Ketogenic Diet.....thoughts from this group.
crash1967
Posts: 31
Hello and thanks for creating a group that cuts through so much confusion. I know its been asked and discussed in the general.forums but i am wondering what the folks here think about the ketogenic diet.
It makes a ton of sense to me, partially because am a practitioner of ancestral technologies and know that for most of the time the human gut has been evolving our ancestors bodies primarily ran on fats and proteins with very little in the wag of carbs. Living very close to aboriginal populations and working intimately with natives i can see how the high carb modern diet has created an epidemic in obesity and diabetes in this population that until not even 150 years ago existed on primarily fats and proteins.
Having actually lived in the mountains for years and existing on what we could find or gather from the forests i know my body craved fats and meats like crazy and note i was never healthier than i was during that time. We sucked down marrow and even brain and spinal tissue like it was ice cream. We would render down deer and bear fat and use it to cook everything, sometimes having it coat the insides of our mouths. We lived in shelters we made, during the long montana winters, and the fats were instant heat and fuel for our bodies.
But that was years ago and i no longer live that way but have become somewhat less feral. I have been using the keto diet for about a month now but I think i have been WAY undershooting my calories at around 1500 but some kind folks pointed out some very helpful threads today and i think i am on a better track. I have lost about 10 pounds without noticeable strength loss so far but stalled out the last couple of weeks probably because my caloric intake has been too low.
I want to do this right and I want to not hurt myself doing it and I am open and willing to try suggestions but most importantly I want to find something that works and to stick to it and I have been confused about a lot. i just want to keep it stupid and steady.
I am 45, male, have bmr of 1789 and perform light activity. I havent gotten a workout regime down as there has been confusion on ky part about this. I do work with dumbbells 3-4 times per week and have been keeping aerobics down to 1-2 times a week at 20 minute sessions at about 6mph. My body fat composition is 23% according to the military calculation. I want to get down to about 165 and cut, say 10% body fat.
I have adjusted my caloric intake to 1800 calories with about 150gm from protiene, 140gm fat, and 25gm carbs at this point.
I am not at all attached to this keto diet.....i just want to reach my goals efficiently.
Glad i found this site and this group! I am excited for this journey!
It makes a ton of sense to me, partially because am a practitioner of ancestral technologies and know that for most of the time the human gut has been evolving our ancestors bodies primarily ran on fats and proteins with very little in the wag of carbs. Living very close to aboriginal populations and working intimately with natives i can see how the high carb modern diet has created an epidemic in obesity and diabetes in this population that until not even 150 years ago existed on primarily fats and proteins.
Having actually lived in the mountains for years and existing on what we could find or gather from the forests i know my body craved fats and meats like crazy and note i was never healthier than i was during that time. We sucked down marrow and even brain and spinal tissue like it was ice cream. We would render down deer and bear fat and use it to cook everything, sometimes having it coat the insides of our mouths. We lived in shelters we made, during the long montana winters, and the fats were instant heat and fuel for our bodies.
But that was years ago and i no longer live that way but have become somewhat less feral. I have been using the keto diet for about a month now but I think i have been WAY undershooting my calories at around 1500 but some kind folks pointed out some very helpful threads today and i think i am on a better track. I have lost about 10 pounds without noticeable strength loss so far but stalled out the last couple of weeks probably because my caloric intake has been too low.
I want to do this right and I want to not hurt myself doing it and I am open and willing to try suggestions but most importantly I want to find something that works and to stick to it and I have been confused about a lot. i just want to keep it stupid and steady.
I am 45, male, have bmr of 1789 and perform light activity. I havent gotten a workout regime down as there has been confusion on ky part about this. I do work with dumbbells 3-4 times per week and have been keeping aerobics down to 1-2 times a week at 20 minute sessions at about 6mph. My body fat composition is 23% according to the military calculation. I want to get down to about 165 and cut, say 10% body fat.
I have adjusted my caloric intake to 1800 calories with about 150gm from protiene, 140gm fat, and 25gm carbs at this point.
I am not at all attached to this keto diet.....i just want to reach my goals efficiently.
Glad i found this site and this group! I am excited for this journey!
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Replies
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My opinion is that there is no long term benefit of doing a low carb or keto diet from a weight loss perspective and it is often detrimental to gym performance as well as adherence. However, you will get people who swear by it.
As you note, it is very challenging to get your calories in.
