Overt Discrimination in Ohio - Welcome to Elections 2012
LastSixtySix
Posts: 352 Member
The linked article is scary, and I don’t get scared by much. Elections are determined not by the amount of people who agree or disagree with the candidates, but how many of them you can actually get to vote. The fact that Ohio Republican officials are denying the same voting rights to Ohio democrats . . . and that no one can or is stopping them is scary.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/15/opinion/overt-discrimination-in-ohio.html?_r=1&hp
And here we are distracted and worried about the mysterious black box of Diebold voting machines, but it turns out nothing so complex or new-fangled is actually needed to undermine democracy, not when it can be done in plain sight for all the world to see! Who's going to start coming to monitor U.S. elections?
It’s so typical that the party of “family values” finds the answers to modern problems in a lately underused American tradition - voting discrimination. Talk about low tech and just plain low! The Grand Old Party has brought out of the attic and dusted off discriminatory practices for use at a county-by-county level. Welcome to the twenty-first century!
And who says our basic rights are not under attack? Maybe Freedom House should start to rank U.S. states individually, with a sub-category under that by county? I think I’ll go write to them right now.
-Debra
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/15/opinion/overt-discrimination-in-ohio.html?_r=1&hp
And here we are distracted and worried about the mysterious black box of Diebold voting machines, but it turns out nothing so complex or new-fangled is actually needed to undermine democracy, not when it can be done in plain sight for all the world to see! Who's going to start coming to monitor U.S. elections?
It’s so typical that the party of “family values” finds the answers to modern problems in a lately underused American tradition - voting discrimination. Talk about low tech and just plain low! The Grand Old Party has brought out of the attic and dusted off discriminatory practices for use at a county-by-county level. Welcome to the twenty-first century!
And who says our basic rights are not under attack? Maybe Freedom House should start to rank U.S. states individually, with a sub-category under that by county? I think I’ll go write to them right now.
-Debra
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This kind of thing happened in 2000 and 2004 as well, in Florida and Ohio especially. Republican-leaning districts got more voting machines, therefore less wait time to vote. There were voters wrongly purged from voter lists in Florida based on partial name matching and race.
To say nothing of some rather hilarious voting machine glitches where voting for one candidate actually caused you to vote for the other (all these glitches, so far as I recall, were in favor of Republican candidates) Well, they would have been hilarious, if they hadn't involved something as serious as voting should be in this country.
Remember butterfly ballots that caused elderly Democrats to vote for Pat Buchanan?
This country is a joke. One in really poor taste.0 -
And in the 2008 the New Black Panthers intimidated people at polling places with nightsticks and billy clubs on behalf of Obama. They also bussed in loads of uninformed voters who would vote for Obama just based on his skin color, not because they knew a single thing about him...Both parties have disturbing tactics when it comes to votes. Joe Kennedy did it for JFK in 1960..
Cheating happens on both sides, it's not just Republicans and not just the Democrats. Yet as a nation, we continue to vote in and nominate the same kind of cheaters and liars on both sides of the ticket.0 -
I don't even want to hear about this from the Party of A.C.O.R.N. Nobody does election fraud better than Democrats. Get serious.0
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The most important question is - democracy. If America is so proud of her "equality" why not let monitors in to watch her elections? Why not rank states and counties by their voter accessibility? And then publish the results for all to see???
True democracy lets in the light. Besides, it's time we gave our media something productive to report on - shine the light to solve a real problem instead of deliberating over Kardashian's latest affair.
-Debra0 -
The most important question is - democracy. If America is so proud of her "equality" why not let monitors in to watch her elections? Why not rank states and counties by their voter accessibility? And then publish the results for all to see???
True democracy lets in the light. Besides, it's time we gave our media something productive to report on - shine the light to solve a real problem instead of deliberating over Kardashian's latest affair.
-Debra
Amen to this. I don't care what party you are or what party you support, if you're involved in voter repression of any kind, you need to be in jail for a decade or two.
