Deciding when you're ready for an "intermediate" program
DopeItUp
Posts: 18,771 Member
So I've been doing a slightly modified generic 5x5 program (basically stronglifts but with more deadlifts because I like them) for maybe 10 months now. It's really less than that because I managed to hurt my bicep, my hip and my wrist all in the same time frame and had to take 2 months off from most of the main lifts (except deadlift).
Anyway, I've heard many definitions of "intermediate". People seem to have different ideas as far as how long you should be lifting (some say a year, some say two, with lots of other random guesses). Other people seem to go by strength standards - but whose? I've seen lots of strength standard graphs and they all vary. Furthermore, some go by absolute numbers, some go by percentages of BW, etc..
Long story short, I'm looking to start Wendler's 5/3/1 which I understand is a little more intermediate than a stronglifts/starting strength type program. The question is: should I go for it or keep working on my 5x5 program for a while?
Currently my tested maxes for example are:
320lb deadlift
225lb squat (can probably do more but I tweaked my knee a few weeks ago so I haven't been testing heavy singles)
145lb OHP
170x5 BP (probably 190-ish 1RM)
I've been in a deficit for the last 2 years and started training in May last year. So my progress is fairly slow but mostly steady.
Anyway, I've heard many definitions of "intermediate". People seem to have different ideas as far as how long you should be lifting (some say a year, some say two, with lots of other random guesses). Other people seem to go by strength standards - but whose? I've seen lots of strength standard graphs and they all vary. Furthermore, some go by absolute numbers, some go by percentages of BW, etc..
Long story short, I'm looking to start Wendler's 5/3/1 which I understand is a little more intermediate than a stronglifts/starting strength type program. The question is: should I go for it or keep working on my 5x5 program for a while?
Currently my tested maxes for example are:
320lb deadlift
225lb squat (can probably do more but I tweaked my knee a few weeks ago so I haven't been testing heavy singles)
145lb OHP
170x5 BP (probably 190-ish 1RM)
I've been in a deficit for the last 2 years and started training in May last year. So my progress is fairly slow but mostly steady.
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Replies
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Bumped cause I'm curious as well!0
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I go with http://www.strstd.com/
Which I think is the same as http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/StrengthStandards.html0 -
I just started 5/3/1 and love it. I have been lifting for almost 2 years and all my lifts are in the intermediate category.0
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you didn't specify how much you weigh.
I'd say if you have resetted 3 or so times on 5x5 then you could either go to 3x5 or 5/3/1.
I stayed with a beginner program until I was at 300/225/400 S/B/DL. (at 77ish KG)0 -
When you stop progressing on a linear program.I'd say if you have resetted 3 or so times on 5x5 then you could either go to 3x5 or 5/3/1.
^ One way to quantify it.0 -
Bump for curious coder0
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When you stop progressing on a linear program.I'd say if you have resetted 3 or so times on 5x5 then you could either go to 3x5 or 5/3/1.
^ One way to quantify it.
^^this, with the qualifier that if you are failing at a level that is quite a bit below the intermediate level in the link taso provided, you should be looking at form and not necessarily changing routines first. In other words, make sure stalls are due to natural progress and not crappy form.0 -
When you stop progressing on a linear program.I'd say if you have resetted 3 or so times on 5x5 then you could either go to 3x5 or 5/3/1.
^ One way to quantify it.
^^this, with the qualifier that if you are failing at a level that is quite a bit below the intermediate level in the link taso provided, you should be looking at form and not necessarily changing routines first. In other words, make sure stalls are due to natural progress and not crappy form.
Or diet/sleep/rest/other0 -
you didn't specify how much you weigh.
I'd say if you have resetted 3 or so times on 5x5 then you could either go to 3x5 or 5/3/1.
I stayed with a beginner program until I was at 300/225/400 S/B/DL. (at 77ish KG)
When I researched the same question, this ^^^^ is what the common answer seemed to be.0 -
When you stop progressing on a linear program.I'd say if you have resetted 3 or so times on 5x5 then you could either go to 3x5 or 5/3/1.
^ One way to quantify it.
^^this, with the qualifier that if you are failing at a level that is quite a bit below the intermediate level in the link taso provided, you should be looking at form and not necessarily changing routines first. In other words, make sure stalls are due to natural progress and not crappy form.
Or diet/sleep/rest/other
Good points, O.P. did state that they have been eating at a deficit for a while.0 -
you didn't specify how much you weigh.
I'd say if you have resetted 3 or so times on 5x5 then you could either go to 3x5 or 5/3/1.
