An objective look at low carb dieting
stroutman81
Posts: 2,474 Member
Here is the crux of things in my opinion. Anyone saying that building a better body and better health is solely about calories is very misguided. Obviously a calorie deficit comprising nothing but gum drops and jujubes isn't going to promote leanness and health as well as a diet comprising lean meats, abundant veggies and fruits, a balance of saturated, mono and polyunsaturated fats, etc.
At the end of the day though, I think you'd be hard pressed to show me sufficient peer-reviewed academic research that shows people losing weight in a calorie surplus or gaining weight in a calorie deficit, assuming we're talking about tissue weight and non-diseased people. But who cares about that since we're not here solely for weight loss. People, knowingly or not, are more interested in health and body composition.
And this latter focus requires calorie control AND nutrient control. One without the other is a pointless proposition. Anyone who's arguing that there aren't nutrient needs that need to be accounted for independently of calorie intake is sorely mistaken.
The people claiming that "all calories aren't the same" aren't grasping the specifics. A calorie is a calorie is a calorie... just as a meter is a meter. A calorie is merely a unit of measurement. You're confusing nutrients with calories... they aren't interchangeable. Nutrients provide our bodies energy that, for the time being, we quantify with an outdated metric known as the atwater system and calories. Yes, nutrients are not created equal in the "body's eye" which should be obvious to anyone. But that's not the same as saying, "all calories are not equal."
When you delve into the research pertaining to nutrient manipulation, if there are any clear trends, it's that there is no One Way that's right for everyone. People who espouse high carb diets to everyone are misguided just as people who espouse low carb diets to everyone are misguided. Individually tailoring a diet to the individual in question is a must if lasting change is going to be realized.
We have data out there supporting the idea that low carbohydrate approaches are better for some while higher carbohydrate approaches are better for others, further exemplifying why any blanket recommendations are sort of silly. Anyone who works with a wide array of folks in the fat loss setting can vouch that a myriad of diets work depending on the person and the situation. I can say this... in my experience, lower carb approaches tend to work best for my obese clients and by and large, moderate carb approaches tend to work best for my leaner clients. This most likely has something to do with insulin resistance/sensitivity issues which has already been mentioned in this thread.
When we get really lean, a that moderate carb approach tends to best be delivered within a cyclic approach. Put differently, I'll install punctuated periods of high carb intake at specific times of the week. Other periods of time will be on the lowish end of things.
And if you're truly trying to show that there is some sort of metabolic advantage for anyone eating low carb, you need to wait for sufficient research to be conducted comparing low vs. moderate or high carb approaches THAT MATCH protein and calories. The research simply isn't there yet though. James Krieger, an author and published researcher whom I highly respect and communicate with, put it perfectly when he said:
1. The proposed metabolic advantage (MA) for low carb diets is a hypothesis, not a fact
2. There is inadequate data to support the MA hypothesis
3. There is inadequate data to reject the MA hypothesis
4. The MA hypothesis does not trump the concept of energy balance. It postulates inefficiencies in energy metabolism, which would translate to an increase in measured energy expenditure (due to heat loss) in a living organism. Thus, if the MA was true, "calories out" would increase for a given "calories in".
5. A definitive study examining 24-hour energy expenditure (using room calorimetry), comparing a ketogenic diet to a traditional diet (with matched protein intake) for subjects in an energy deficit, has not been performed. This is the only study that will adequately test the MA hypothesis in humans
6. Weight loss still requires an energy deficit. If a MA exists, it still cannot make up for an energy surplus or energy balance. To assert otherwise is to assert that energy can be created or destroyed out of thin air, or that human tissue can be created in the absence of any energy input.
Mind you, his published paper on MA actually supports the MA hypothesis.
And what about insulin? Yea, it's true that having elevated insulin levels blocks fat oxidation and lipolysis on a meal by meal basis. But what happens if, say, you eat one huge meal and spike insulin to the moon, store fat, shut off lipolysis, etc. and then don't eat again for the rest of the day?
If that one meal was only 1,000 calories and you need 2,500 a day to cover your total daily energy expenditure, why exactly is the body just going to hang on to those calories when it needs them to survive?