Democrats, Republicans, Socialists, Libertarians, Greens, whoever, that goes for everyone.0 -
The most important question is - democracy. If America is so proud of her "equality" why not let monitors in to watch her elections? Why not rank states and counties by their voter accessibility? And then publish the results for all to see???
True democracy lets in the light. Besides, it's time we gave our media something productive to report on - shine the light to solve a real problem instead of deliberating over Kardashian's latest affair.
-Debra
Amen to this. I don't care what party you are or what party you support, if you're involved in voter repression of any kind, you need to be in jail for a decade or two.
Democrats, Republicans, Socialists, Libertarians, Greens, whoever, that goes for everyone.
If that were the case, all of our recent presidents would be in jail.
Also, quoting Debra,It’s so typical that the party of “family values” finds the answers to modern problems in a lately underused American tradition - voting discrimination. Talk about low tech and just plain low! The Grand Old Party has brought out of the attic and dusted off discriminatory practices for use at a county-by-county level. Welcome to the twenty-first century!
Sounds like it was an attack on a specific party, not raising a question about a real issue.0 -
The most recent incidents, as recounted in the linked piece, happen to show Republicans in the aggressive position - which is hypocritical don't you think given the GOP's 'family values' platform? Don't skirt around this very real, current issue. Which party right now is taking advantage? And who are they taking advantage of? Does that speak anything to their true priorities?
If you have current data about similar Democratic electoral discrimination for this upcoming election, by all means, post!
-Debra0 -
Obama's campaign and the Democratic national committee filed a lawsuit in July to overturn Ohio’s election law restricting “early” in-person voting during the three day run-up to Election Day because they say it is unconstitutional to give service members more time to vote. So I'm confused? Aren't they doing the exact same thing as the Republicans when it comes to areas where they would not do well with votes??
The liberals are playing the exact same game in this. They want the law overturned so the service members who are projected to vote for Romney will not have time to vote and the low-income voters they are project to win can get in to vote in their areas.0 -
Obama's campaign and the Democratic national committee filed a lawsuit in July to overturn Ohio’s election law restricting “early” in-person voting during the three day run-up to Election Day because they say it is unconstitutional to give service members more time to vote. So I'm confused? Aren't they doing the exact same thing as the Republicans when it comes to areas where they would not do well with votes??
The liberals are playing the exact same game in this. They want the law overturned so the service members who are projected to vote for Romney will not have time to vote and the low-income voters they are project to win can get in to vote in their areas.
That's another completely false statement that the talking heads on Fox "News" and idiots who pass along chain emails and Facebook posts keep harping on. The Republicans are the ones trying to supress votes. It used to be that everyone had early voting in OH. The Republicans want to take that away from anyone who isn't military (a generally Republican group). Obama's lawsuit says everyone or no one should get early voting rights. Fox, of course, is spinning it to say that Obama wants to stop the military from voting early without bothering to report the whole story (or even the "fair ad balanced" truth for that matter.)
Edited to add links:
http://factcheck.org/2012/08/obama-not-trying-to-curb-military-early-voting/
http://www.politifact.com/ohio/statements/2012/aug/06/mitt-romney/mitt-romney-says-lawsuit-filed-president-obamas-ca/0 -
Obama's lawsuit says everyone or no one should get early voting rights. ....
Edited to add links:
http://factcheck.org/2012/08/obama-not-trying-to-curb-military-early-voting/
http://www.politifact.com/ohio/statements/2012/aug/06/mitt-romney/mitt-romney-says-lawsuit-filed-president-obamas-ca/
Sounds level-headed and logical, not to mention fair and plain right, to me!
Thanks for the fact-check, Behet!!0 -
Fact checking is awesome!0
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From the article today:Update: On Wednesday afternoon, Jon Husted, the Ohio Secretary of State, announced that all Ohio counties would follow a uniform early-voting policy. The policy would extend early-voting hours to 7 p.m. on weekdays during the last two weeks before the election, though all early voting is banned during the final three days of the campaign.
