Women be Women and Men be Men
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I believe in traditional gender roles to an extent, but I'm much more of a believer in chemistry and happiness and that almost everything is very relationship specific. Nobody can honestly tell me that two people can't be happy unless they embrace traditional gender roles. I do find femininity a bit of a turn on but when done in excess it gets really annoying.
I will never understand the concepts of the man ordering for the woman or opening car doors for them. That would be like going on a date with a handicapped mute. I'm perfectly capable of making decisions, but why would I want to date someone who can't think for themselves or even open doors. Some people ay say it's chivalry. First of all, it's the 21st century, that word doesn't really mean anything anymore. Second of all, I like to help people with things that they struggle with or can't do by themselves, opening car doors is not one of those things. Why don't I come over to your house and brush your teeth for you while I'm at it?
So the fact that she says things like "you’re going to end up with a son not a husband" is a bit hypocritical. I want to end up with a wife, not a daughter.0 -
Here is a situation hopefully that is food for thought.
You are a lady and your date has just driven the both of you to dinner.
He parks,gets out and comes to the car door to open it for you and closes it behind.
You both walk to the door and he quickly reaches out and opens it for you to slip inside.
It happens that there is a lone guy also following and your date glances back at him and proceeds to enter behind you letting the door to shut behind him.
Of these events what truly indicates the quality of his character and manners?0 -
Letting the door shut on someone is just plain rude (assuming they are right behind and that the person wouldn't have to stand holding the door open for a solid minute for the person to get there).
Where I think you see character with this sort of thing is the person who rushes to hold the door open for someone (male or female!) struggling with a bunch of bags or boxes, or a stroller. That shows consideration for another person and trying to make their life a little easier in some small way. That's how I was raised and I will hold the door open for little old ladies and men or overwhelmed young mothers. There is no gender role there - just being decent if you are able-bodied and someone needs help.
I really object to the idea that having a different view on these gender roles and behaviors that Patti woman is espousing would make me be behaving more masculine.0 -
Yes, there's a difference between being a strong woman and being "butch"!And one thing I’m beginning to observe (from talking with others, reading online opinions, and even this board) is that your “typical” alpha male is looking for a less controlling girly girl and your “typical” alpha female is left complaining that she can’t find a good man because she’s not interested in the “typical” beta man who is often attracted to a stronger female personality.
I really believe that any so called "alpha male" who can't handle an assertive woman is not really an alpha male. He's a poseur male, with his overly sensitive ego bruised just because he's with a confident woman.
Of course, there's a big difference between a woman who is confident, intelligent, and assertive, and a woman who is manly in demeanor. Who doesn't dress like a woman. Who doesn't walk like a woman. Etc., etc. But confident and feminine are not mutually exclusive.
--P0 -
Letting the door shut on someone is just plain rude (assuming they are right behind and that the person wouldn't have to stand holding the door open for a solid minute for the person to get there).
Where I think you see character with this sort of thing is the person who rushes to hold the door open for someone (male or female!) struggling with a bunch of bags or boxes, or a stroller. That shows consideration for another person and trying to make their life a little easier in some small way. That's how I was raised and I will hold the door open for little old ladies and men or overwhelmed young mothers. There is no gender role there - just being decent if you are able-bodied and someone needs help.
I really object to the idea that having a different view on these gender roles and behaviors that Patti woman is espousing would make me be behaving more masculine.
Exactly and my point.
One shows the person and the other how well he may know the script.
Why I say beware being swayed by feelings attached to things that in no way reveal the persons true character.0 -
I do love me some Patti Stanger. I think some of the stuff she says is way out in left field - like this - but all in all she is spot on.
I'm the girl that wake up Sunday morning, make breakfast for my guy, be all girly and domestic but then can go into Buffalo Wild Wings on Sunday afternoon, drink beer, curse at a football game, eat wings, then leave and go home and make a 3 course meal for my guy wearing only an apron...LOL. I'm not saying that this has won me any prizes in the dating world but I do believe that women should be women at least 85% of the time. There is nothing wrong with dressing up once in a while, keeping yourself put together and looking good. But I'm also horribly independent and stubborn and have a hard time accepting help. So, there's my 15% of non-girly being.
Now. Boys. This goes both ways. I want to be treated like a lady. I don't want to be treated like a child, your mother, or your therapist. If my oil needs changed, I want you to change it for me. If there's a spider and you are with me in my place, you better not squeal like a girl, kill the darn thing. I don't date much so when I do have a guy in my life I expect him to do man things.