And this doesn't even begin to factor in things like rate of digestion... eating even a high-carb diet does not necessarily imply chronically elevated insulin. And low carb zealots tend to look at things in a vacuum... insulin promotes fat storage, carbs spike insulin, therefore carbs make us fat. They leave out, as already mentioned, the myriad factors that also play a role in fat metabolism such as acylation stimulation protein, catecholamines, HSL, etc.
As I noted above, in the game of weight loss it is about thermodynamics before anything else. In the game of body composition and health, it's much more complex however.
For anyone interested in learning more about insulin and its relation to lipogenesis, I can't recommend Jame Krieger's series on it which you can find here:
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319
That's part 1 and you can continue on to the other parts from it.
Hopefully this post helps clear up some of the mysticism.
At the end of the day though, I think you'd be hard pressed to show me sufficient peer-reviewed academic research that shows people losing weight in a calorie surplus or gaining weight in a calorie deficit, assuming we're talking about tissue weight and non-diseased people. But who cares about that since we're not here solely for weight loss. People, knowingly or not, are more interested in health and body composition.
And this latter focus requires calorie control AND nutrient control. One without the other is a pointless proposition. Anyone who's arguing that there aren't nutrient needs that need to be accounted for independently of calorie intake is sorely mistaken.
The people claiming that "all calories aren't the same" aren't grasping the specifics. A calorie is a calorie is a calorie... just as a meter is a meter. A calorie is merely a unit of measurement. You're confusing nutrients with calories... they aren't interchangeable. Nutrients provide our bodies energy that, for the time being, we quantify with an outdated metric known as the atwater system and calories. Yes, nutrients are not created equal in the "body's eye" which should be obvious to anyone. But that's not the same as saying, "all calories are not equal."
When you delve into the research pertaining to nutrient manipulation, if there are any clear trends, it's that there is no One Way that's right for everyone. People who espouse high carb diets to everyone are misguided just as people who espouse low carb diets to everyone are misguided. Individually tailoring a diet to the individual in question is a must if lasting change is going to be realized.
We have data out there supporting the idea that low carbohydrate approaches are better for some while higher carbohydrate approaches are better for others, further exemplifying why any blanket recommendations are sort of silly. Anyone who works with a wide array of folks in the fat loss setting can vouch that a myriad of diets work depending on the person and the situation. I can say this... in my experience, lower carb approaches tend to work best for my obese clients and by and large, moderate carb approaches tend to work best for my leaner clients. This most likely has something to do with insulin resistance/sensitivity issues which has already been mentioned in this thread.
When we get really lean, a that moderate carb approach tends to best be delivered within a cyclic approach. Put differently, I'll install punctuated periods of high carb intake at specific times of the week. Other periods of time will be on the lowish end of things.
And if you're truly trying to show that there is some sort of metabolic advantage for anyone eating low carb, you need to wait for sufficient research to be conducted comparing low vs. moderate or high carb approaches THAT MATCH protein and calories. The research simply isn't there yet though. James Krieger, an author and published researcher whom I highly respect and communicate with, put it perfectly when he said:
1. The proposed metabolic advantage (MA) for low carb diets is a hypothesis, not a fact
2. There is inadequate data to support the MA hypothesis
3. There is inadequate data to reject the MA hypothesis
4. The MA hypothesis does not trump the concept of energy balance. It postulates inefficiencies in energy metabolism, which would translate to an increase in measured energy expenditure (due to heat loss) in a living organism. Thus, if the MA was true, "calories out" would increase for a given "calories in".
5. A definitive study examining 24-hour energy expenditure (using room calorimetry), comparing a ketogenic diet to a traditional diet (with matched protein intake) for subjects in an energy deficit, has not been performed. This is the only study that will adequately test the MA hypothesis in humans
6. Weight loss still requires an energy deficit. If a MA exists, it still cannot make up for an energy surplus or energy balance. To assert otherwise is to assert that energy can be created or destroyed out of thin air, or that human tissue can be created in the absence of any energy input.
Mind you, his published paper on MA actually supports the MA hypothesis.
