low carb dieting to cut
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josiahutah
Posts: 11
Atkins? Ketogenic diet? Or other low carb diet? You know what's funny? Is that there is plenty of evidence that supports the success of low carb dieting, yet there is plenty of evidence that discredits it! I've come to the conclusion that everyone responds to carbs differently. We must do our own experients to see what works for our own bodies!
After being influenced by Tom Venuto's book, Burn the Fat Feed the Muscle (Part II), I have developed a spreadsheet that tracks weight, body fat, lean body mass, calories, macronutrient ratios, training volume, training intensity, and other variables to experiment with. You may be so maticulous in your tracking, but you should at least monitor your lean body mass and body fat. By doing so I have stopped the loss of muscle through too much cardio and I've been able to determine exactly what my body needs (training and calories) to maintain it's current state (180lbs, 18% body fat). I consider my self as mostly an ectomorph, but have endo morph qualities around my lower waist (I've always had love handles but I am pretty lean everywhere else).
I have been reading up on carb cycling techniques and plan to implement one such technique soon. I am open to ideas and would like your input. Have you done this before? I think I will start with a modest reduction in carbs by 20% while increasing protein 20% resulting in a macronutrient ration of 35/50/15 (carb/prot/fat). Why do something as extreme as Atkins or Ketosis if my body responds to something more modest. I'm worried about rising blood lipid levels on a high fat diet, and I'm worried about decreases in energy needed to get the most out of my workouts (weightlifting for muscle size).
What do you think?
After being influenced by Tom Venuto's book, Burn the Fat Feed the Muscle (Part II), I have developed a spreadsheet that tracks weight, body fat, lean body mass, calories, macronutrient ratios, training volume, training intensity, and other variables to experiment with. You may be so maticulous in your tracking, but you should at least monitor your lean body mass and body fat. By doing so I have stopped the loss of muscle through too much cardio and I've been able to determine exactly what my body needs (training and calories) to maintain it's current state (180lbs, 18% body fat). I consider my self as mostly an ectomorph, but have endo morph qualities around my lower waist (I've always had love handles but I am pretty lean everywhere else).
I have been reading up on carb cycling techniques and plan to implement one such technique soon. I am open to ideas and would like your input. Have you done this before? I think I will start with a modest reduction in carbs by 20% while increasing protein 20% resulting in a macronutrient ration of 35/50/15 (carb/prot/fat). Why do something as extreme as Atkins or Ketosis if my body responds to something more modest. I'm worried about rising blood lipid levels on a high fat diet, and I'm worried about decreases in energy needed to get the most out of my workouts (weightlifting for muscle size).
What do you think?
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Replies
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If you're going to carb cycle, look into carbohydrate backloading.
Don't waste time cutting if you're already pretty skinny though. Bulk and put on some size first.0 -
If you're going to carb cycle, look into carbohydrate backloading.
Don't waste time cutting if you're already pretty skinny though. Bulk and put on some size first.
I looked into carbohydrate backloading. It seems like this is the jist of it: Eat carbs (any carb you want, i.e, junk food) at a time where your body is least sensitive to insulin. This happens to be at night time. This is interesting considering most of what you hear tells you that you should not eat a lot before bed.
When consuming a high carb meal, I suppose it is possible to store less fat when consuming it at a time where insulin is less likely to store excess carbs into fat as oppose to a time of greater insulin sensitivity (such as the morning). But lets say that instead of eating that high carb meal at night, that you ate it before and after a workout (regardless of time of day). This uses insulin to your advantage as it stores carbs into delpeated muscles and liver rather than fat. By eating high carbs around your workouts and limiting them for the rest of the day, not only do you decrease fat storage, but you support a faster recovery of your muscles.
Even though you may be storing less fat at a time of low insulin sensitivity, you are still storing SOME fat. Since insulin is still somewhat working, why compound fat storage by consuming "junk food"? What incite do you have?
When cutting carbs, I still feel that what little carbs you do consume during the day should be before and after workouts. The remainder should be tapered down towards the end of the day.0 -
Atkins? Ketogenic diet? Or other low carb diet? You know what's funny? Is that there is plenty of evidence that supports the success of low carb dieting, yet there is plenty of evidence that discredits it! I've come to the conclusion that everyone responds to carbs differently. We must do our own experients to see what works for our own bodies!