I know I'm gonna get tons of slack for this but I'm a tough cookie, start the tomato throwing ladies!
I so agree with this 100% Could not have said it better. I am not the one to be girly and frilly. I play in the dirt, I do not get my nails done, I may wear makeup on occasion, but please I implore of you, do not order my food for me, instead allow me to go first, that to me is gentlemanly. Open doors for me, but if I get there first, I will open it for you. I can hang with the boys, cook you a mean dinner, and romp with you like it is an Olympic sport.0 -
Wow. Really?? I hope you’re just trying to stir up discussion :flowerforyou: I get doors opened for me all the time. Almost always to go in a building (even by guys I’m not dating) and about half of the time to go into the car (dating or not). If I take too long getting my stuff together/putting my lipstick/etc and don’t beat him to it, one particular guy actually opens the car door for me to get out as well. Life is too short for me to be offended by this.I will never understand the concepts of the man ordering for the woman or opening car doors for them. That would be like going on a date with a handicapped mute.
How on earth does telling the guy what I want to order so that he orders for the table mean I can’t think? A man doesn’t order for me often, but when it has, it’s always been a natural extension of the preceding “what are you getting? I don’t know, what are you getting” discussion that happens at dinner. Not some sort of “I’m the big man and you’re the little woman” thing that many of these posts seem to portray.I'm perfectly capable of making decisions, but why would I want to date someone who can't think for themselves or even open doors.
How on earth does letting someone get the door for me signal that I can’t make decisions or think? It doesn’t say that I’m weak. It doesn’t mean I can’t lift or carry, or think. I am stronger than many men (intellectually and physically) and this doesn’t offend or demean me in any way. In fact, I honestly think it makes men feel more at ease that as accomplished as I am they can still be “the man” with me.
I’ve only watched a handful of episodes so I’m no expert on her show… but the women on there who get this advice to back off, let the man take the lead and stop being so controlling are the ones who, when you watch them, are scaring off all the decent guys by coming on too strong. These women ARE the ones who come on Patti’s show complaining that they only end up with men who turn into “sons” they have to do everything for. So I think she’s on to something here.0 -
Why I say beware being swayed by feelings attached to things that in no way reveal the persons true character.
You're making this hypothetical argument... BUT ... I've never seen someone hold the door for me and let it fall on another's face, even if the person behind us was a guy.
If I were to see something like that, then I would assume that the man holding my door wasn’t truly a gentleman, but just trying to act like one because it’s so effective at seducing women.0 -
Ok I have a couple of opinions on this one.
1.. I have had a man order for me. He phrased it very diplomatically and was very polite about. Usually however whenever I go out everyone orders for themselves. Even my kids order for themselves when we go out lol.
2.. Women be women--- I get soooo tired of hearing this phrase. I was a tomboy all through high school. I wear make up to go out I cook amazing meals and I (on occasion) wear heels when I dress nice. However I free the spiders from my house. Can shoot better than most guys I know, collect weapons and mown my own yard. I also love football and action movies. IT has never hurt my dating life lol. Though I dont wear heels right now cause MR. Nice Guy is my height. I also cuss like a salior and have no problem giving you my opinion lol... But then I mostly date rockers, metal heads, or Nerdy/Geeky guys and they like that stuff. I guess it depends on what kind of guy you want to attract.
The one I always hear that kills me is "you should let the guy win and not be competitive it turns him off"-- I'm super competitive and if that intimidates you oh well lol0 -
[I really believe that any so called "alpha male" who can't handle an assertive woman is not really an alpha male. He's a poseur male, with his overly sensitive ego bruised just because he's with a confident woman.
Of course, there's a big difference between a woman who is confident, intelligent, and assertive, and a woman who is manly in demeanor. Who doesn't dress like a woman. Who doesn't walk like a woman. Etc., etc. But confident and feminine are not mutually exclusive.
--P
I knew I liked you. YES. YES. YES.0 -
Oh, I hold doors to buildings for people all the time, everyone does, it's the polite thing to do. Car doors are different, I just don''t see the point. They're not heavy, generally not dirty, I've never had someone thank me and tell me they really appreciated it. I don't think I've ever seen anyone get offended by it. It's not really that big of a deal, I'll still do it if someone wants me to, I just don't see the point.