And what about insulin? Yea, it's true that having elevated insulin levels blocks fat oxidation and lipolysis on a meal by meal basis. But what happens if, say, you eat one huge meal and spike insulin to the moon, store fat, shut off lipolysis, etc. and then don't eat again for the rest of the day?
If that one meal was only 1,000 calories and you need 2,500 a day to cover your total daily energy expenditure, why exactly is the body just going to hang on to those calories when it needs them to survive?
And this doesn't even begin to factor in things like rate of digestion... eating even a high-carb diet does not necessarily imply chronically elevated insulin. And low carb zealots tend to look at things in a vacuum... insulin promotes fat storage, carbs spike insulin, therefore carbs make us fat. They leave out, as already mentioned, the myriad factors that also play a role in fat metabolism such as acylation stimulation protein, catecholamines, HSL, etc.
As I noted above, in the game of weight loss it is about thermodynamics before anything else. In the game of body composition and health, it's much more complex however.
For anyone interested in learning more about insulin and its relation to lipogenesis, I can't recommend Jame Krieger's series on it which you can find here:
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319
That's part 1 and you can continue on to the other parts from it.
Hopefully this post helps clear up some of the mysticism.
0
Replies
-
Awesome post!!0
-
Great post, thank you.0
-
Thank you for the thoughtful, well balanced post.
I ran across a couple of studies that made me a little concerned about the potential long term health effects of a low carb diet (diet in the sense of way of eating, not necessarily for weight loss). Scarily, the "low carb" group in these studies aren't even all that low (<120g/day was the lowest category, from what I can tell). In these studies, lower carb intake was associated with increased incidence of heart disease and total mortality:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22735105
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17391111
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17136037
Additionally, when it comes to weight loss, there may be some question as to whether it is the low carb or the high protein component of the diet that is effective:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22935440
I can only access the abstract of this last study so it's harder to interpret, but interesting.0 -
Thank you for the thoughtful, well balanced post.
I ran across a couple of studies that made me a little concerned about the potential long term health effects of a low carb diet (diet in the sense of way of eating, not necessarily for weight loss). Scarily, the "low carb" group in these studies aren't even all that low (<120g/day was the lowest category, from what I can tell). In these studies, lower carb intake was associated with increased incidence of heart disease and total mortality:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22735105
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17391111
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17136037
Additionally, when it comes to weight loss, there may be some question as to whether it is the low carb or the high protein component of the diet that is effective:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22935440
I can only access the abstract of this last study so it's harder to interpret, but interesting.
The health effect studies are interesting... but correlational. When it comes to that stuff, it's hard to pinpoint the caustative variable. Still interesting.
And with regards to your latter point, you said "maybe be some question...." In fact, there's DEFINITELY a lot of question based on the available research to date. Like I said in my post... we need studies that are matching calories and protein. They've not been produced yet though.0 -
In my case, I'm not really sure if it's ok but I am doing low carb and has lost 6 pounds so far. I am doing a well balanced diet with all kind of vegetables, lean protein and green smoothies. Including fruits. I guess it depends on the body type...? I have noticed I am very sensitive to carbs including whole wheat pasta and brown rice. So, I just decided to cut that down and I see progress.0
-
Right... that's sort of my point. There's no definitive approach that's best for fat loss. If you feel best on a lower carb approach, more power to you. Especially if you're feeling as if it's something you'll be able to continue for the long term.0
-
Same here! At heart, I am a carb addict! Low carb really helped kick start my weight loss. Sometimes I felt a little weak from the lower carbs so I had to add more, but overall it has helped me tremendously. Also trying some higher carb days here and there has been working for me when I plateau and seems to help reset things I guess you could say.0
-
When all else fails... namely in leaner folks... I'll resort to a targeted ketogenic diet. Namely it's a low carb diet with structured refeeds interspersed strategically throughout the week.0
-
Thanks for the tip! I try to keep my carbs to earlier in the day when i do have them, but this might be something to try since the closer I get to my goal, the harder it is to see progress.0
-
Thanks for the tip! I try to keep my carbs to earlier in the day when i do have them, but this might be something to try since the closer I get to my goal, the harder it is to see progress.
