Is it right to "out" someone who espouses anti-gay hate?
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SwannySez
Posts: 5,864 Member
Stolen shamelessly from John Aravosis' AmericaBlog - Gay.
http://gay.americablog.com/2012/08/is-it-right-to-out-anti-gay-evangelical.html?m=1
My personal feeling is that when someone is spewing hate while indulging in the exact behavior which they condemn that they should be explosed as the hypocrites that they are.
On the other hand, I am quite against outing for outing's sake.
I know, it's kinda a conundrum, huh?
http://gay.americablog.com/2012/08/is-it-right-to-out-anti-gay-evangelical.html?m=1
My personal feeling is that when someone is spewing hate while indulging in the exact behavior which they condemn that they should be explosed as the hypocrites that they are.
On the other hand, I am quite against outing for outing's sake.
I know, it's kinda a conundrum, huh?
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Stolen shamelessly from John Aravosis' AmericaBlog - Gay.
http://gay.americablog.com/2012/08/is-it-right-to-out-anti-gay-evangelical.html?m=1
My personal feeling is that when someone is spewing hate while indulging in the exact behavior which they condemn that they should be explosed as the hypocrites that they are.
On the other hand, I am quite against outing for outing's sake.
I know, it's kinda a conundrum, huh?
I think that if you are actively trying to bring down a group.. that borderlines ethnicity; when in reality you identify with that group.. its not really a conundrum, its begging to have the truth brought to light.. honesty is the best policy, that is unless you have something to hide..0 -
I don't think I would use the word 'right'.. it's more like having a duty to keep hypocrites honest. I absolutely don't agree with outing anyone who is just there to live their lives BUT for me when you are a public figure actively condemning the very thing you are engaged in it becomes a completely different issue.
I would have no problem 'outing' a civil rights activist who displays racist behavior when they think no one else is watching, or a politician who spouts that they want to protect the environment but then makes back room deals to build pipelines across delicate ecosystems. It's an issue of honesty and transparency. People have a right to know that the figures whom they choose to follow are true to their beliefs, that their actions are not contrary to their 'teachings'.
I would do the same to a non-public figure but normally a big ol' F-U is all that is needed for those guys since they normally don't have the ability to attract support like say an evangelist, or an activist or a politician would, and thus the damage they can do is considerably lessened.0 -
In practice, this seems to have absolutely no impact on anything. The gay-bashers followers keep following, and people in favor of gay rights get to feel smug, and that's about it.0
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they should be explosed as the hypocrites that they are.
Not saying I disagree, but interested in why? Why is it anyone's duty to expose anyone else's hypocrisy? All of us are hypocritical at times, I'd venture, so why does one person have a right or a duty to call another one out for their "transgression"?0 -
It all depends on what your goals are.
Do you want to humiliate the bigot?
Do you want to reduce the bigot's influence on certain people?
Or do you want to convince the bigot not to be a bigot?
What your goal is will determine the course of your actions.0 -
I think the issue is sensitive enough that I don't like making generalizations about it. I tend not to be in favor of outing other people as a general rule, but there may be exceptions. When someone stands up as leader (spiritual, political, whatever) and claims to lead by example, and there's also an implicit assumption that they value honesty, then I don't see a huge problem with outing. If you make your values and your life part of the public landscape, then being outed is fair game in my book.0
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It all depends on what your goals are.
Do you want to humiliate the bigot?
If so, why? Humiliating the bigot is unlikely to produce different behavior.
Do you want to reduce the bigot's influence on certain people?
If so, please explain how you aim to do this. A famous person may have some level of influence, but regular folks have little to no influence on other people, regardless of our own perceived power, in reality, we have almost none.
Or do you want to convince the bigot not to be a bigot?
Again, how do you propose to do this? If someone believes something, it's nearly impossible to change their mind.
What your goal is will determine the course of your actions.
I think a healthy dose of realism is in order. One person is very unlikely to be able to change another person's mind, especially on topics which are divisive and inflammatory. Add to this the fact that many who are bigoted towards gays in particular base their beliefs on their religious mindset, another nearly immovable rock.
So while it may make you feel better to "out" the bigot, it is extremely unlikely to produce the intended effects, if you are truly trying to effect change in someone.0 -
It all depends on what your goals are.
Do you want to humiliate the bigot?
If so, why? Humiliating the bigot is unlikely to produce different behavior.
Do you want to reduce the bigot's influence on certain people?
If so, please explain how you aim to do this. A famous person may have some level of influence, but regular folks have little to no influence on other people, regardless of our own perceived power, in reality, we have almost none.
Or do you want to convince the bigot not to be a bigot?
Again, how do you propose to do this? If someone believes something, it's nearly impossible to change their mind.
What your goal is will determine the course of your actions.
I think a healthy dose of realism is in order. One person is very unlikely to be able to change another person's mind, especially on topics which are divisive and inflammatory. Add to this the fact that many who are bigoted towards gays in particular base their beliefs on their religious mindset, another nearly immovable rock.
So while it may make you feel better to "out" the bigot, it is extremely unlikely to produce the intended effects, if you are truly trying to effect change in someone.
Some people just enjoy humiliating people who have personalities, behaviors, and opinions they don't like, so that could be a goal.
Convincing others not to listen to the bigot might require an assessment of who one thinks is listening. Their personalities will determine whether or not telling them that the bigot is actually a hypocrite will affect their opinion of the bigot.
It is indeed possible to influence others in ways that decrease and even eliminate bigotry, provided you are close enough to someone to have earned their trust or their bigotry is a weakness in an otherwise logical worldview.