I stayed with a beginner program until I was at 300/225/400 S/B/DL. (at 77ish KG)
I'm 212lbs currently. 6'3". Goal weight is around 10% bodyfat or approximately 190lbs.0 -
I go with http://www.strstd.com/
Which I think is the same as http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/StrengthStandards.html
Judging by that I am:
OHP: right at intermediate
squat: right at novice (to be expected, I just started doing these seriously 2 months ago)
DL and BP: right in the middle of novice and intermediate0 -
When you stop progressing on a linear program.I'd say if you have resetted 3 or so times on 5x5 then you could either go to 3x5 or 5/3/1.
^ One way to quantify it.
^^this, with the qualifier that if you are failing at a level that is quite a bit below the intermediate level in the link taso provided, you should be looking at form and not necessarily changing routines first. In other words, make sure stalls are due to natural progress and not crappy form.
I try to be religious about form. I video my main lifts and have posted them online and to knowledgeable people IRL too. I think form could always be improved but mine is pretty decent.Or diet/sleep/rest/other
My diet is pretty good outside of my beer intake. My diary is open, I tend to follow IIFYM and tend to do pretty well at it. My diet during weekdays (when I'm training) is pretty much spot-on, on weekends it gets a little wonky (especially if there's a UFC event). I get 8-9 hours of sleep a night typically and I workout M/W/F with moderate cardio (30 mins) on T/Th.0 -
Are you still progressing in strength on your linear program?0
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Are you still progressing in strength on your linear program?
Well, yes. Slowly. Very slowly. I'm not adding weight every week or even every other week necessarily. But I'm still pushing it, even if it just means one extra rep on my final set. And then the next week, an extra rep on my last two sets. And then another week, maybe I'll try 5lbs more. That sort of thing. But I feel more worn out every week. For example, it's Sunday night and I'm still sore as **** from Friday's workout.
Having said that I have only reset on my program once (back when I got hurt). Maybe I should try a reset and/or going to 3x5. Maybe once I hit a wall next time in the future, I'll move to 5/3/1. I should be pretty close to "intermediate" on everything by then I would imagine.
I guess the actual point of this thread was to ask, how did all of you decide to move to an intermediate program? How did you know it was time?0 -
Purely my opinion here, but I would recommend staying on a full body as long as possible, especially on a deficit. It sounds like it is time to drop it down to 3 x 5 - keep that going as long as you can and when that gets too much, switch to something like 5/3/1.
ETA: I am a hypocrite in this as I went to 5/3/1 very early, so it is a 'do as I say not as I do' situation.0 -
In my opinion, you should change from a 5x5 to another program after stalling a few times, or when you get to the point where the easy linear progression stops.
That being said, if you've stuck with 5x5 for 10 months and want to move onto 5/3/1, I don't see anything wrong with that. You've put time in and built a base. 5/3/1 is great, just understand the gains are slower than on a 5x5 program, but that's part of being an intermediate.
Are you planning on coming out of a deficit anytime soon? If you've been dieting for 2 years, eating big for a while will surely have a positive impact on your gym performance.0 -
I guess the actual point of this thread was to ask, how did all of you decide to move to an intermediate program? How did you know it was time?
I try to go by happiness rather than a specific number of stalls or whatever.
For myself personally, making progress makes me happy, and easy workouts make me happy. Therefore, if every single damn session is a grinder and I start to want to drop the weight on my foot so I don't have to do anymore squats...even if I'm hitting my allocated reps I'm not happy. Likewise if I'm constantly missing programmed counts, I'm also not happy. It's also not a set number of times. If I JUST missed it, but know I had it in me because the hot girl across the gym was distracting me, well then that's not going to upset me too much, and likewise maybe I'd normally consider it after 4 stalls on the same lift, but if all of my sessions are crappy and I'm not sick, maybe I'd start considering changes after 2 or 3 weeks.
At that point I check to see if my form is ok, I consider my diet and sleep over the past however many weeks, and I consider if I'm programming too aggressively.
If the solution isn't in those sets of questions (i.e. something I can fix without changing my program) I'll look to change paradigms.
If you're happy, stick with it. If not, change it up.
My $0.020 -
Are you still progressing in strength on your linear program?
Well, yes. Slowly. Very slowly. I'm not adding weight every week or even every other week necessarily. But I'm still pushing it, even if it just means one extra rep on my final set. And then the next week, an extra rep on my last two sets. And then another week, maybe I'll try 5lbs more. That sort of thing. But I feel more worn out every week. For example, it's Sunday night and I'm still sore as **** from Friday's workout.