When do you train with weights?0 -
Since I have kids, I will usually work out in the evenings around 8:30 pm or so, after my youngest goes to bed. I weight train heavy 2-3 times per week and also do cardio 4-5 times a week(whether it be running, insanity video, etc). One evening is a circuit trainng class once a week at 7pm.Typically i take the weekends off from working out. All usually late in the day.0
-
Yeah, if what you're doing now wasn't netting you the results you're after, I'd actually switch to a low carb diet on your 'off' days from strength training. On your training days, I'd load up on carbs, placing the vast majority of them in the PM hours.0
-
Thanks! I will definitely give it a try! Progress has been at a very slow pace for the past 2 months or so. I am lucky enough to have been able to keep things fairly simple for my 20lbs lost so far, but I think I am at a point where a change is needed to see greater results. Currently I am 5'4 and 120lbs. I would like to lose a few more lbs. Some may think that is crazy but given that I am a pear shape, I still have some fat left(not a lot, but some). Building more muscle is always a plus in my book too.0
-
Just a quick question, what level of carbs is considered "low carb", vs "high carb"?0
-
Just a quick question, what level of carbs is considered "low carb", vs "high carb"?
There's no formal definition really. Even in the research, low carb means different things depending on the researcher.
Ketosis tends to start happening when you go below 100 grams of carbs per day. So that's probably a good starting point, not that ketosis need to be an end-goal in and of itself.0 -
Great post Steve.
I recently subbed to Krieger's site and I'm very much enjoying it. The piece you linked on insulin is fantastic and I spam that thing pretty readily0 -
Great post Steve.
I recently subbed to Krieger's site and I'm very much enjoying it. The piece you linked on insulin is fantastic and I spam that thing pretty readily
Yeah, James is the man. Definitely one of the good guys.0 -
Great post! I am a total carb addict/emo eater. Living on a low to moderate carb intake WITH moderate exercise (that is heavy on muscle building), protein and tons of water works for me. I have experimented every which way to sunday on trying to lose fat and my body just loves this combination. I honestly feel that it is how your body is built and no one body is the same. Since I grew up in a very very very southern household heavy on carbs for meals, I find that the minute I turn off the switch from whatever i want to eat down to limited carbs, the pounds fall. Sometimes a pound or more per day. By the same token, I know girls in the office who live off of their fat free diets, pasta and do really well. It really is about what works for your body.
Keep these coming! I love reading your posts0 -
Yup, it's all about finding what works for you. It's important to say that even if carbs don't "work" for someone, they can still lose weight on a moderate/high carb diet as long as calories are aligned accordingly. However, they're not likely to stick with it given their sensitivities to carbs.
Thanks for your feedback.0 -
I am not sure this is totally relevant but I found these posts concerning women, low carb eating, and hormones. If you have the time (because I am sure you have a LOT on your plate) do you mind to give an opinion? * I know they are not actual studies *
(http://www.paleoforwomen.com/carbohydrates-for-fertility-and-health/; http://www.stumptuous.com/rant-65-october-2012-pray-for-mojo)0 -
I am not sure this is totally relevant but I found these posts concerning women, low carb eating, and hormones. If you have the time (because I am sure you have a LOT on your plate) do you mind to give an opinion? * I know they are not actual studies *
(http://www.paleoforwomen.com/carbohydrates-for-fertility-and-health/; http://www.stumptuous.com/rant-65-october-2012-pray-for-mojo)
I only read the second one first. I used to read some of her stuff and enjoyed it. She knew her stuff back when I read her... which was years ago. This was a hard piece for me to get through. Seems like she's more interested in entertaining than she is educating. Granted, that might work for some people, so who am I to judge.
But what's important for you is that I can definitely agree with the one meaningful statement she made in this article:
"Go and get your sex hormones tested. While you’re at it, test thyroid and adrenal function too."
If you're feeling off of you're not losing weight (and not lying to yourself about eating correctly when you're f-ing now which is something many folks are akin to doing)... then this is very solid advice.0