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5/3/1 Full Body or Other Full Body Method

JNick77

Okay, I've been doing Bill Starr's / MadCow 5x5 for a couple months now and I feel like I keep hitting a wall with it and that perhaps the linear format just isn't for me. Although I will say that I think the full-body format is very good for me as opposed to upper/lower splits.

I went back through some of my books including 5/3/1 and read-up on Wendler's approach to full-body training, which really isn't all that different but the 5/3/1 style on the main lifts might help me get through this plateau / wall.

Then I found myself thinking back to Westside training and trying to figure out a full-body split by incorporating some of those principles.

I'd love to hear some thoughts from other people in this forum.

Replies

ilovedeadlifts

I think, if I were you, I'd give the 5/3/1 full body a try. It's a slower progression, so it should allow you to keep going.
10 pounds per month is gonna be easier to continue with, as opposed to a 5-10 pound per week progression on Madcow's.

In my opinion, screwing with Westside to make it full body wouldn't be a good idea. I think it would become too complicated, and probably not work after a short time.

ArroganceInStep

I think, if I were you, I'd give the 5/3/1 full body a try. It's a slower progression, so it should allow you to keep going.
10 pounds per month is gonna be easier to continue with, as opposed to a 5-10 pound per week progression on Madcow's.

In my opinion, screwing with Westside to make it full body wouldn't be a good idea. I think it would become too complicated, and probably not work after a short time.

This.

Either find a paradigm that has slower progression and keep trucking, or drop the weight, crank the volume, and go after some rep PRs. Both strategies have worked for folks, so it kind of depends on what you think would work best for you.

For me at least, it depends on the lift. With my squats I'm going after volume. With my deadlift I'm trying to slow down progression and pushing my max that way. With bench...well my bench sucks so lets not talk about it.

JNick77

I think, if I were you, I'd give the 5/3/1 full body a try. It's a slower progression, so it should allow you to keep going.
10 pounds per month is gonna be easier to continue with, as opposed to a 5-10 pound per week progression on Madcow's.

In my opinion, screwing with Westside to make it full body wouldn't be a good idea. I think it would become too complicated, and probably not work after a short time.

This.

Either find a paradigm that has slower progression and keep trucking, or drop the weight, crank the volume, and go after some rep PRs. Both strategies have worked for folks, so it kind of depends on what you think would work best for you.

For me at least, it depends on the lift. With my squats I'm going after volume. With my deadlift I'm trying to slow down progression and pushing my max that way. With bench...well my bench sucks so lets not talk about it.

Yeah, that was kind of my gut reaction on full-body Westside too but I wanted to check to see if somebody more experienced had any feedback. I just did a reset on Madcow and have some travel coming up in mid-Feb, so I'll probably just keep doing MC5x5 and then re-evaluate after my work travel dies-down and decide if I want to do 5/3/1 or keep with 5x5. Maybe I just bite the bullet and go back to a 4-day upper/lower split. I just think my body has responded really well to full-body, my physique looks better than ever but my progress has been super slow.

ArroganceInStep

Yeah, that was kind of my gut reaction on full-body Westside too but I wanted to check to see if somebody more experienced had any feedback. I just did a reset on Madcow and have some travel coming up in mid-Feb, so I'll probably just keep doing MC5x5 and then re-evaluate after my work travel dies-down and decide if I want to do 5/3/1 or keep with 5x5. Maybe I just bite the bullet and go back to a 4-day upper/lower split. I just think my body has responded really well to full-body, my physique looks better than ever but my progress has been super slow.

Define super slow.

Depending on where you're at, super slow may be the best you could hope for.

JNick77

Yeah, that was kind of my gut reaction on full-body Westside too but I wanted to check to see if somebody more experienced had any feedback. I just did a reset on Madcow and have some travel coming up in mid-Feb, so I'll probably just keep doing MC5x5 and then re-evaluate after my work travel dies-down and decide if I want to do 5/3/1 or keep with 5x5. Maybe I just bite the bullet and go back to a 4-day upper/lower split. I just think my body has responded really well to full-body, my physique looks better than ever but my progress has been super slow.

Define super slow.

Depending on where you're at, super slow may be the best you could hope for.

I started MC5x5 a couple months ago and made it through I think it was 9 weeks before I hit the wall and just couldn't progress. I did a reset and could only get through week 5 for some reason. Week 5 is the first week after you've already worked up and past weights you could already do. Now granted that was in the middle of Christmas and stuff so that could have been part of the problem.

I've since re-evaluated my diet and did end-up re-tooling my workout day diet especially. I've also added some accessory work such as Repetition Effort DB Bench, Chin-ups, Weighted Dips, Good Mornings, and GHR's. I know MC doesn't call for it but at this point I can't see myself making progress without doing a little accessory work.