After being influenced by Tom Venuto's book, Burn the Fat Feed the Muscle (Part II), I have developed a spreadsheet that tracks weight, body fat, lean body mass, calories, macronutrient ratios, training volume, training intensity, and other variables to experiment with. You may be so maticulous in your tracking, but you should at least monitor your lean body mass and body fat. By doing so I have stopped the loss of muscle through too much cardio and I've been able to determine exactly what my body needs (training and calories) to maintain it's current state (180lbs, 18% body fat). I consider my self as mostly an ectomorph, but have endo morph qualities around my lower waist (I've always had love handles but I am pretty lean everywhere else).
I have been reading up on carb cycling techniques and plan to implement one such technique soon. I am open to ideas and would like your input. Have you done this before? I think I will start with a modest reduction in carbs by 20% while increasing protein 20% resulting in a macronutrient ration of 35/50/15 (carb/prot/fat). Why do something as extreme as Atkins or Ketosis if my body responds to something more modest. I'm worried about rising blood lipid levels on a high fat diet, and I'm worried about decreases in energy needed to get the most out of my workouts (weightlifting for muscle size).
What do you think?
As of 12/2/2012, I have implemented carb cycling. It goes something like this (note that 2600 are my maintenance calories, a number like 55/30/15 corresponds to carb/protein/fat percentages of total calories, and leptin is a metabolism/hunger/fat-burning hormone):
Calorie deficit for 3 days followed by a surplus for 1 day and repeat. Start at 15-30% below maintenance calories (2600*(1-0.15)=2210 Cal) at 40/40/20 on low calorie days. Do 15-20% above maintenance (2600*(1+0.15)=2990 Cal) at 55/30/15 calories on high calorie days. Fruit carbs don’t restore leptin like other carb sources so don’t carb load with fruit. Just eat a normal amount. Fat doesn’t restore leptin as well so keep fat intake low.
I work out first thing in the morning (because that way it always gets done) and I consume a high protein, high carb (simple and natural carb, i.e. fruit), low fat protein shake directly after. Somewhere between the workout and lunch I eat another high carb meal (starchy/complex carbs, i.e. oats). For that rest of the day, I limit carbs to fibrous, low calories ones i.e. chicken salad, salmon salad, broccoli, cauliflower, zucchini, tomatoes, asparagus, onions, peppers, green beans, mushrooms, cucumber, and spinich.
My goal is to reduce body fat while maintaining as much muscle as possible. We'll see how it goes.0 -
Insulin is a storage hormone. If there is not an overconsumption of energy (cals) then there is nothing to store. I tend to agree that if you want to eat some junk then around a training session is a good idea. That being said, if you are still in cal deficit for the whole day then over time weight will be lost not gained. Hence why total macronutrients consumed is more important than when they are consumed.
Re your carb cycling: You are right re the fructose and fat on a refeed but eating 400cals over maintenance is not going to require a specific refeed (unlike if you were fully glycogen depleted from a very low carb diet).
How tall are you? If your goal is to lose fat and retain LBM then those macros should work pretty well IMO. A slow cut is required to retain as much LBM as possible.0 -
Don't forget though, carb back loading works (best) when you train in the late afternoon/evening so that your carb intake post workout will spike your insulin levels before you sleep (when your body repairs). However, it should be noted that carbs at night reduce growth hormone secretion.
Like many other diets, it's def one that should be cycled.
Davey is on point. Eating at a slight deficit while allowing your body enough carbs to function comfortably (user specific) and enough protein to prevent muscle wasting is the way to go. It's a slow process but in the end will yield the best results (imo)0 -
Don't forget though, carb back loading works (best) when you train in the late afternoon/evening so that your carb intake post workout will spike your insulin levels before you sleep (when your body repairs). However, it should be noted that carbs at night reduce growth hormone secretion.
It addressed in the book. One of the main reasons you're eating "junk" carbs is so that you get the insulin spike post training but levels have dropped before bed. So your GH secretion isn't hindered from your backload, according to the book.
It may not be the holy grail of diets, but everyone I've talked to is seeing pretty great results from Keifer's diet protocols. If it's good enough for elite level athletes, I'd say the average joes around here could take a chance if they wanna try it.0 -
If you're going to carb cycle, look into carbohydrate backloading.
Don't waste time cutting if you're already pretty skinny though. Bulk and put on some size first.
I looked into carbohydrate backloading. It seems like this is the jist of it: Eat carbs (any carb you want, i.e, junk food) at a time where your body is least sensitive to insulin. This happens to be at night time. This is interesting considering most of what you hear tells you that you should not eat a lot before bed.
