When to bring up potential dealbreakers
ItsCasey
Posts: 4,021 Member
I read an article on one of the blogs that's been linked here before (Evan Marc Katz), and it was about when to discuss things that could cause the person you're dating to walk away. It basically suggested that you should hold off on bringing up divisive issues until you are already fully committed to each other.
The author is Jewish and said he would never marry a woman who wouldn't allow their kids to be raised Jewish. But he didn't bring this up to his non-Jewish girlfriend (now his wife) until six months into their relationship when he already knew she was in love with him. She also kept from him the fact that she had a mountain of credit card debt, and he admitted that he probably wouldn't have stayed with her if he had known it sooner.
I pretty much find this sort of thing to be very deceitful and wrong. I know these are not the types of things you mention on a first date, but shouldn't they come up well before you've reached the "fully in love with each other" stage? I think I would feel very hurt and betrayed if a guy deliberately kept something important from me until he knew I had already fallen for him and would be less likely to leave him over it. For the record, I do consider religion and credit issues to be important.
The author is Jewish and said he would never marry a woman who wouldn't allow their kids to be raised Jewish. But he didn't bring this up to his non-Jewish girlfriend (now his wife) until six months into their relationship when he already knew she was in love with him. She also kept from him the fact that she had a mountain of credit card debt, and he admitted that he probably wouldn't have stayed with her if he had known it sooner.
I pretty much find this sort of thing to be very deceitful and wrong. I know these are not the types of things you mention on a first date, but shouldn't they come up well before you've reached the "fully in love with each other" stage? I think I would feel very hurt and betrayed if a guy deliberately kept something important from me until he knew I had already fallen for him and would be less likely to leave him over it. For the record, I do consider religion and credit issues to be important.
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Hmmm! I can see both sides.
I've often shook my head in disbelief at some of the deal breakers I read on here. It gives me the impression that people aren't in relationships for love anymore. Rather, they care more about someones job, finances, religion, politics etc, than the person themselves.
I know for a fact that nobody is perfect and all too often we turn people down for what could be nothing! In reality, if you share a life with someone that you fall in love with, there is always going to be obstacles to overcome. Hopefully you do that together and love conquers most things. Not ALL things as the saying goes, otherwise I wouldnt be single......lol But that's my experience anyhow.
However, I do see that it could be seen as deceitful. I guess it would cause me major upset if I asked the question and he blatantly lied about it.
I do know a couple that got married recently. He's 44, she's 40. The guy wants children. The woman doesnt. She hasn't told him that yet!!! :ohwell:0 -
It's a slippery slope. I understand the concept but it could just as easily blow up in your face. Good relationships are based on trust and honesty, not hiding the things that might make you less attractive.
But I do believe that when you find the right person those potential deal breakers don't seem like such a big deal. I don't think you should air your dirty laundry on the first date or anything, but there should be a time before they get too attached that they come clean and give the other person a decision to stay or not.0 -
I want to know everything...and the sooner the better. Give me the opportunity (or not) to see beyond the bad stuff to the person you are. When you hide for such an extended time, it is manipulative and deceitful and says that you don't believe your partner is truly capable of seeing or loving you beyond that or your own personal self esteem is low enough you may not be a good candidate for a relationship anyway.0
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I want to know everything...and the sooner the better. Give me the opportunity (or not) to see beyond the bad stuff to the person you are. When you hide for such an extended time, it is manipulative and deceitful and says that you don't believe your partner is truly capable of seeing or loving you beyond that or your own personal self esteem is low enough you may not be a good candidate for a relationship anyway.
Well, the problem is that people judge things differently. If I were to say to you that I have a £10k debt at the moment then you could think that I'm really bad with money. But actually, I'm really GOOD with money, it's just that I've been down on my luck for a couple of years and everything that could go wrong HAS gone wrong!!
This isn't the type of conversation I would want to have with someone I just met. Not even after 4 months of dating. Sure, it will come up at some point if we fall in love an start to think of a life together, but I certainly don't feel the need to explain myself to a virtual stranger.