While the attempt is disgusting, the result is that democracy, for all its faults, usually works out for the best.0 -
And in the 2008 the New Black Panthers intimidated people at polling places with nightsticks and billy clubs on behalf of Obama. They also bussed in loads of uninformed voters who would vote for Obama just based on his skin color, not because they knew a single thing about him...Both parties have disturbing tactics when it comes to votes. Joe Kennedy did it for JFK in 1960..
Cheating happens on both sides, it's not just Republicans and not just the Democrats. Yet as a nation, we continue to vote in and nominate the same kind of cheaters and liars on both sides of the ticket.
The so-called "New Black Panthers" are a bunch of goofs -- there aren't enough of them to intimidate a bingo game, let alone influence an election,
The NBP exists in the public mind only because they know that if they pretend to be Scary Negroes in military uniforms, they'll get media coverage because gullible white people eat that stuff up.
And how does a single incident by two nobodies in a single polling place in a precinct where Obama probably got 90 percent of the vote in a state that Obama won by about 20 points compare to a systematic, government-organized campaign to deprive tens of thousands of citizens of their right to vote?
So, no, in this case both sides DON'T do it. Name one state controlled by the Democratic party where the actual state government is engaging in systematic, selective purges of eligible voters and systematic, selective restrictions on voting--e.g. supplying fewer machines, having different voting hours, refusing to provide provisional ballots, etc, etc. (And doing it in 2012, not 50-60 years ago).0 -
Both parties just suck.
Can we just skip this election, fast forward to 2016 and pick new candidates?0 -
Both parties just suck.
Can we just skip this election, fast forward to 2016 and pick new candidates?
You know, that's how the "generals and officers of this war" on both sides would probably want us to feel. At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is how many one side gets out to vote versus the other side. There are logical and reasoned handles in the American political campaigns to grab onto and survive through all of the emotional hurly-burly. Also, as someone else mentioned, there are more than two parties in this country. If more disenfranshied citizens would not skip out on the election but write-in or vote for a third party, that would send a huge message to the powers-that- WE-LET-BE.
So chin up! Anything worth fighting for is hard, not easy.
AZDEK - you are so right. Obama's lawsuit this year in Ohio says specifically to "let all vote early or none vote early." Yet the Republican controlled government wants to argue with that kind of fairness. Sounds pretty dangerous ot me and I'm glad someone is still fighting for equal voting rights.0 -
I'll take defeat on the Ohio case and admit I didn't look into it as I usually have time to do.
Florida suing to get illegals out of their voting booths. It looks like Florida marks voters off their roll if they don't confirm citizenship. The Obama administration is preventing them from removing the voters (loss of minority votes) and the state has challenged them. I know this is a new policy but last time I checked illegals should not be voting.. Hasn't this come up in a past topic toward the formation of this group?
http://www.lawyerscommittee.org/projects/voting_rights/page?id=0122
I'm cut short on time but there are plenty of past 'claims' against the Democratic party. From paid groups such as ACORN to black poll workers in Philadelphia and Ohio tampering with results to the Obama campaign donating money to people such as Jesse Jackson to not interfere with campaigns...0 -
I'll take defeat on the Ohio case and admit I didn't look into it as I usually have time to do.
Florida suing to get illegals out of their voting booths. It looks like Florida marks voters off their roll if they don't confirm citizenship. The Obama administration is preventing them from removing the voters (loss of minority votes) and the state has challenged them. I know this is a new policy but last time I checked illegals should not be voting.. Hasn't this come up in a past topic toward the formation of this group?
http://www.lawyerscommittee.org/projects/voting_rights/page?id=0122
I'm cut short on time but there are plenty of past 'claims' against the Democratic party. From paid groups such as ACORN to black poll workers in Philadelphia and Ohio tampering with results to the Obama campaign donating money to people such as Jesse Jackson to not interfere with campaigns...