When consuming a high carb meal, I suppose it is possible to store less fat when consuming it at a time where insulin is less likely to store excess carbs into fat as oppose to a time of greater insulin sensitivity (such as the morning). But lets say that instead of eating that high carb meal at night, that you ate it before and after a workout (regardless of time of day). This uses insulin to your advantage as it stores carbs into delpeated muscles and liver rather than fat. By eating high carbs around your workouts and limiting them for the rest of the day, not only do you decrease fat storage, but you support a faster recovery of your muscles.
Even though you may be storing less fat at a time of low insulin sensitivity, you are still storing SOME fat. Since insulin is still somewhat working, why compound fat storage by consuming "junk food"? What incite do you have?
When cutting carbs, I still feel that what little carbs you do consume during the day should be before and after workouts. The remainder should be tapered down towards the end of the day.
You missed an important part of Kiefer's Carb Back-loading at night. He says to slam High Glycemic Index carbs after 5pm POST-WORKOUT. I've read and purchased the ebook and felt like this was the main difference from other philosophies.0 -
Insulin is a storage hormone. If there is not an overconsumption of energy (cals) then there is nothing to store. I tend to agree that if you want to eat some junk then around a training session is a good idea. That being said, if you are still in cal deficit for the whole day then over time weight will be lost not gained. Hence why total macronutrients consumed is more important than when they are consumed.
Re your carb cycling: You are right re the fructose and fat on a refeed but eating 400cals over maintenance is not going to require a specific refeed (unlike if you were fully glycogen depleted from a very low carb diet).
How tall are you? If your goal is to lose fat and retain LBM then those macros should work pretty well IMO. A slow cut is required to retain as much LBM as possible.
Man! Believe me when I tell you that I am doing a slow cut and still losing LBM. I'm losing roughly 2 lbs per week with about 1 lbs of that being fat and the other pound being LBM. I think I still need to give it time to settle body fluctuations, but I guess that's a sure sign of an ecto morph!0 -
If you're going to carb cycle, look into carbohydrate backloading.
Don't waste time cutting if you're already pretty skinny though. Bulk and put on some size first.
I looked into carbohydrate backloading. It seems like this is the jist of it: Eat carbs (any carb you want, i.e, junk food) at a time where your body is least sensitive to insulin. This happens to be at night time. This is interesting considering most of what you hear tells you that you should not eat a lot before bed.
When consuming a high carb meal, I suppose it is possible to store less fat when consuming it at a time where insulin is less likely to store excess carbs into fat as oppose to a time of greater insulin sensitivity (such as the morning). But lets say that instead of eating that high carb meal at night, that you ate it before and after a workout (regardless of time of day). This uses insulin to your advantage as it stores carbs into delpeated muscles and liver rather than fat. By eating high carbs around your workouts and limiting them for the rest of the day, not only do you decrease fat storage, but you support a faster recovery of your muscles.
Even though you may be storing less fat at a time of low insulin sensitivity, you are still storing SOME fat. Since insulin is still somewhat working, why compound fat storage by consuming "junk food"? What incite do you have?
When cutting carbs, I still feel that what little carbs you do consume during the day should be before and after workouts. The remainder should be tapered down towards the end of the day.
You missed an important part of Kiefer's Carb Back-loading at night. He says to slam High Glycemic Index carbs after 5pm POST-WORKOUT. I've read and purchased the ebook and felt like this was the main difference from other philosophies.
You're right. That is an important point to miss. Simple carbs post workout aid muscle recovery. Does it say to simulaneosly keep fat low? From what I understand, post-workout meal fat content should be as low as possible. Not sure exactly why but it makes sence that fat doesn't help to restore glycogen levels at all.0 -
You're right. That is an important point to miss. Simple carbs post workout aid muscle recovery. Does it say to simulaneosly keep fat low? From what I understand, post-workout meal fat content should be as low as possible. Not sure exactly why but it makes sence that fat doesn't help to restore glycogen levels at all.
I don't recall him saying fat needed to be low in the post workout phase. As some of the reccommended foods were fresh pastries.0 -
I don't believe he emphasizes low fats post-workouts. He recommends pizza and donuts post workout.0
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Atkins? Ketogenic diet? Or other low carb diet? You know what's funny? Is that there is plenty of evidence that supports the success of low carb dieting, yet there is plenty of evidence that discredits it! I've come to the conclusion that everyone responds to carbs differently. We must do our own experients to see what works for our own bodies!