From a lifting perspective, I would suggest a good lifting routine with progressive loading.
Do you have access to a gym?
If, so, Stonglifts 5 x5 and Starting Strength are solid programs.0 -
I have a ymca membership so yes on the gym. I will need to google those workouts.0
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My only concern is that you are eating under BMR. . .0
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I have a ymca membership so yes on the gym. I will need to google those workouts.
The stronglifts description can be found here:
http://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5-beginner-strength-training-program/
There is also a group on here of people who do the program:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/groups/home/5542-stronglifts-5x5
Starting Strength can be downloaded as an ebook.The website with some more information is here: http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/about
I would also suggest that you look at possibly setting your calories and macros using the following link. However, the macros generally assume a low/moderate through high carb diet:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/819055-setting-your-calorie-and-macro-targets0 -
While it's not Keto, I did the Anabolic Diet for a little over a year. While I had great progress, but I got tired of restricting a certain group of foods.0
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Crash - I agree with Sara on the doubts of long term value but as you can see by the board their are those that swear by it.
Looking at your post can you share your logic for eating at BMR? That is a very large calorie deficit even if you were 100% sedentary.0 -
But that was years ago and i no longer live that way but have become somewhat less feral. I have been using the keto diet for about a month now but I think i have been WAY undershooting my calories at around 1500 but some kind folks pointed out some very helpful threads today and i think i am on a better track. I have lost about 10 pounds without noticeable strength loss so far but stalled out the last couple of weeks probably because my caloric intake has been too low.
I want to do this right and I want to not hurt myself doing it and I am open and willing to try suggestions but most importantly I want to find something that works and to stick to it and I have been confused about a lot. i just want to keep it stupid and steady.
I am not at all attached to this keto diet.....i just want to reach my goals efficiently.
The 10lbs was likely water/glycogen losses with a little fat. As far as keto diet for your goals, there isn't any advantage in terms of weight loss for keto diets holding cals and protein constant. Generally speaking less restrictive diets are easier to adhere to, so you may want to look into something less restrictive0 -
Gah! I thought i had this bmr thing right but apparently not!?! Glad i am asking questions.
Ok....so using this link http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/654536-in-place-of-a-road-map-2-0-revised-7-2-12. I came out with 2460 as my tdee. Now after rereading everything am i finally getting it that i need to eat around 2460 to just maintain right? So what is too much of a deficit from there, if i have it right?0 -
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The 10lbs was likely water/glycogen losses with a little fat. As far as keto diet for your goals, there isn't any advantage in terms of weight loss for keto diets holding cals and protein constant. Generally speaking less restrictive diets are easier to adhere to, so you may want to look into something less restrictive
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Ok.....cool....like i said, not attached to this as a diet although i dont mind it. What do you suggest as macros? This line of questioning brings me to the iifym concept; as long as i keep within the caloric needs it doesnt matter so much what those macros are correct?
Thanks for all the patience with this newbie! I have a ton to learn....0 -
With the amount you have to lose I would set your deficit at about 500 a day (equates to approximately 1lb a week).
Set your protein at about 1g per lb of LBM and fats at 0.35g per lb of total body weight - these should be considered as minimums. The rest can fall where you want based on personal preference and gym performance. If you go to the link I provided above it will walk you through how to set these in MFP. Give it a few weeks and if you are losing too little or too much tweak the calories up or down accordingly.0 -
Ok. Complete redo- 145g protein, 65g fat, 190g carbs on 1900 cal a day seems to be coming out to 1# loss per week. Does that sound about right?
It sure will be a cheaper diet! If that sounds good i will keep that in a holding pattern for a few weeks and reasses.
Please feel free to kill this thread if its annoying or unhelpful to others.
