Gay rights=Illiberal??
joselo2
Posts: 461
I don't know, I just have to say, gay rights movement is seeming to be getting a little illiberal. It is now that if anyone holds a political or religious view, that doesn't take the on message gay rights view, even if they don't harm gay people in their behaviour or actions, they must be shouted at shamed, and not even entitled to express or even hold these views. People saying anthing that could even be construed as slightly anti gay means that person deserves the worst possibleno matter what they meant. And anyone who deosn't agree is a bigot. Gay rights don't want to engage or educate or listen to different views, it just wants to call everyone a bigot. It thinks that being offended give you the moral hight ground, makes you right and prevents any dissent. Gay rights thinks it is elite, more intelligent and superior to some sort of scum who going to have an off message view. Gay rights movement is so illiberal nowadays, almost shames me to be gay, lest I get assocaite witht that!!!
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...what.0
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Example like< I heard about this chicken shop situation in the USA, like the owner is not allowed to hold a personal opinion. Like in the UK, Nick Clegg dismisses everyone who is against gay marriage as a bigot, without even a care. your view on gay marriage is the new way of showing you are intelligent and 'liberal' and a new way of dismissing the masses. I always thought it the lowest form of argument when someone just callsyou names and insults instead of engaging with your view. Now these people who take it to the court of human rights because their employers are obliged to treat a THOUGHT indirectly against gay people as more important than a right to free expression of religion in actual practice.Oh my God, people in the world still get killed for being gay but in the UK and USA people don't even care, they only care that someone, somewhere, might have a view that the are going to be very sensitive about. I know not all gay people are like that but the ones who shout loudest right now are these ones.
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Wait..... so... you think its wrong for people to say that someone is a bigot if they have a personal view that homosexuality is morally wrong and donates money to causes that fight against equal rights for homosexuals?
I mean....
...what?
Like, that is the very definition of bigotry.
From Wikipedia:
Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot, defined by Merriam-Webster as "a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance".
It is ALSO bad that people get killed for being gay. Are you saying that those of us who choose not to eat at Chik-fil-a don't care about that because we ALSO care about other gay rights related issues? That's like saying we shouldn't make theft illegal until we solve the problem of murder. You can do both.0 -
Example like< I heard about this chicken shop situation in the USA, like the owner is not allowed to hold a personal opinion. Like in the UK, Nick Clegg dismisses everyone who is against gay marriage as a bigot, without even a care. your view on gay marriage is the new way of showing you are intelligent and 'liberal' and a new way of dismissing the masses. I always thought it the lowest form of argument when someone just callsyou names and insults instead of engaging with your view. Now these people who take it to the court of human rights because their employers are obliged to treat a THOUGHT indirectly against gay people as more important than a right to free expression of religion in actual practice.Oh my God, people in the world still get killed for being gay but in the UK and USA people don't even care, they only care that someone, somewhere, might have a view that the are going to be very sensitive about. I know not all gay people are like that but the ones who shout loudest right now are these ones.
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I'll assume you're just ill-informed. There are many thousands and thousands of people in the US who think gay people should be held in camps and executed by the government. Some of them even the tell the media all about it.
With regard to the "chicken shop" there's a difference between having an opinion and donating corporate money to conversion therapy centers.
I'm always a little entertained that people assume that getting called out for their crap is an indictment on their freedom of expression. Apparently they can say whatever they want, but I'm not allowed to confront them for it. If you really want to go 12 rounds on the First Amendment we can do that, but I'd suggest packing more than what you've got right now.
There's a difference between making an ad hominem attack and calling someone out for what they are. There is no rational reason to be "against" same-sex marriage, or homosexuality, that doesn't involve some kind of bigotry. Ergo, they are bigots.
As to being loud goes, there's a saying form the 80s. Perhaps you're familiar with it: Silence Equals Death.0 -
I am a bit concerned here...wanting equality is not elitist in the slightest. What is elitist is not wanting to yield any privilege to others. And minimising how someone feels if they feel attacked or unsafe is at least as bad as the original attack because it further silences victims.
People who claim an alleged right to hate or actively oppose minority groups are, by definition, bigots. And by arguing that it is a right to freedom of speech in the face of pro equality sentiment is analogous to reverse racism claims, which are, inherently, racist. My caveat is that I'm Canadian and hate speech is not protected under the constitution...and I know a difference exists in the US.
You absolutely do not need to avail yourself of the rights afforded to you by your light predecessors, but please do not minimise their incredible efforts, nor my and others' efforts to further our existing rights.0 -
Oh my God, people in the world still get killed for being gay but in the UK and USA people don't even care, they only care that someone, somewhere, might have a view that the are going to be very sensitive about.
Many people I know have been attacked for being openly gay, sometimes beaten within an inch of their lives, and one person I knew was killed. Lots of us know someone who died or was attacked. I'm not sure where you got the impression that these things don't happen anymore in the US, but it is an incorrect impression.
Anyway.
It is a part of American culture that when someone says or does something socially unacceptable in public, and they are a business owner, it is the right of the consumer to say "I'm not going to buy stuff from that guy anymore after what he said/did". A person can be entitled to their opinion, and legally free to express that opinion in public, but they are not entitled to force people to keep buying their product afterwards. In fact, you can never force anyone to buy your product. You can just entice them with the best product, or the product that suits them, or the product that is not quite the best or even good but it's really cheap. And at any point, the consumer can ditch your product for absolutely any reason, including them thinking that the person who profits from the purchase of the product is a little $#|+. That's capitalism, baby!
OP, your basic complaint seems to be that "anyone who calls anyone a bigot, is a bigot". I suggest you watch several episodes of the television show PeeWee's Playhouse so that you can contextualize the cultural background of the argumentative strategy, "I'm rubber and you're glue".0 -
To the OP: This group is a safe haven and supportive group for LGBT+ and any friends within the MFP community. Posts like yours is one of the reasons this group exists.
You may want to look at joining a group like "Debatable Debating" if you want to attempt having such conversations.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/forums/show/133-debatable-debating
It appears this group is not for you.
This thread will be locked and may be deleted.0
This discussion has been closed.