ArroganceInStep

I started MC5x5 a couple months ago and made it through I think it was 9 weeks before I hit the wall and just couldn't progress. I did a reset and could only get through week 5 for some reason. Week 5 is the first week after you've already worked up and past weights you could already do. Now granted that was in the middle of Christmas and stuff so that could have been part of the problem.

I've since re-evaluated my diet and did end-up re-tooling my workout day diet especially. I've also added some accessory work such as Repetition Effort DB Bench, Chin-ups, Weighted Dips, Good Mornings, and GHR's. I know MC doesn't call for it but at this point I can't see myself making progress without doing a little accessory work.

Do you consider yourself a beginner, intermediate, or advanced?

ArroganceInStep

Short response was because I was busy. I ask because I wanted to see if it was possible that you were overthinking things? As you get better, gains come slower, and maybe that's where you're at?

I always try to be careful in my own training of getting too complicated. As long as you have the fundamentals down flawlessly and listen to you're body, you should do well.

Punktorian

Try a deload, maybe go back a week or so on the numbers and do those again as well. If that doesn't work the easiest transition would be Bill Starr's advanced 5x5. It is a really similar template but without the linear progression, also gives you the option to go to 3x3 for a few weeks. If you decide to go to the peaking 3x3 part just keep track of how you feel because the intensity definitely goes up at that point.

JNick77

Short response was because I was busy. I ask because I wanted to see if it was possible that you were overthinking things? As you get better, gains come slower, and maybe that's where you're at?

I always try to be careful in my own training of getting too complicated. As long as you have the fundamentals down flawlessly and listen to you're body, you should do well.

I'd say that I'm definitely still an intermediate, nowhere near advanced. I do overthink things sometimes especially when progress becomes slow or stops. I get that plateau's hit but I just feel as if I've been plateaued for too long. I'm gonna stick to it up until I begin traveling in February and then evaluate while on the road. I'm currently on week 2 of my reset, so by the time I start traveling I should be on week 7 of MC5x5. Assuming of course I don't hit that wall again.

Bill Starr's advanced 5x5? I'll have to add that to my reading. Thanks.

ilovedeadlifts

I ran the intermediate version.
First 9 weeks went well. Second time around I got about 5 weeks in and was just burnt out and stopped.

So I definitely know how you feel. I responded well to the squat frequency, but the overall progression was too fast for me to keep up with. I still plan on trying to run that once per year to try to add some weight to my squats

ArroganceInStep

I'd say that I'm definitely still an intermediate, nowhere near advanced. I do overthink things sometimes especially when progress becomes slow or stops. I get that plateau's hit but I just feel as if I've been plateaued for too long. I'm gonna stick to it up until I begin traveling in February and then evaluate while on the road. I'm currently on week 2 of my reset, so by the time I start traveling I should be on week 7 of MC5x5. Assuming of course I don't hit that wall again.

Bill Starr's advanced 5x5? I'll have to add that to my reading. Thanks.

Fair enough, I think sticking with it until February is a good thing. The time to evaluate will be nice (I'm assuming you won't be lifting as hard on the road, the break may help as well).

Walls are a *****, but if you didn't hit them making gains wouldn't be nearly as satisfying. Good luck.

__RANDY__

I've been doing 5/3/1 for 6 months now and the progression isn't as slow as it claims to be. This weekend after I deadlift I plan on going over my logs and comparing all the numbers. So i'll report back sunday.

JNick77

I ran the intermediate version.
First 9 weeks went well. Second time around I got about 5 weeks in and was just burnt out and stopped.

So I definitely know how you feel. I responded well to the squat frequency, but the overall progression was too fast for me to keep up with. I still plan on trying to run that once per year to try to add some weight to my squats

That's actually good to hear and I feel a little bit better now. I wonder if changing the template from week 4 to like week 6 would help slow down the progression a little.

Fair enough, I think sticking with it until February is a good thing. The time to evaluate will be nice (I'm assuming you won't be lifting as hard on the road, the break may help as well).

Likely I won't be but I hope to find a gym close by where I'll be staying.

Sarauk2sf

Tagging as I am not familiar with the 5/3/1 full body so want to follow. I do the 4 day split but have just started modifying it to get squats in more often.

JNick77

Tagging as I am not familiar with the 5/3/1 full body so want to follow. I do the 4 day split but have just started modifying it to get squats in more often.

I'm not sure if it's in his first book but if you get 5/3/1 2nd edition it is in the back of that book, like page 79 or something.

ilovedeadlifts

You could tweak the 5x5 like you said. maybe make you tie your rep PR in week 5 or 6.
You can also make smaller increases from week to week. I know my squats typically jumped 10 pounds per week, you could change that to 5.