That's the kind of thing I mean. I dont think we have the ability to judge someone on the basis of one detail. I would have to tell you my life story for my debt seem trivial, which to me, considering my earning potential, it is!! :flowerforyou:0 -
Holding back information is just another form of lying in my eyes.
I know a first date is not the place to discuss the important issues, but potential issues should be discussed as the relationship grows. There are things that I lay on the table before a first date... I'm divorced and have sole custody. Dealbreaker for some men, not for others. The only thing I want to know about a man before the first date is if he is truly single (not separated, not married). I do try to discuss the big ones before we get too serious, so I just gently work them into the conversation and luckily I've dated men that do the same.
I know that I have listed dealbreakers here, but there are always exceptions. If the man is honest about it from the start, then I am much more open to continuing the relationship.0 -
I want to know everything...and the sooner the better. Give me the opportunity (or not) to see beyond the bad stuff to the person you are. When you hide for such an extended time, it is manipulative and deceitful and says that you don't believe your partner is truly capable of seeing or loving you beyond that or your own personal self esteem is low enough you may not be a good candidate for a relationship anyway.
Well, the problem is that people judge things differently. If I were to say to you that I have a £10k debt at the moment then you could think that I'm really bad with money. But actually, I'm really GOOD with money, it's just that I've been down on my luck for a couple of years and everything that could go wrong HAS gone wrong!!
This isn't the type of conversation I would want to have with someone I just met. Not even after 4 months of dating. Sure, it will come up at some point if we fall in love an start to think of a life together, but I certainly don't feel the need to explain myself to a virtual stranger.
That's the kind of thing I mean. I dont think we have the ability to judge someone on the basis of one detail. I would have to tell you my life story for my debt seem trivial, which to me, considering my earning potential, it is!! :flowerforyou:
See, I've been in that situation a few times (and that's why I mentioned my exceptions).
It seems the men want to explain themselves within the first 2-3 dates so that it's out there in the open. I appreciate that.
I've dated a couple guys that had great jobs but told me that they were struggling financially (divorce, medical expense, etc). They were working to rebuild their lives and I assured them that I was interested in them and not their money. We agreed to more low key, low cost dates and I had no problem with that.
I dated a man that had a DUI....he told me about it before our first date and said that it was a horrible mistake he had made and that he was very concious about his drinking habits as a result. Again, no judgement...it was what it was.
I think that I'm the same way. Because I've heard comments from so many people "I don't know how you can raise 2 kids alone"... I bring up the finance discussion early on. I explain my situation so he knows I'm not a gold digger and that I can take care of myself. I assure the man that I don't need his financial info, but that I just want him to know where I stand. I also have the talk about time and flexibility, etc.0 -
It's a slippery slope. I understand the concept but it could just as easily blow up in your face. Good relationships are based on trust and honesty, not hiding the things that might make you less attractive.
But I do believe that when you find the right person those potential deal breakers don't seem like such a big deal. I don't think you should air your dirty laundry on the first date or anything, but there should be a time before they get too attached that they come clean and give the other person a decision to stay or not.
Agreed......some things can be overlooked when you are falling for someone, but other things are totally unfair to lie about or keep to yourself.0 -
I've often shook my head in disbelief at some of the deal breakers I read on here. It gives me the impression that people aren't in relationships for love anymore. Rather, they care more about someones job, finances, religion, politics etc, than the person themselves.
I don't care so much what a man does for a living, as long as he is genuinely happy with it. Some of the most rewarding jobs do not pay very well, and that's okay. But I do believe financial, religious, and political compatibility are critical to a healthy marriage. We don't have to see eye to eye on everything, but we have to have enough in common that when compromises are necessary, they are on relatively minor things and not deeply-held principles. Love is not enough to get you through a lifetime with someone if there are very basic things you just don't agree on.0 -
I like how he rationalized that it was okay to withhold the religion detail until about 6 months by the fact that he ended up eventually marrying his wife anyway. What's to say that if he told her this on the first date they wouldn't have still ended up getting married? I wonder how many people have followed this advise where one person was religion A and the other was religion B and both refused to marry someone who would not allow their children to be raised in their religion. That's a good way to waste 6 months.