Thanks again for the input.0 -
Crash, sounds like you've had interesting life experiences. It sounds like it depends very much on which group you lived with, in which part of the world. I have also lived with indigenous/traditional groups and still do at times (travel to Africa, Latin America etc). My experience is actually what made me think keto and paleo were a joke. In the communities I've lived in they eat a massive amounts of starches. I was raised in the Amazon jungle, and we lived completely off of yucca (a starch), potatoes and fresh-caught fish. In many parts of the world traditional groups cultivate rice. In Western Africa (I have a house there) everyone grows yams at home. Etc. Starches and carbs grow naturally in many places without having to farm them. So when diet gurus say "our ancestors lived like this" and they generalize all parts of the world as eating the same, it really bothers me.0
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Once people became agrarian then yes, carbs became a staple. You would have been hard pressed to find much carbs in montana. There arent that many root plants here to utilize. I think that when people talk about gut evolution you really have to take into account how long hominids have been around vs how long we have been agrarian and not hunter/gatheres. I mean at the longest, and i am being ultra generouse here, 20k years, vs 1 million (at least) years of evolution is a big difference.0
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Once people became agrarian then yes, carbs became a staple. You would have been hard pressed to find much carbs in montana. There arent that many root plants here to utilize. I think that when people talk about gut evolution you really have to take into account how long hominids have been around vs how long we have been agrarian and not hunter/gatheres. I mean at the longest, and i am being ultra generouse here, 20k years, vs 1 million (at least) years of evolution is a big difference.
I understand, that's why I wrote that various carbs grow naturally in many parts of the world. People did not have to be farmers to find corn, yams, potatoes, rice or oats growing. Which carb they found depended on which part of the world they were in.0 -
Once people became agrarian then yes, carbs became a staple. You would have been hard pressed to find much carbs in montana. There arent that many root plants here to utilize. I think that when people talk about gut evolution you really have to take into account how long hominids have been around vs how long we have been agrarian and not hunter/gatheres. I mean at the longest, and i am being ultra generouse here, 20k years, vs 1 million (at least) years of evolution is a big difference.
I understand, that's why I wrote that various carbs grow naturally in many parts of the world. People did not have to be farmers to find corn, yams, potatoes, rice or oats growing. Which carb they found depended on which part of the world they were in.
I think there are good points raised regarding defining what a 'paleo' diet comprises and it spans such a broad time period and differed in different locales.
However, I would just like to point out that paleo as a diet is done for very different reasons than a keto diet and in fact, while it is often low carb it is not intended to be a 'keto diet'.
Paleo is generally intended, to those that believe it, to improve health markers by restricting certain foods, namely the ones that derive from 'human intervention'
Keto is intended to make you more efficient at partitioning - i.e. you are supposed to become more efficient at burning fat. This point however is arguable as to the effectiveness.
They are two very different things.0 -
Ok. Complete redo- 145g protein, 65g fat, 190g carbs on 1900 cal a day seems to be coming out to 1# loss per week. Does that sound about right?
It sure will be a cheaper diet! If that sounds good i will keep that in a holding pattern for a few weeks and reasses.
Please feel free to kill this thread if its annoying or unhelpful to others.
Thanks again for the input.
Your numbers sound reasonable. Also, I would not be concerned about adding a few hundred calories a day when you start strength training more regularly as this would increase your TDEE. Also, remember that the protein and fat macros are minimums and that carbs is the variable. Unless you have a medical issue that would indicate otherwise, it is fine to go over both of them.
Once additional suggestion however is that you should look to bring your carbs up slowly rather than going straight from 25g to 190g.0 -
Once people became agrarian then yes, carbs became a staple. You would have been hard pressed to find much carbs in montana. There arent that many root plants here to utilize. I think that when people talk about gut evolution you really have to take into account how long hominids have been around vs how long we have been agrarian and not hunter/gatheres. I mean at the longest, and i am being ultra generouse here, 20k years, vs 1 million (at least) years of evolution is a big difference.
I understand, that's why I wrote that various carbs grow naturally in many parts of the world. People did not have to be farmers to find corn, yams, potatoes, rice or oats growing. Which carb they found depended on which part of the world they were in.
I think there are good points raised regarding defining what a 'paleo' diet comprises and it spans such a broad time period and differed in different locales.
However, I would just like to point out that paleo as a diet is done for very different reasons than a keto diet and in fact, while it is often low carb it is not intended to be a 'keto diet'.
Paleo is generally intended, to those that believe it, to improve health markers by restricting certain foods, namely the ones that derive from 'human intervention'
Keto is intended to make you more efficient at partitioning - i.e. you are supposed to become more efficient at burning fat. This point however is arguable as to the effectiveness.
They are two very different things.
You are correct in your comparison of keto vs paleo. Paleo eliminates grains, dairy and limits nuts and eggs. All processed meats are also eliminated. Essentially, it allows you to eat natural whole foods and cuts sodium.