Wow. Really?? I hope you’re just trying to stir up discussion :flowerforyou: I get doors opened for me all the time. Almost always to go in a building (even by guys I’m not dating) and about half of the time to go into the car (dating or not). If I take too long getting my stuff together/putting my lipstick/etc and don’t beat him to it, one particular guy actually opens the car door for me to get out as well. Life is too short for me to be offended by this.I will never understand the concepts of the man ordering for the woman or opening car doors for them. That would be like going on a date with a handicapped mute.
How on earth does telling the guy what I want to order so that he orders for the table mean I can’t think? A man doesn’t order for me often, but when it has, it’s always been a natural extension of the preceding “what are you getting? I don’t know, what are you getting” discussion that happens at dinner. Not some sort of “I’m the big man and you’re the little woman” thing that many of these posts seem to portray.I'm perfectly capable of making decisions, but why would I want to date someone who can't think for themselves or even open doors.
How on earth does letting someone get the door for me signal that I can’t make decisions or think? It doesn’t say that I’m weak. It doesn’t mean I can’t lift or carry, or think. I am stronger than many men (intellectually and physically) and this doesn’t offend or demean me in any way. In fact, I honestly think it makes men feel more at ease that as accomplished as I am they can still be “the man” with me.
I’ve only watched a handful of episodes so I’m no expert on her show… but the women on there who get this advice to back off, let the man take the lead and stop being so controlling are the ones who, when you watch them, are scaring off all the decent guys by coming on too strong. These women ARE the ones who come on Patti’s show complaining that they only end up with men who turn into “sons” they have to do everything for. So I think she’s on to something here.
I have no problem with someone telling me what they want and having me order for them. Still not something I typically do, but that wasn't what I meant. I was referring to if I had to choose and order for her. That's just weird. I've dated girls that had very few opinions and it wasn't much fun.
It would make sense that she's giving this type of advice to a particular type of women, but I've never seen the show I'm just putting in my two cents.0 -
I'm traditional in certain things. I do like being feminine and the "weaker vessel" in my relationships. I'm very independent and a tough cookie though.
With that said, that's crazy talk! So if I order my own dinner, according to her, I'm a shrew??? Pshshsh.
I'm currently reading Mars and Venus on a Date. He insists that the woman stay receptive while the guy stay pursuant- always. I don't know. It's worth expirementing!0 -
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Actually, I kinda agree with Patti. I don’t think she’s saying a woman who orders for herself will treat a man bad, but a woman who insists on “I’m grown, I don’t NEED you do to for me” after the man says he will order for the table is probably the kind of woman who wants to exert more control and masculinity than your typical alpha male wants to accept. I see it all the time amongst my female military peers. “Shrew” might be too strong a word, but definitely masculine energy and very controlling.for someone to say that a woman who wishes to place her own order isn't someone one should be dating is extraordinary. To say that wishing to do so indicates that she's a "shrew who will take over your life" is even more jaw-droppingly out of date - is this a show from the early 1900's
Ok, I was in a rush this morning, so I didnt read it as him ordering her food AFTER asking her. I read it as him selecting what she should eat and then ordering it!! :noway:
It's cool for the guy to order. I dont mind that. Also, I dont mind ordering for both of us!! TBH its not really something I would consider to be chivalrous, rather, just what's easiest for the waiting staff! It's not like I'm going to be in any danger by opening my gob!!
Kinda mad/exaggerated/irrational that Patti can turn such a simple mannerism into a be all and end all of gender roles in a relationship tho!!!! :huh: Who really gives a flying **** who does the ordering?? :laugh:
Can’t tell if you’re really interested or just making a joke… but I know some people are interested so here’s the update on that: My skin scars badly, so I still have this huge brown patch on my chin. He’s… interesting… it’s been 3 months of getting to know each other and he’s still around (and clean shaven) so that’s a good sign ;-). My friends laugh at me, because they say I’m sooo good at calling the game with men in my friends’ lives but am totally clueless about my own (they think he actually likes me for the long haul and I’m not sure).
Good Grief Janie!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why would I make a joke out of your misery?????? Sorry if it was out of context in this thread, but as you posted it, I just thought about you and the scar and edited to ask. I know you've never met me, and you may disagree with my somewhat liberal views on here, and may not even relate to my humour, but I really am a genuine and sincere person!!!
I'm sorry you're scarred. I was afraid of that. As I said in my response at the time, my skin scars badly too so I do empathise :flowerforyou:
As for the guy, 3 months IS a good time to still be going strong. I kind of subconsciously consider the 3 months as the 'honeymoon' period and then things usually start to get serious. Are you serious about him?? Or is it still early days for you?0 -
[I really believe that any so called "alpha male" who can't handle an assertive woman is not really an alpha male. He's a poseur male, with his overly sensitive ego bruised just because he's with a confident woman.
