve (and 22 is not so far, really!) shouldn't mean they aren't allowed to have that special memory. It saddens me sometimes that poor-quality 'experience' seems to be prioritised so much over allowing things to develop naturally and well.

b) It can't all be one-sided. If I like someone, I have trained myself to smile. I flirt - gently, I join conversations, I strike them up, I have invited men for coffee/drinks, and at 30, except for on-stage and the odd drinking-game, which as far as I'm concerned don't 'count', I remain unkissed. I have dozens of male friends, some of them very close. After a while, you learn not to expect a reciprocal interest - it's a necessary defence to enable you to shrug it off and try again. Nonetheless, it gets wearying and discouraging. And frustrating. And, it means you tend to assume interest is friendly or polite, and not recognise it for what it is. I speak from experience, and I'll probably kick myself for it for the rest of my life on one particular evening's events, but it's not wrong - it's the product of a world that seems to have gone mad, where everything, but EVERYTHING is about sex, and nothing seems to be about two people discovering their compatibility on many different levels. I'm not asking for marriage or a LTR, but I'm not a blow-up doll, either.

c) I was brought up to be a lady, and to regard boys/men as friends who just might turn into lovers. I'm not going to cheapen myself, and I SHOULDN'T NEED TO!!! What the hell happened to people meeting, liking each other on some level and things evolving from there?! I'm not talking about going back to the 1800's and chaperones and 'courting', but I don't think it's too much to expect a little respect on both sides of the equation. No, I won't be sleeping with you the first night we meet. I won't be wearing something that displays my 'assets' in blatantly provocative fashion, and I won't be rubbing all over you. That doesn't mean I'm non-sexual, or uninterested. That means I value myself for more than just my body's potential to bring us both (or just you, from what I see, hear and read in general) pleasure. That means I respect you enough to try to figure out whether we could enjoy spending time together - I'm not leading you on, and I'm not playing games. Spend a little time letting me get to know you, give me half a chance to trust you, and if we get on, chances are I'll be all over you in a few weeks' time. I may not have the practical experience, but I sure as hell know the theory and I'm dying to try it out with someone I like, and trust not to thoughtlessly destroy my fledgling confidence, but I will not go there with someone I barely know. Surely that's normal? That's sane? That's right? Who's wrong here? Me, or a world that's pushing me to kiss/jump into bed with any old man just so I can be semi 'normal'?!

d) When everyone else seems to cross these hurdles easily and effortlessly, it's very difficult, I'd almost say impossible, not to start to wonder after a while what's wrong with oneself that no-one seems to want to go there with you. It's not exactly conducive to acquiring the sort of confidence needed to go out and pursue it again and again and again. I don't know why no man wants to date me. I can make guesses, based on what friends, and others in forums, say, and I can make efforts to counteract these things, but I can't force others to perceive me as I wish they would.

Oh hell. This has devolved into a tearful rant, and I can't remember where I was going. I can't face deleting it all again and typing something else. I'm tired, unwell, frustrated as hell and will probably re-read this tomorrow and cringe. I'm very sorry if this kills the thread, but some of the things I've read here in the last few days really make me wonder what the @$%&*£"'s gone wrong with the world.

I usually just try to go out of my way to let them know that I like them. Usually by just telling them and it either goes bad or well.. Normally bad.

Friend zone is terrible though because you really want to be friends first with someone and then you are stuck there. So maybe we shouldn't be friends first!

Wow I wish I had started reading this thread earlier! :-D I'm a instant friendzone person. Actually I tend to purposely try to get into the friend zone because to me it's safe. Plus usually I don't know how to interact very well, once we are friends then I can figure out how to go from there. Prior to that, I generally try to find some sort of connection/situation I know like us being coworkers, classmats, volunteering friends, etc. I have a hard time figuring out what to say or how to interact around a stranger. Yeah I'm just that introverted/shy.

Also I'm not naturally flirty at all. To put it better, I don't flirt. And if I were to be totally honest, I'm afraid of flirting with people where it could lead somewhere, because I don't know where that place is. Cause of some things in my past, I use to have a connection to physical affection and being attacked/aggression/targeted - so even though I no longer quite have that corrilation, I still am unsure about "risking" it. I'm hoping I can come to date even with some of my current limitations and anxieties.