I am not a fan or keto diets as it can cause added stress on the body, especially kidneys. Also, there is no science that suggest it provides any greater advantage to weight loss or fat loss. If you are a bread or carb-a-holic than a primal or paleo diet is a good place to start. For my wife, who had a medical condition its way of life.0 -
If i want to just be low carb what should my macros be? I want to stay fairly low with carbs methinks.0
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i have never tried keto diet myself but i have seen guys on here get fantastic results from it ( i am talking 89 lbs in 4.5 months and his bench is upto 350 lbs!) thanks to the efficient fuel partitioning.Also i'd like to point out that if you want to get into a nutritional ketosis,you can't have your protein numbers that high.Read this book if you are interested in ketosis-the art and science of low carbohydrate performance or just google Jeff Volek and Phinney.They are pioneers in the field of low carb science.
I am just sharing what i know about low carb diets and in no way supporting keto based diets(untill i try it personally)0 -
Also, there is no science that suggest it provides any greater advantage to weight loss or fat loss.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:sUbLgnm0uawJ:anhi.org/abbottnutritionrd/pdfs/110th%20proceedings/110th_AN_Conference_Volek_12-7-09.pdf+&hl=en&gl=in&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiGV44egBrPcPaoLtaoWZdcJaeLgHnU02frMuCMKvH19psjPvn1hpHQO9RKk_34BjI2WVjG6GV_lD0SPldMVRa6Y1I6GVcQDaGlvQuweZKZvCnpeysyEgvnbkr14s_uD6Ot0Bp6&sig=AHIEtbQ72otKQzbDUlZSZ8dn3_GWL8Qe4w
sorry for the big *kitten* link lol but i found this research very interesting so thought i would share with you0 -
i have never tried keto diet myself but i have seen guys on here get fantastic results from it ( i am talking 89 lbs in 4.5 months and his bench is upto 350 lbs!) thanks to the efficient fuel partitioning.Also i'd like to point out that if you want to get into a nutritional ketosis,you can't have your protein numbers that high.Read this book if you are interested in ketosis-the art and science of low carbohydrate performance or just google Jeff Volek and Phinney.They are pioneers in the field of low carb science.
I am just sharing what i know about low carb diets and in no way supporting keto based diets(untill i try it personally)
I think I know who you mean and I would take that with a pinch of salt tbh.0 -
If i want to just be low carb what should my macros be? I want to stay fairly low with carbs methinks.
If you want to stay fairly low, just use your 'variable' amount for protein/fat.0 -
Also, there is no science that suggest it provides any greater advantage to weight loss or fat loss.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:sUbLgnm0uawJ:anhi.org/abbottnutritionrd/pdfs/110th%20proceedings/110th_AN_Conference_Volek_12-7-09.pdf+&hl=en&gl=in&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiGV44egBrPcPaoLtaoWZdcJaeLgHnU02frMuCMKvH19psjPvn1hpHQO9RKk_34BjI2WVjG6GV_lD0SPldMVRa6Y1I6GVcQDaGlvQuweZKZvCnpeysyEgvnbkr14s_uD6Ot0Bp6&sig=AHIEtbQ72otKQzbDUlZSZ8dn3_GWL8Qe4w
sorry for the big *kitten* link lol but i found this research very interesting so thought i would share with you
I cannot get into that. Do you have another link?0 -
Also, there is no science that suggest it provides any greater advantage to weight loss or fat loss.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:sUbLgnm0uawJ:anhi.org/abbottnutritionrd/pdfs/110th%20proceedings/110th_AN_Conference_Volek_12-7-09.pdf+&hl=en&gl=in&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiGV44egBrPcPaoLtaoWZdcJaeLgHnU02frMuCMKvH19psjPvn1hpHQO9RKk_34BjI2WVjG6GV_lD0SPldMVRa6Y1I6GVcQDaGlvQuweZKZvCnpeysyEgvnbkr14s_uD6Ot0Bp6&sig=AHIEtbQ72otKQzbDUlZSZ8dn3_GWL8Qe4w
sorry for the big *kitten* link lol but i found this research very interesting so thought i would share with you
I cannot get into that. Do you have another link?
its a pdf file.Ok do one thing..google this "Impact of Nutrition on Lean Body Mass and Exercise Recovery in Athletes".And open the first pdf search result you get0 -
i have never tried keto diet myself but i have seen guys on here get fantastic results from it ( i am talking 89 lbs in 4.5 months and his bench is upto 350 lbs!) thanks to the efficient fuel partitioning.Also i'd like to point out that if you want to get into a nutritional ketosis,you can't have your protein numbers that high.Read this book if you are interested in ketosis-the art and science of low carbohydrate performance or just google Jeff Volek and Phinney.They are pioneers in the field of low carb science.