After being influenced by Tom Venuto's book, Burn the Fat Feed the Muscle (Part II), I have developed a spreadsheet that tracks weight, body fat, lean body mass, calories, macronutrient ratios, training volume, training intensity, and other variables to experiment with. You may be so maticulous in your tracking, but you should at least monitor your lean body mass and body fat. By doing so I have stopped the loss of muscle through too much cardio and I've been able to determine exactly what my body needs (training and calories) to maintain it's current state (180lbs, 18% body fat). I consider my self as mostly an ectomorph, but have endo morph qualities around my lower waist (I've always had love handles but I am pretty lean everywhere else).
I have been reading up on carb cycling techniques and plan to implement one such technique soon. I am open to ideas and would like your input. Have you done this before? I think I will start with a modest reduction in carbs by 20% while increasing protein 20% resulting in a macronutrient ration of 35/50/15 (carb/prot/fat). Why do something as extreme as Atkins or Ketosis if my body responds to something more modest. I'm worried about rising blood lipid levels on a high fat diet, and I'm worried about decreases in energy needed to get the most out of my workouts (weightlifting for muscle size).
What do you think?
As of 12/2/2012, I have implemented carb cycling. It goes something like this (note that 2600 are my maintenance calories, a number like 55/30/15 corresponds to carb/protein/fat percentages of total calories, and leptin is a metabolism/hunger/fat-burning hormone):
Calorie deficit for 3 days followed by a surplus for 1 day and repeat. Start at 15-30% below maintenance calories (2600*(1-0.15)=2210 Cal) at 40/40/20 on low calorie days. Do 15-20% above maintenance (2600*(1+0.15)=2990 Cal) at 55/30/15 calories on high calorie days. Fruit carbs don’t restore leptin like other carb sources so don’t carb load with fruit. Just eat a normal amount. Fat doesn’t restore leptin as well so keep fat intake low.
I work out first thing in the morning (because that way it always gets done) and I consume a high protein, high carb (simple and natural carb, i.e. fruit), low fat protein shake directly after. Somewhere between the workout and lunch I eat another high carb meal (starchy/complex carbs, i.e. oats). For that rest of the day, I limit carbs to fibrous, low calories ones i.e. chicken salad, salmon salad, broccoli, cauliflower, zucchini, tomatoes, asparagus, onions, peppers, green beans, mushrooms, cucumber, and spinich.
My goal is to reduce body fat while maintaining as much muscle as possible. We'll see how it goes.
I wanted to give an update on how my diet is going. When on the previous plan, I felt strong hunger cravings on the low carb days making it very difficult to not cheat. I have since stopped the carb cycling, sticking 280g of daily carbs throughout the whole week except for one weekly cheat meal. The previous plan was not going to be sustainable for me due to the hunger intensity. I need to tweek it somehow to make it work. Maybe my total calories are just too low. Maybe I will bump up total calories and see if I still lose fat. If I do lose fat while keeping a tolerable hunger level, that may be the solution.
Comments?0 -
it happens to everyone on low days. some people have the discipline to endure, others allow their hormonal instinct to take over.0
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Yeah I'd add a few hundred calories to your diet. I think losing 2lb a week is too much but i guess its up to you. I'm currently trying to lose a little body fat whilst trying to add some muscle at the same time. I'm only losing about half or a pound a week.
Also i haven't read every post ( not got time atm sorry ) but i read somewhere its important to raise fat levels while on a cut. I can't remember the exact science behind it, but its a slower source of energy and is important for keeping hold of the muscle you already have. as long as its the good fats obviously.
Peace out0 -
If you're having trouble with hunger or feeling bad, try upping your fat by a good deal.
There was a short period on CBL when I felt absolutely awful. Added in more peanut butter and coconut oil, and I felt a lot better.0 -
In most cutting situations performance in the gym is usually affected due to the loss of the ATP (energy) that the body would usually receive when at maintenance or even a bulk level. In my experience, an effective counter measure could be Intermittent fasting (IF) or carb back-loading. There are a number of benefits in these:
An increase in Human growth hormone, cortisol and a spike in your insulin. The cortisol and insulin parts sound negative I know, but they are vital in losing fat and building muscle respectively (they would not be in your body if they were not helpful in some way).
Also from my experience my body recovered quicker while doing IF.0 -
Meal timing, low carb, high carb, type of carb, etc. will not significantly impact overall body composition. That simple. This should no longer be an issue of debate.0
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Meal timing, low carb, high carb, type of carb, etc. will not significantly impact overall body composition. That simple. This should no longer be an issue of debate.