Learning to flirt openingly with people I am interested or people I've someone come to know (cause I know I can't quite do strangers yet) is something I'm really tryign to work on. Or at least be outgoing. I can flirt while dancing though and I'm very proud of myself for that! It's mostly due to the style of dancing and the fact I hate grinding so I play a little hard to get on that one. You wanna grind? Gotta show me your dance moves first!

But yeah changing is hard especially when changing things that are more natural (being introverted) or was very engraved into us either through our own experiences or someone elses teachings/expectations.

Wow, I just had time to read this thread beginning to end. There was a lot covered, so I'm not sure where to start. I guess the best place is simply to say that sometimes life throws us curve balls and we've got to do our best to be resilient. After being in a LTR I never, ever in a million years would have thought I'd be single at this point in my life. But here I am. And with it I find myself braver, more confident and dare I say more impulsive than I ever did when I was younger. I guess specifically for Christine & Castadiva, my point is to do what makes you happy and feels right in the moment. At the same time, when you hit a wall where you want something different, then you have to be the one to make that happen because no amount of hoping for the right person to fall from the sky will actually make it happen!! Start small, but stepping out of your comfort zone is really worth it in the end (that is not the same as becoming someone different or being untrue to your morals) to lead you toward the life you want.

Bump so I can read when I have more time (the posts are long and I wanna make sure I get where everyone's coming from)

FWIW, I have been told by several guy friends that part of my problem is a) the intimidation thing (I've got too much of my act together). I think guys who really know me know that I need a man like any other woman, but somehow guys who just meet me don't see that.

Another part of the problem (that I"ve been told by guy friends) is, of course, the insistence on developing a relationshp before getting too physically intimate. This is a great way to get friendzoned while the guys search for someone spicier

And a guy friend told me the other day another part of my problem is that I'm too concerned about appearances (I don't like to make out in public or be seen in certain places/with certain types of people, due to job and ministry concerns) so guys aren't interested in dealing with all that. But I'm cute and fun so they'll put me in the friendzone.

First kisses especially are supposed to mean something, or at least involve some degree of mutuality, and you aren't going to get that by drunkenly launching yourself at someone who looks good through beer goggles. Just because someone's a little behind the bell curve (and 22 is not so far, really!) shouldn't mean they aren't allowed to have that special memory. It saddens me sometimes that poor-quality 'experience' seems to be prioritised so much over allowing things to develop naturally and well.

Firstly, I'm sorry you're upset about this sweety. However, I really, really think that you are building the whole kiss thing up to be more precious than it actually is. I agree that losing your virginity is, and should be, a memorable experience, but kissing? Nope! I was 10 when I first kissed a guy properly. 10 years old? I remember who it was, but I cant even remember if it felt good or not. And so what! I've had faaaaaaaaaaaaaar more memorable experiences since then.

Sorry to dash your romantic heart, but kissing really isnt a big deal!

b) I speak from experience, and I'll probably kick myself for it for the rest of my life on one particular evening's events, but it's not wrong - it's the product of a world that seems to have gone mad, where everything, but EVERYTHING is about sex, and nothing seems to be about two people discovering their compatibility on many different levels. I'm not asking for marriage or a LTR, but I'm not a blow-up doll, either.

yes, you will kick yourself, because once you realise that a kiss is JUST A kiss, you will wonder what all the fuss was about!! A kiss is NOT sex! A kiss is JUST a kiss.

Get over the kiss and then we'll talk about the rest. Again, stop making a kiss so precious! People kiss all the time. You dont have to love the person to kiss them. I mean we are talking about Christine even running away from a kiss on the CHEEK!!! OMG!! I kiss people on the cheek EVERY DAY!! It's a lovely sign of affection, but its NOT a memorable or precious experience. Sex is. Kissing is not!