I am just sharing what i know about low carb diets and in no way supporting keto based diets(untill i try it personally)
I think I know who you mean and I would take that with a pinch of salt tbh.
lol given your knowledge and expertize,skepticism over something like this is inevitable.So just watch their youtube videos volek and Phinney or read the book i previously mentioned.Who knows you might get something valuable out of it
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Also, there is no science that suggest it provides any greater advantage to weight loss or fat loss.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:sUbLgnm0uawJ:anhi.org/abbottnutritionrd/pdfs/110th%20proceedings/110th_AN_Conference_Volek_12-7-09.pdf+&hl=en&gl=in&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiGV44egBrPcPaoLtaoWZdcJaeLgHnU02frMuCMKvH19psjPvn1hpHQO9RKk_34BjI2WVjG6GV_lD0SPldMVRa6Y1I6GVcQDaGlvQuweZKZvCnpeysyEgvnbkr14s_uD6Ot0Bp6&sig=AHIEtbQ72otKQzbDUlZSZ8dn3_GWL8Qe4w
sorry for the big *kitten* link lol but i found this research very interesting so thought i would share with you
I cannot get into that. Do you have another link?
its a pdf file.Ok do one thing..google this "Impact of Nutrition on Lean Body Mass and Exercise Recovery in Athletes".And open the first pdf search result you get
Thanks.
The problem with these interpretations is that they do not keep protein constant.
At first glance - and I need to look at them further, the main study cited is this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC538279/. Protein was not held constant from what I can see.Also, the study was only 21 days and so not a good representation of long-term results.
I will check out the other studies also.0 -
i have never tried keto diet myself but i have seen guys on here get fantastic results from it ( i am talking 89 lbs in 4.5 months and his bench is upto 350 lbs!) thanks to the efficient fuel partitioning.Also i'd like to point out that if you want to get into a nutritional ketosis,you can't have your protein numbers that high.Read this book if you are interested in ketosis-the art and science of low carbohydrate performance or just google Jeff Volek and Phinney.They are pioneers in the field of low carb science.
I am just sharing what i know about low carb diets and in no way supporting keto based diets(untill i try it personally)
I think I know who you mean and I would take that with a pinch of salt tbh.
lol given your knowledge and expertize,skepticism over something like this is inevitable.So just watch their youtube videos volek and Phinney or read the book i previously mentioned.Who knows you might get something valuable out of it
I am talking about the person you referred to getting fantastic results.0 -
i know you are talking about spartanmaker.And he is following that book to the T0
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i know you are talking about spartanmaker.And he is following that book to the T
I am not doubting that he is following the book.
I just want to be clear here - I am not saying that you cannot have good gym performance on a keto diet - some can, but many cannot. There is also the very large concern of adherence when you need to stick to a very restrictive plan.0 -
Also, there is no science that suggest it provides any greater advantage to weight loss or fat loss.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:sUbLgnm0uawJ:anhi.org/abbottnutritionrd/pdfs/110th%20proceedings/110th_AN_Conference_Volek_12-7-09.pdf+&hl=en&gl=in&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiGV44egBrPcPaoLtaoWZdcJaeLgHnU02frMuCMKvH19psjPvn1hpHQO9RKk_34BjI2WVjG6GV_lD0SPldMVRa6Y1I6GVcQDaGlvQuweZKZvCnpeysyEgvnbkr14s_uD6Ot0Bp6&sig=AHIEtbQ72otKQzbDUlZSZ8dn3_GWL8Qe4w
sorry for the big *kitten* link lol but i found this research very interesting so thought i would share with you
I cannot get into that. Do you have another link?
its a pdf file.Ok do one thing..google this "Impact of Nutrition on Lean Body Mass and Exercise Recovery in Athletes".And open the first pdf search result you get
Thanks.
The problem with these interpretations is that they do not keep protein constant.
At first glance - and I need to look at them further, the main study cited is this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC538279/. Protein was not held constant from what I can see.Also, the study was only 21 days and so not a good representation of long-term results.
I will check out the other studies also.
check the other studies..they are of proper duration(12 weeks)0