I live in Florida and your synopsis isn't quite right. Florida was purging the voter rolls based on a list from the feds that was grossly inaccurate. So there was a lawsuit that stopped that, but now they're starting again I guess with a revised list.
Not a lot of people in this state like Scott (even Republicans/Conservatives). He's costing us a lot of money in lawsuits and everything he pushes through pretty much is to benefit his own business and net worth. I still can't figure out how he got elected.0 -
Who could have predicted that the biggest Medicare fraudster in history would not be a great governor?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_scott#Columbia.2FHCA_fraud_case_details0 -
Both parties just suck.
Can we just skip this election, fast forward to 2016 and pick new candidates?
They will be from the same two parties though.0 -
Who could have predicted that the biggest Medicare fraudster in history would not be a great governor?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_scott#Columbia.2FHCA_fraud_case_details
Which backs my repeated point that some (not all) uber rich business financiers and bankers have robbed and hurt more people than all the immigrant crimes commited. Hell, average Americans are more afraid of the immigrant walking down their street than of the banker living next door!!! Or, in a store, suspect the immigrant of potential shoplifting but, metaphorically, hand the banker the key to the safe!!!0 -
lol if you think only republicans do this kind of thing. democrats do it just as much. both sides are always trying to get the edge in voting tactics.0
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Yes, but this kind of blatant stuff should not be so easy to do. And saying both do it and basically calling it wash is not necessarily true and does not make it better/right. We should fight against things that tamper with our rights, even when it mostly affects an opposing side. Once the precident is set, it makes it easier to do to everyone.
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Re:ACORN http://www.factcheck.org/2008/10/acorn-accusations/. ( this is from 2008, if I find more recent stuff that contradicts it, I will correct it.)
Neither ACORN nor its employees have been found guilty of, or even charged with, casting fraudulent votes. What a McCain-Palin Web ad calls "voter fraud" is actually voter registration fraud. Several ACORN canvassers have been found guilty of faking registration forms and others are being investigated. But the evidence that has surfaced so far shows they faked forms to get paid for work they didn’t do, not to stuff ballot boxes.
Obama’s path has intersected with ACORN on several occasions – more often than he allowed in the final debate.
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It IS an election tactic to repeat stuff over and over as fact even if it's misleading to hopefully get you to believe it or confuse you enough to not vote. Those who vote party line will do what they've always done, and if the issue energizes more of them to vote, yeah! And hopefully true independents will not show up because they can't be bothered or can't decide. Then the election will be about who can get the most of their base out.0 -
I'll take defeat on the Ohio case and admit I didn't look into it as I usually have time to do.
Florida suing to get illegals out of their voting booths. It looks like Florida marks voters off their roll if they don't confirm citizenship. The Obama administration is preventing them from removing the voters (loss of minority votes) and the state has challenged them. I know this is a new policy but last time I checked illegals should not be voting.. Hasn't this come up in a past topic toward the formation of this group?
http://www.lawyerscommittee.org/projects/voting_rights/page?id=0122
I'm cut short on time but there are plenty of past 'claims' against the Democratic party. From paid groups such as ACORN to black poll workers in Philadelphia and Ohio tampering with results to the Obama campaign donating money to people such as Jesse Jackson to not interfere with campaigns...
I live in Florida and your synopsis isn't quite right. Florida was purging the voter rolls based on a list from the feds that was grossly inaccurate. So there was a lawsuit that stopped that, but now they're starting again I guess with a revised list.
Not a lot of people in this state like Scott (even Republicans/Conservatives). He's costing us a lot of money in lawsuits and everything he pushes through pretty much is to benefit his own business and net worth. I still can't figure out how he got elected.