No, I won't be sleeping with you the first night we meet. I won't be wearing something that displays my 'assets' in blatantly provocative fashion, and I won't be rubbing all over you. That doesn't mean I'm non-sexual, or uninterested. That means I value myself for more than just my body's potential to bring us both (or just you, from what I see, hear and read in general) pleasure. That means I respect you enough to try to figure out whether we could enjoy spending time together - I'm not leading you on, and I'm not playing games. Spend a little time letting me get to know you, give me half a chance to trust you, and if we get on, chances are I'll be all over you in a few weeks' time. I may not have the practical experience, but I sure as hell know the theory and I'm dying to try it out with someone I like, and trust not to thoughtlessly destroy my fledgling confidence, but I will not go there with someone I barely know. Surely that's normal? That's sane? That's right? Who's wrong here? Me, or a world that's pushing me to kiss/jump into bed with any old man just so I can be semi 'normal'?!

Hun, if you want to give kissing this A grade stature in your life, then that's up to you. But I would say that the reason you haven't kissed yet is because you're expecting (far) too much from the whole experience.

Your values are the same as mine, pretty much. But I reserve that kind of criteria for sex. Kissing is not sex! It's not the precursor to sex. And its not the start of a relationship. It's just a kiss! I have no idea why you think kissing is unladylike?? Blimey, even Janie kisses and cuddles her dates and she doesn't want sex till she's married again!!! (sorry for the ref Janie, but relevant at the moment).

(of course it CAN be the start of a relationship, sex etc, but for the purposes of getting your first kiss, it doesnt have to lead to anything.)

d) When everyone else seems to cross these hurdles easily and effortlessly, it's very difficult, I'd almost say impossible, not to start to wonder after a while what's wrong with oneself that no-one seems to want to go there with you. It's not exactly conducive to acquiring the sort of confidence needed to go out and pursue it again and again and again. I don't know why no man wants to date me. I can make guesses, based on what friends, and others in forums, say, and I can make efforts to counteract these things, but I can't force others to perceive me as I wish they would.

The only thing 'wrong' with you is that you've built kissing up into something is isn't. As the years go by its becoming more and more like a precious jewel in your life. Kissing is as sweet and innocent as a 10year old. Stop thinking in terms of sex. Think in terms of childish playtime. No more, no less.

Of course, this is MY take on kissing as I started kissing so young. But really, most people kiss when they are children, so I dont think I'm far off in thinking that it's about as precious as your barbie doll was. You love it at the time, but you grow out of it and move on to bigger and better 'toys'!!!

:flowerforyou:

I ALWAYS end up here! Usually because I'm too chicken to ask a girl out. UGH

OK, firstly, making a mental note to self not to post on subjects that get me upset when running a temperature and fainting intermittently... Not conducive to rational or clear communication:laugh: I did read yesterday's post this morning and cringe, but there are grains of truth in it, and I appreciate your responses, so...

About kissing: I understand that it's not sex. Or comparable to sex. The point I was trying to get across is that I do think kissing (by which I mean mouth-on-mouth, full-blown (romantic/sexual) kissing, NOT kisses on cheeks or little pecks - I'm in the performing arts!! I kiss almost everyone I know hello and goodbye - the only question is two kisses or three:laugh: ) is intimate. I don't generally want to kiss men I have no real interest in. I don't think kissing is unladylike - not at all! - but I don't see any appeal in indiscriminate snogging just for the sake of it, without a certain degree of mutual attraction.

I guess what I'm saying is that I want to kiss someone who wants to kiss me. And perhaps that I view kissing as a possible precursor to other things rather than an end in itself. That doesn't mean waiting a certain number of dates, or anything contrived, but equally, it doesn't mean grabbing the nearest man in a drunken state (BTW, I know alcohol can be a great social lubricant, but there's a big difference between having a few drinks to relax and loosen one's inhibitions/nerves, and being ugly, falling-down-drunk, with no judgement or common sense left!).

Christine is right to say that something that seems very unimportant to the initiated can acquire great significance when that seemingly-common experience is delayed beyond the average time-frame. The lack takes on a symptomatic significance as seeming significant of a greater lack - the "If no-one wants to kiss me, something MUST be wrong with me" line of thought, which is hard to fight off after a while. All the self-confidence in the world is unlikely to last forever in the face of what seems like exclusion from the potential for happiness, and we *are* sold romance/love/sex as indicators/prerequisites of happiness from the time we are tiny children. It's the ultimate in peer-pressure, but it comes from every facet of life, not just our friends/classmates. Logically, we know that there are no guarantees, and not very good odds at that, but it's difficult (impossible?) to reject the insidious messages entirely.