Having said that I have only reset on my program once (back when I got hurt). Maybe I should try a reset and/or going to 3x5. Maybe once I hit a wall next time in the future, I'll move to 5/3/1. I should be pretty close to "intermediate" on everything by then I would imagine.
I guess the actual point of this thread was to ask, how did all of you decide to move to an intermediate program? How did you know it was time?
This is more of a general question to Patrick and Sara since they know more, but what about deload weeks? The 5x5 program doesn't specifically have any time for deload, but I would expect that at some point you're just tired. When is it a good time to incorporate deload weeks into a program like 5x5? How do you know if you need a deload week or a program with less volume?
Have you taken any deload weeks or diet and/or exercise breaks?0 -
Posting to keep an eye.
I'm 80kg or so doing 3x5; Squat 120kg, Bench Press 85kg, Deadlift 135kg and 10kg weighted pullups.
Probably got a bit to go on 3x5, but interesting to see the options.0 -
I try to go by happiness rather than a specific number of stalls or whatever.
I like that quote. It rings true. I like making progress and I sometimes feel like I'm the strongest person in the world when I hit a new PR (even though it's nothing extraordinary in general). Lately, everything just seems like a grind and any progress I make comes from superhuman effort and mental willpower more than actual "gains".Are you planning on coming out of a deficit anytime soon? If you've been dieting for 2 years, eating big for a while will surely have a positive impact on your gym performance.
Good question. At this point I am planning on stopping my deficit when I hit 190lbs (~10% BF) or in October, whichever comes sooner. That will mark the 2.5 year point and I should be pretty close to my goal either way. I plan on doing recomp or bulk/cut cycles after that anyway so I'm not focused on any sort of ultimate goal at this point. I figure 2.5 years in a deficit to get me from 40% BF to ~10% BF is plenty for the first leg of my fitness crusade. So yeah, needless to say I am looking forward to being able to enjoy real gains for a change....
Thanks for everyone's input in this thread, good to get a couple of outside viewpoints from people who have done it before me.0 -
You might want to consider a short diet and training break first.
I absolutely agree with rtalencar85 about happiness, but stagnant gym performance can also be stress related.
A week at TDEE and if you've not taken a week off of training in a while, I'd consider doing both at the same time.
If that doesn't seem to help things, swap programs.
EDIT: Possibly 2 weeks at TDEE.
I'm making the assumption that you've not done these breaks in a while.0 -
Are you still progressing in strength on your linear program?
Well, yes. Slowly. Very slowly. I'm not adding weight every week or even every other week necessarily. But I'm still pushing it, even if it just means one extra rep on my final set. And then the next week, an extra rep on my last two sets. And then another week, maybe I'll try 5lbs more. That sort of thing. But I feel more worn out every week. For example, it's Sunday night and I'm still sore as **** from Friday's workout.
Having said that I have only reset on my program once (back when I got hurt). Maybe I should try a reset and/or going to 3x5. Maybe once I hit a wall next time in the future, I'll move to 5/3/1. I should be pretty close to "intermediate" on everything by then I would imagine.
I guess the actual point of this thread was to ask, how did all of you decide to move to an intermediate program? How did you know it was time?
This is more of a general question to Patrick and Sara since they know more, but what about deload weeks? The 5x5 program doesn't specifically have any time for deload, but I would expect that at some point you're just tired. When is it a good time to incorporate deload weeks into a program like 5x5? How do you know if you need a deload week or a program with less volume?
Have you taken any deload weeks or diet and/or exercise breaks?
deloads are factored in when you stall and drop the weight back 10%. If you are stupid like me when I was on stronglifts and just drop it back a few kg then you don't actually get your deload. Live and learn
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Just following along0
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We way over think stuff here.
My HS lifting program was as follows:
Bench, squat, seated 75* OHP (a very upright incline press), lat pulls owns/dips, and hang cleans.
We did 3x12, 3x8, 3x5, 3x3 in a weekly periodized workout. I did this same workout for 6 years from seventh grade through my senior year...
I was well into "advanced" in all my lifts by my junior year. Same workout entire time.
I think too much focus is given to "when do I need to switch".
Do what you can that doesn't injure you, do the major compounds as often as you can, and add weight when you can...so basically I'd say you may just need to increase weight less often or find what your sticking points are and weak areas and do a few sets of accessory work to get you over a hurdle.0
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