Of course, there's a big difference between a woman who is confident, intelligent, and assertive, and a woman who is manly in demeanor. Who doesn't dress like a woman. Who doesn't walk like a woman. Etc., etc. But confident and feminine are not mutually exclusive.
--P
I knew I liked you. YES. YES. YES.
Yep! And a fourth YES!! :bigsmile:
I'm assertive, and quietly confident, but no-one could call me manly!!! Thats hilarious!! :laugh:0 -
. I can kill a bug if need be.
DM - that just made me laugh OUT LOUD!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
My hero!!!! :bigsmile:0 -
Am watching Millionaire Matchmaker and was surprised to hear this convo between Patti, Hatch (the guy she sent to chivalry camp), and the chivalry camp instructor.<Patti and the chivalry camp lady are telling him he needs to open doors, order for the woman>
What if she insists on ordering her own food?
You ask her what she wants because you’re going to order for the table.
But what if she insists she’s grown and can do it herself.
Then that’s not a woman you should be dating
<Patti to the camera>
It is so important for women to be women and men to be men and to keep those roles in tact. It’s worked for millions of years, and the reason is the minute you switch into masculine mode as a feminine woman and you decide you’re going to end up with a son not a husband.
Back to the session:
If that’s my girlfriend for 6 months and she wants to order my food for me what’s wrong with letting her do that?
If you don’t mind being with a shrew who’s going to take over your life –
We’re talking about dinner!
Those are clues. You have to be picking up on everything a woman does.
….
Do you want to get married or just date?
Wow.. that's soooo not in line w/today's culture. What do you think?
PS: As I typed, another part of the show, one of the girls says she likes a guy with confidence because a guy who isn't confident ends up taking his insecurities out on you. What do you think about THAT??
It is definitely out of step with today's woman. Most women confuse being contrite and demure with weakness cause they have built up a defense to the dearth of real men out hear and constantly dealing with horny lil boys posing as real men. I have been in that exact situation and I had to kick the chick to the curb. I always pick the restaurant, open the door, order for her and pay.0 -
. I can kill a bug if need be.
DM - that just made me laugh OUT LOUD!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
My hero!!!! :bigsmile:
LOL .. I know! It made me laugh out loud too!0 -
Here is a situation hopefully that is food for thought.
You are a lady and your date has just driven the both of you to dinner.
He parks,gets out and comes to the car door to open it for you and closes it behind.
You both walk to the door and he quickly reaches out and opens it for you to slip inside.
It happens that there is a lone guy also following and your date glances back at him and proceeds to enter behind you letting the door to shut behind him.
Of these events what truly indicates the quality of his character and manners?
Unacceptable. He should be polite to me and others as well.0 -
I think you're right about this hypothetical argument. I've never seen a man hold the door for his date/wife, etc. and let it slam on another person's face.Why I say beware being swayed by feelings attached to things that in no way reveal the persons true character.
You're making this hypothetical argument... BUT ... I've never seen someone hold the door for me and let it fall on another's face, even if the person behind us was a guy.
If I were to see something like that, then I would assume that the man holding my door wasn’t truly a gentleman, but just trying to act like one because it’s so effective at seducing women.
I think a better observation of his manners is how polite he is to the wait staff or other people whose affections he isn't trying to win. (And the reverse for a woman too. Good manners count!)0 -
Well... it did kinda follow a comment about mass castration.... and considering that this guy *is* the type to pay my way, open doors and (occasionally) order for me, seemed more like an appropriately sarcastic joke.Good Grief Janie!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why would I make a joke out of your misery??????
I'll post more about him later. My friends the other night were trying to get me to either commit to him or stop seeing him. He's started hanging out with my singles group and they think he will be hurt by my casual attitude. He actually seems to have a lot more in common with one of my friends from the group (she’s really cute and doesn’t realize a couple of the other guys like her...admittedly, this plays into my own insecurities that none of them have ever liked me romantically and once he hangs around too much he won’t either), so I'm just having fun and will see how this plays out.As for the guy, 3 months IS a good time to still be going strong. I kind of subconsciously consider the 3 months as the 'honeymoon' period and then things usually start to get serious. Are you serious about him?? Or is it still early days for you?0