No, I won't be sleeping with you the first night we meet. I won't be wearing something that displays my 'assets' in blatantly provocative fashion, and I won't be rubbing all over you. That doesn't mean I'm non-sexual, or uninterested. That means I value myself for more than just my body's potential to bring us both (or just you, from what I see, hear and read in general) pleasure. That means I respect you enough to try to figure out whether we could enjoy spending time together - I'm not leading you on, and I'm not playing games. Spend a little time letting me get to know you, give me half a chance to trust you, and if we get on, chances are I'll be all over you in a few weeks' time. I may not have the practical experience, but I sure as hell know the theory and I'm dying to try it out with someone I like, and trust not to thoughtlessly destroy my fledgling confidence, but I will not go there with someone I barely know. Surely that's normal? That's sane? That's right? Who's wrong here? Me, or a world that's pushing me to kiss/jump into bed with any old man just so I can be semi 'normal'?!

Now this paragraph really was mostly about sex and moreover, about relationships, despite the red-herring word 'kiss' in the last sentence. Yes, running before I walk, but I am frustrated, and I do think something has gone awry. Janie made the comment that once 'friendzoned' by a man, that's likely to be it - no turning back. Why is that? Speaking in vast generalisations, I think we women have created a situation where we have made it so easy for men to find someone with whom to have immediate sexual satisfaction, that we have removed any incentive for them to work on building a relationship of any sort.

To be clear, I'm not blaming men. If anything, I think this one's on us women. We, quite rightly, demanded sexual equality, but we took it on male terms, rather than creating our own. Reading these boards, most women want intimacy of some degree - emotional, physical, intellectual - with our sexual partners. That takes time to build, and mutual respect. The majority of men seem to be less concerned with this, at least at first - they are "more visual" and less likely to say 'no' when sex is freely offered.

Ironically, in demanding our equality, we have in fact made ourselves less free to demand what we want/need. There are enough women willing to offer their bodies freely, or at least with less reference to their own emotional needs, that it has become unusual to be a woman who does not (or does not at least *appear* to do so), and ever more difficult to attract, and retain, male interest for the length of time necessary to forge the elusive 'connection' we often mention, if one is so inclined. Women may be having more sex, on average, but how often does casual sex without an emotional/intellectual connection really satisfy more than just the physical urge for women? I am not saying that casual sex is wrong, I'm not saying that you *should* be in a relationship to have sex. I'm not actually a prude, in the proper sense of the term, despite all indications to the contrary. I'm saying that I am dubious that women are serving themselves or other women well, by not taking our equality on our own terms. Actually, I'm probably saying that in some ways the 'equality' we think we've achieved is an illusion, and one that serves men far better than it does women

Yes, we make our choices, and yes, the consequences are ours to accept. I can't change the way the world currently works. I can, and have, changed myself, to some extent. However, there are certain things I will not compromise on. I cannot compromise them and remain true to myself, and these are things that I should not *need* to compromise to attract male attention - my self-respect, my physical safety, who I am at the very core of me.

Nonetheless, even when one adapts, there are no guarantees. I think the reason I got so upset by some of this is that I have made changes, and do so many of the things that have been suggested. If I'm interested, I flirt, I smile, I start conversations, and I ask men out for a coffee or drinks. By the way, Christine - all of these can be fun, and quite evidently, need not lead anywhere. Sounds like you've made a start, and 22 is FAR too young to give up, so keep on pushing your boundaries. Try to spend more time with guys in general to acclimate a bit - they're really not like women at all, most of the time. Please don't let my disillusionment put you off trying. You're a different person, in a different location, with different people around you. One of those factors could be the entire difference between success and the opposite.

For me, I've been heavier and slimmer, more and less social, I've gone out in low-cut tops and short skirts, to venues and events I've loved and loathed, and what I've learned is that nothing changes. In short, I have tried to be what I observe is desired, as far as reasonably possible without removing half-a-dozen ribs, my femurs and half my frontal lobe, with no success, and no little personal discomfort. Now, I'm out of ideas, and it seems that all I can do is keep trying to understand, and hoping that somewhere, some when, I will meet a man who values my honour (as a characteristic, not a euphemism for virginity!) as much as his own. Ideally one who's single, straight, interested, and within 10-15 years of my own age. Faint chance, it seems.