I'm in Florida also, and this is so true. Scott getting elected is what happens when people vote AGAINST someone instead of FOR someone. Take the time to parse the issues people and don't just run with sound bites and party lines. It is amazing to me how many people vote against their best interests and those of the country as a whole based on personality and party lines. Craziness!0 -
lol if you think only republicans do this kind of thing. democrats do it just as much. both sides are always trying to get the edge in voting tactics.
That blanket comparative trivialization is what political leaders count on in order to perpetuate these abuses.
You are indiscriminately lumping all "tactics" together and giving them the same moral value, which I feel is a very short-sighted approach.
It's not a general discussion of "tactics" or different things that parties do to gain electoral advantage. We are referring to specific campaigns by government officials using the powers of their offices to disenfranchise voters whose preferences they don't like.
And, no, both parties DON'T "do it just as much". Not these types of voter-suppression activities. They are only occurring in supposed "swing" states that are under control of republicans--Pennsylvania, Florida, Ohio, Iowa, Wisconsin, and others.
And it's something that every American should oppose. We should be making it easier for everyone to vote, not harder. Personally, I don't even like the idea that elections are often decided by legitimate "get out the vote" efforts. I want candidates, issues, etc, to stand on their own merits and either be voted up or down on that basis alone.0 -
The most important question is - democracy. If America is so proud of her "equality" why not let monitors in to watch her elections? Why not rank states and counties by their voter accessibility? And then publish the results for all to see???
True democracy lets in the light. Besides, it's time we gave our media something productive to report on - shine the light to solve a real problem instead of deliberating over Kardashian's latest affair.
-Debra
Amen to this. I don't care what party you are or what party you support, if you're involved in voter repression of any kind, you need to be in jail for a decade or two.
Democrats, Republicans, Socialists, Libertarians, Greens, whoever, that goes for everyone.
If that were the case, all of our recent presidents would be in jail.
Also, quoting Debra,It’s so typical that the party of “family values” finds the answers to modern problems in a lately underused American tradition - voting discrimination. Talk about low tech and just plain low! The Grand Old Party has brought out of the attic and dusted off discriminatory practices for use at a county-by-county level. Welcome to the twenty-first century!
Sounds like it was an attack on a specific party, not raising a question about a real issue.
I'll bring the handcuffs, you bring the warrants!0 -
lol if you think only republicans do this kind of thing. democrats do it just as much. both sides are always trying to get the edge in voting tactics.
That blanket comparative trivialization is what political leaders count on in order to perpetuate these abuses.
You are indiscriminately lumping all "tactics" together and giving them the same moral value, which I feel is a very short-sighted approach.
It's not a general discussion of "tactics" or different things that parties do to gain electoral advantage. We are referring to specific campaigns by government officials using the powers of their offices to disenfranchise voters whose preferences they don't like.
And, no, both parties DON'T "do it just as much". Not these types of voter-suppression activities. They are only occurring in supposed "swing" states that are under control of republicans--Pennsylvania, Florida, Ohio, Iowa, Wisconsin, and others.
And it's something that every American should oppose. We should be making it easier for everyone to vote, not harder. Personally, I don't even like the idea that elections are often decided by legitimate "get out the vote" efforts. I want candidates, issues, etc, to stand on their own merits and either be voted up or down on that basis alone.
of course its horrible that this stuff goes on. im just pointing out that its not just republicans. democrats have the same history of trying to suppress/alter votes in swing states.
it amazes me that be able to vote is an issue in this country.0 -
And it's something that every American should oppose. We should be making it easier for everyone to vote, not harder. Personally, I don't even like the idea that elections are often decided by legitimate "get out the vote" efforts. I want candidates, issues, etc, to stand on their own merits and either be voted up or down on that basis alone.