We have more influence than we think we do. Maybe not on as many people as a public figure, but on those around us.0 -
Assuming we are talking about people in public positions that are using their power and influence to make the lives of gay people worse, yes. Outing Larry Craig, Ted Haggard, and George Rekers lessened their ability to make the lives of other gay people worse.
If we are talking about friends and acquaintances, no. If I saw someone in a gay bar one night and heard them spewing anti-gay rhetoric the next, I'd talk with them but I wouldn't out them. Not that I've ever been in that situation.0 -
We have more influence than we think we do.
I believe just the opposite. I think our power to affect people around us is massively overestimated in our minds.0 -
Ok, I sometimes forget that y'all are not in my head and I have to actually say ALL of what I mean and not just the Cliffs Notes version because, well, you don't know my thoughts save for what I express.
I should amend my initial statement to add the caveat "if the person is in a position to influence others or broadcast those views to a large audience".
I don't think ya ought to necessarily out anybody just for being a hypocritical bigot. But, that might be appropriate, depending on the circumstances.0 -
We have more influence than we think we do.
I believe just the opposite. I think our power to affect people around us is massively overestimated in our minds.
I'm not sure how I feel about you making that statement and knowing that you're a teacher.0 -
Ok, I sometimes forget that y'all are not in my head . . . .
Oh, but we are, Swanny; we are. Who did you think all those voices were?0 -
We have more influence than we think we do.
I believe just the opposite. I think our power to affect people around us is massively overestimated in our minds.
I'm not sure how I feel about you making that statement and knowing that you're a teacher.
Oh no, don't get me wrong.......I can transform your life by educating you. But I don't think it's very easy or possible for anyone to talk someone else into changing their mind when it comes to beliefs. If you believe something strongly, there won't be much I can do to convince you otherwise.0 -
We have more influence than we think we do.
I believe just the opposite. I think our power to affect people around us is massively overestimated in our minds.
I'm not sure how I feel about you making that statement and knowing that you're a teacher.
Oh no, don't get me wrong.......I can transform your life by educating you. But I don't think it's very easy or possible for anyone to talk someone else into changing their mind when it comes to beliefs. If you believe something strongly, there won't be much I can do to convince you otherwise.
Well not if you go about it bluntly, no
There are types of influence that revolve around spoken discourse that are more subtle but no less effective and significant for it. 0 -
We have more influence than we think we do.
I believe just the opposite. I think our power to affect people around us is massively overestimated in our minds.
That would be so sad, because it would mean only mouthpieces with some level of fame influence our adult mindsets. What a horrible fate we're all in for if that's true.
@SwannySez: Proceed with the outing if that's the case. We really don't need more public figures spreading hate, especially if those really do turn out to be the only people who have influence over us.
Ick. Just the thought makes me want to go have a shower and never turn on a television or radio as long as I live.0 -
they should be explosed as the hypocrites that they are.
Not saying I disagree, but interested in why? Why is it anyone's duty to expose anyone else's hypocrisy? All of us are hypocritical at times, I'd venture, so why does one person have a right or a duty to call another one out for their "transgression"?
The biggest reason is for me...
I HATE liars, hate hate hate..omg you have no idea how much it pisses me off when a public figure lies. I would be immensely happy to have them all hung up buy their toenails. They are given trust.. When someone deliberately damages that trust they should lose everything they have worked so hard for because they no longer deserve it... I am not a forgiving person.When someone stands up as leader (spiritual, political, whatever) and claims to lead by example, and there's also an implicit assumption that they value honesty0 -
Note to self: Don't lie to Koldriana. 0
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they should be explosed as the hypocrites that they are.
Not saying I disagree, but interested in why? Why is it anyone's duty to expose anyone else's hypocrisy? All of us are hypocritical at times, I'd venture, so why does one person have a right or a duty to call another one out for their "transgression"?
The biggest reason is for me...
I HATE liars, hate hate hate..omg you have no idea how much it pisses me off when a public figure lies. I would be immensely happy to have them all hung up buy their toenails. They are given trust.. When someone deliberately damages that trust they should lose everything they have worked so hard for because they no longer deserve it... I am not a forgiving person.When someone stands up as leader (spiritual, political, whatever) and claims to lead by example, and there's also an implicit assumption that they value honesty
The combined shrieks of every single lying politician and religious leader in the US hung up by their toenails would be awe-inspiring, but awfully noisy. I suppose I would consider it a good day and a job well done, though. Not real fond of liars myself.0 -
We have more influence than we think we do.
I believe just the opposite. I think our power to affect people around us is massively overestimated in our minds.
That would be so sad, because it would mean only mouthpieces with some level of fame influence our adult mindsets. What a horrible fate we're all in for if that's true.
Why is that a horrible fate? I don't understand.
I'm just saying that when we imagine that we can talk others into changing their minds about an idea, it's usually futile.
Try talking someone out of their religion.
Try talking someone out of their new-found fad diet.
Try talking someone into exercising/dieting if they dont wanna.
Try convincing a teenager of anything.
We imagine we have all this power and influence, but the reality is, we only have power to choose our own actions and words, and everything else is outside of our control. We can try to influence in subtle or direct ways, but it's my opinion that people choose what they want, and influence from others is minimal.
Sometimes, the relationship we have with a person can grant more influence, a teacher-student relationship is like that, or can be, and when you're married to someone you generally give them more of a listening ear.
But, trying to talk a bigot out of being one, or imagining that if you embarass them you'll change the behavior seems unrealistic to me.
The waitress that gets stiffed doesn't suddenly have a moment of clarity, and say to herself, Wow maybe I should give good service so that won't happen! She just tells herself that last customer is an assho1e.
The reaction of the bigot would be similar.0