Just do what you think you're going to enjoy doing, because thats how you'll get the best results

a_vettestingray

Can I jump on this wagon? I ran 13 Weeks of SL5x5 and saw some decent gains. According to the charts, my lifts are intermediate range but I felt like I was stalling a lot and squatting every workout made me feel like I couldn't make gains on other lifts. Anyways - long story short, my hubz was the recipient of a gym membership for his birthday (what can I say, I need a spotter) and we are thinking of switching into 5/3/1.

I feel a bit overtrained right now, and was discussing dropping the weight to work on endurance or taking a whole week off and I feel a little burnt out this week. 5/3/1 seems to have the built in deload and focuses on both endurance and strength, right?

JNick77

Can I jump on this wagon? I ran 13 Weeks of SL5x5 and saw some decent gains. According to the charts, my lifts are intermediate range but I felt like I was stalling a lot and squatting every workout made me feel like I couldn't make gains on other lifts. Anyways - long story short, my hubz was the recipient of a gym membership for his birthday (what can I say, I need a spotter) and we are thinking of switching into 5/3/1.

I feel a bit overtrained right now, and was discussing dropping the weight to work on endurance or taking a whole week off and I feel a little burnt out this week. 5/3/1 seems to have the built in deload and focuses on both endurance and strength, right?

Hi, glad you got good results from SL5x5. 5/3/1 will focus on strength and hypertrophy, not necessarily endurance. If you're interested in endurance on an "off-day" do some cardio or "boot-camp" type exercise.

ilovedeadlifts

I feel a bit overtrained right now, and was discussing dropping the weight to work on endurance or taking a whole week off and I feel a little burnt out this week. 5/3/1 seems to have the built in deload and focuses on both endurance and strength, right?

It's mainly strength, with a little hypertrophy depending on how you set up your assistance work.

JNick has the right idea. You can do cardio or conditioning on off days if you're concerned with endurance.

Wendler has recently gotten behind higher rep work for assistance lifts, and has a 100 rep layout on the internet somewhere. So that would help a bit with endurance possibly.

ArroganceInStep

Wendler has recently gotten behind higher rep work for assistance lifts, and has a 100 rep layout on the internet somewhere. So that would help a bit with endurance possibly.

Right here: http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most.../100rep_challenge

One thing I'll point out about cardio, that has held true for me. If I'm really getting beatup lifting and I try to do intervals on my off days, I find it tends to make things worse. I've switched to doing light cardio (and I mean REAL light, like watch a movie on my tablet while going at 8-10 mph on the lazy recliner bikes light) and find I feel much better with that. If I had more time at the gym every day, I think what I'd do is lift 3-4 times a week and do interval work after lifting, and then do light steady state cardio on my off days.

As ild had stated, 5/3/1 is primarily strength. Any endurance you want would come from how you setup your assistance work. 5/3/1 isn't a set in stone protocol, but rather a lifting methodology that you can use with a variety of specific programs.

JNick77

I'm almost embarrassed to admit this but you know what I've been doing for cardio lately, friggin' burpees. LOL. Seriously, no *kitten* do 100 burpees as fast as you can and tell me how you feel afterwards. I can run a mile in less time than it takes me to finish those. They are no joke.

__RANDY__

I'll lend you my copy.

http://db.tt/1jsAoZgK

porffor

I'll lend you my copy.

http://db.tt/1jsAoZgK

Hope you don't mind if I take you up on this.. I know it wasn't intended for me! lol

I've been thinking of 5/3/1 now as running splits due to training with a more experienced lifter who is competing before me next, so has strong work to do.

Will help me train with her without my burning out and carrying on afterwards for 5 weeks or so till my next comp. It's 14 weeks from now.

Thanks

__RANDY__

I'll lend you my copy.

http://db.tt/1jsAoZgK

Hope you don't mind if I take you up on this.. I know it wasn't intended for me! lol

I've been thinking of 5/3/1 now as running splits due to training with a more experienced lifter who is competing before me next, so has strong work to do. Will help me train with her without my burning out and carrying on afterwards for 5 weeks or so till my next comp. It's 14 weeks from now.

Thanks

It's intended for anyone interested, it's a great book.

porffor

I'll lend you my copy.

http://db.tt/1jsAoZgK

Hope you don't mind if I take you up on this.. I know it wasn't intended for me! lol

I've been thinking of 5/3/1 now as running splits due to training with a more experienced lifter who is competing before me next, so has strong work to do. Will help me train with her without my burning out and carrying on afterwards for 5 weeks or so till my next comp. It's 14 weeks from now.

Thanks

It's intended for anyone interested, it's a great book.

Thanks

very kind of you. - Already started reading.