In the days leading up to America's completed Constitution, there was quite the debate if this new country should be a straight democracy (one person, one vote) or a democratic-republic. Thanks to the fear and trembling felt from the terror in France with the bloodiest revolution and the revolutionaries claiming the dead Rousseau for their own (he advocated for one person, one vote which they convenient coopted in the worst fashion), America went with the other kind of democracy. I believe the right decision was made in that regard for its time because, among the moral issues at the time, it was also not feasible logistically to have one person one vote; however, modern technology now makes that point mute. If everyone could vote securely, easily and anon with the push of a button in the comfort of the local library or any other public building, wow. There ought to be a way that can be done and it would sure eliminate a lot of the problems we have today.
Would it create new problems? Of course but not those thought of today like security, etc. How many of you use your computers or smart phones to pay bills or, if you are a merchant, accept payment?0 -
And it's something that every American should oppose. We should be making it easier for everyone to vote, not harder. Personally, I don't even like the idea that elections are often decided by legitimate "get out the vote" efforts. I want candidates, issues, etc, to stand on their own merits and either be voted up or down on that basis alone.
In the days leading up to America's completed Constitution, there was quite the debate if this new country should be a straight democracy (one person, one vote) or a democratic-republic. Thanks to the fear and trembling felt from the terror in France with the bloodiest revolution and the revolutionaries claiming the dead Rousseau for their own (he advocated for one person, one vote which they convenient coopted in the worst fashion), America went with the other kind of democracy. I believe the right decision was made in that regard for its time because, among the moral issues at the time, it was also not feasible logistically to have one person one vote; however, modern technology now makes that point mute. If everyone could vote securely, easily and anon with the push of a button in the comfort of the local library or any other public building, wow. There ought to be a way that can be done and it would sure eliminate a lot of the problems we have today.
Would it create new problems? Of course but not those thought of today like security, etc. How many of you use your computers or smart phones to pay bills or, if you are a merchant, accept payment?
I have been thinking about that lately with all of these stories. A way to set up an online voting system that everyone would have easy access to.
Especially if you could do it instantaneously --- Best Reality Show Ever!!
Better than watching Maury Povich announce the baby daddies.0 -
I don't know any details about the deliberations of the Constitutional Convention on the question of one (free white male) person/one vote. Or the discussion during the ratification process.
But . . . I'd point out: "The Constitution was adopted on September 17, 1787, by the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and ratified by conventions in eleven states. It went into effect on March 4, 1789."
This was all before the beginning of the French Revolution, let alone the Reign of Terror. "The French Revolution began in 1789 with the convocation of the Estates-General in May. The first year of the Revolution saw members of the Third Estate proclaiming the Tennis Court Oath in June, the assault on the Bastille in July, the passage of the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen in August, and an epic march on Versailles that forced the royal court back to Paris in October."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_states_constitution0 -
I don't know any details about the deliberations of the Constitutional Convention on the question of one (free white male) person/one vote. Or the discussion during the ratification process.
But . . . I'd point out: "The Constitution was adopted on September 17, 1787, by the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and ratified by conventions in eleven states. It went into effect on March 4, 1789."
This was all before the beginning of the French Revolution, let alone the Reign of Terror. "The French Revolution began in 1789 with the convocation of the Estates-General in May. The first year of the Revolution saw members of the Third Estate proclaiming the Tennis Court Oath in June, the assault on the Bastille in July, the passage of the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen in August, and an epic march on Versailles that forced the royal court back to Paris in October."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_states_constitution
Technically right, TreeTop, but there were tremors leading up to the actual storm on Bastille and all of that were being felt across the pond. Unrest big time through ideas stirred up by Voltaire and Rousseau (although dead before the French revolution) and new ideas were being thrown about and absorbed by the populace. I remember reading a biography of Abigail Adams when my girls were growing up. Abigail had distict fears for the healthy birth of our new country in light what was starting to happen in France, the fear, and would that carry over negatively to America. I paraphrase, of course!!!
I also remember reading (ages ago) in the Federalist Papers the debates regarding democracy and how it should look in America - deliberative or direct. Didn't mean to imply they happend at the same time. Accurately, as you noted, they were like tipped dominoes in the revolutionary era, one after the other.0
This discussion has been closed.