Unless you've done it, you can't really say that.
You can read all the books you want, and science people to death (even though there is science supporting CBL), but unless you actually do it, you can't say much.
I lost 10 pounds in a short bout of carbohydrate backloading, and my lifts didn't suffer from it. I used to feel the same way you did, but I can literally just cut carbs from my mornings and within a couple weeks I'm leaner... There are tons of hormones in your body, and their levels peak at different times per day. I think even a remedial understanding of how the body works would lead to an understanding that just maybe you could optimize the way those hormones work for you, by timing your nutrition.
I saw a good debate on youtube yesterday of some skinny kid who reads a lot of nutrition books, and a successful bodybuilder. The kid could "disprove" the way the bodybuilder ate, and say that it didn't make a difference. But the bodybuilder politely explained to him that regardless of the evidence, if it works for you, you're dumb to not continue....0 -
If you're going to carb cycle, look into carbohydrate backloading.
Don't waste time cutting if you're already pretty skinny though. Bulk and put on some size first.
I looked into carbohydrate backloading. It seems like this is the jist of it: Eat carbs (any carb you want, i.e, junk food) at a time where your body is least sensitive to insulin. This happens to be at night time. This is interesting considering most of what you hear tells you that you should not eat a lot before bed.
You keep fats low post workout, so the proteins can get to your muscles for repair faster. Fats slow down digestion, and you don't want that when you are trying to get simple carbs and a fast digesting protein into your system as soon as possible. :-)
When consuming a high carb meal, I suppose it is possible to store less fat when consuming it at a time where insulin is less likely to store excess carbs into fat as oppose to a time of greater insulin sensitivity (such as the morning). But lets say that instead of eating that high carb meal at night, that you ate it before and after a workout (regardless of time of day). This uses insulin to your advantage as it stores carbs into delpeated muscles and liver rather than fat. By eating high carbs around your workouts and limiting them for the rest of the day, not only do you decrease fat storage, but you support a faster recovery of your muscles.
Even though you may be storing less fat at a time of low insulin sensitivity, you are still storing SOME fat. Since insulin is still somewhat working, why compound fat storage by consuming "junk food"? What incite do you have?
When cutting carbs, I still feel that what little carbs you do consume during the day should be before and after workouts. The remainder should be tapered down towards the end of the day.
You missed an important part of Kiefer's Carb Back-loading at night. He says to slam High Glycemic Index carbs after 5pm POST-WORKOUT. I've read and purchased the ebook and felt like this was the main difference from other philosophies.
You're right. That is an important point to miss. Simple carbs post workout aid muscle recovery. Does it say to simulaneosly keep fat low? From what I understand, post-workout meal fat content should be as low as possible. Not sure exactly why but it makes sence that fat doesn't help to restore glycogen levels at all.0 -
Meal timing, low carb, high carb, type of carb, etc. will not significantly impact overall body composition. That simple. This should no longer be an issue of debate.
Unless you've done it, you can't really say that.
You can read all the books you want, and science people to death (even though there is science supporting CBL), but unless you actually do it, you can't say much.
I lost 10 pounds in a short bout of carbohydrate backloading, and my lifts didn't suffer from it. I used to feel the same way you did, but I can literally just cut carbs from my mornings and within a couple weeks I'm leaner... There are tons of hormones in your body, and their levels peak at different times per day. I think even a remedial understanding of how the body works would lead to an
understanding that just maybe you could optimize the way those hormones work for you, by timing your nutrition.
So the fact that your overall daily caloric consumption was lowered due to cutting carbs had nothing to do with your weight loss, it was the endogenous hormones doing something magical that you seemingly can't even explain yourself?
I saw a good debate on youtube yesterday of some skinny kid who reads a lot of nutrition books, and a successful bodybuilder. The kid could "disprove" the way the bodybuilder ate, and say that it didn't make a difference. But the bodybuilder politely explained to him that regardless of the evidence, if it works for you, you're dumb to not continue....
So the fact that your overall daily caloric consumption was lowered due to cutting carbs had nothing to do with your weight loss, it was the endogenous hormones doing something magical that you seemingly can't even expansion yourself?
There is no need for natural trainees to even acknowledge the existence of hormones.
I'm assuming your referencing the Ian McCarthy and Dave Pulcinella. You seem to have misinterpreted the video or don't understand Ian's bodybuilding philosophy.0