How about withholding that you are unable to have children for whatever reason while dating a childless woman in her late 30s who desperately wants to have children. Is it ethical to wait 6, 9, 12 months to "hook" her? It's entirely possible that this woman is so enamored with you that she is willing to give up on parenthood to be with you. What if you're this guy and she counters that she'll stay with you but she wants to be able to sleep around so she can still have a kid? Or to follow the author's logic, she waits another 5 months until your fully invested in her to spring this on you. Even worse, you get married and she never tells you she plans to do this, she just tells you one day that she's pregnant. Is that okay?
It just seems like as you get to know someone that things come out. You get a better sense of who the other person is and you have an obligation of seeing if your potential partner can offer you the things that are most important in your life and whether you can offer your partner the things that are most important in his/her life. Withholding information you know may be controversial is just depriving the other person of the right to make an informed decision.0 -
I think about this one a lot. I have a laundry list of things in my past and family history that a lot of women would consider deal breakers. From my experience, though, every single one is ok with it once they get to know me and realize that the experiences I've been through have caused me to take a step back, analyze myself and my life, and become a better person overall.
However, discussing these types of things on a first date might just be akin to blowing off the second.
Edit: My general policy is to answer anything honestly if questioned directly, but at least wait until the second date to open up.0 -
I dated a man for over a year before he told me the truth about his discharge from the military.... It hurt that he lied and yes he flat out lied to me about it....
I cant understand slowly telling people about certian things so as not to overwhelm them with everything but I do believe you should be honest about certain things... I have a very unusual custody arangement with my ex and when I start dating or talking with someone I explain it because some weeks I am way more avalible then others .......0 -
Like most other people have said, there needs to be a middle ground for getting these things out there between the first date and already hooked. It's only fair.
I get that everyone has different dealbreakers, however, the religion vs. finance issues seem odd to me. Knowing 100% that you are X religion and want to marry someone who values X religion enough (even if they are something different) to raise kids that way is HUGE. It's a lifelong philosophical commitment!! It annoys me that someone who is so set in their ways would even bother dating outside of their religion past a handful of dates if that's the case. Talk about selfish and wasting someone else's time!! :grumble:The author is Jewish and said he would never marry a woman who wouldn't allow their kids to be raised Jewish. But he didn't bring this up to his non-Jewish girlfriend (now his wife) until six months into their relationship when he already knew she was in love with him. She also kept from him the fact that she had a mountain of credit card debt, and he admitted that he probably wouldn't have stayed with her if he had known it sooner.
On the other hand, while I am financially responsible, and would prefer not to date someone in debt, I don't see this as so terrible. Debt sucks, but if there was a legit reason for it, or if the person can figure out how to work their way out of it, it could likely be a temporary situation and in no way becomes a moral issue the way religion would be. Just my 2 cents I guess.0 -
Like most other people have said, there needs to be a middle ground for getting these things out there between the first date and already hooked. It's only fair.
I totally agree also. But that said, I think if it is truly a dealbreaker, it doesn't matter when you reveal it.I get that everyone has different dealbreakers, however, the religion vs. finance issues seem odd to me. Knowing 100% that you are X religion and want to marry someone who values X religion enough (even if they are something different) to raise kids that way is HUGE. It's a lifelong philosophical commitment!! It annoys me that someone who is so set in their ways would even bother dating outside of their religion past a handful of dates if that's the case. Talk about selfish and wasting someone else's time!! :grumble:
Yes, this! Holding back the religion thing is far worse than holding back financial information, and I can't see how that never came up in six months of dating. I've heard Evan Katz talk about this before, and it is one of the things that really grates on me about him because I can't help but think that he must have misled her in some way. (By contrast, I can see how financial information didn't come up in six months -- it's just a way more awkward thing to bring up than religion, at least in my opinion.) I just keep waiting for him to exit the honeymoon phase bubble of his "perfect marriage." :devil:0 -
I don't think it should be a first date topic, but I do think it should be discussed WELL before the whole falling in love comes into place.0
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PJ absolutely agree!!
I'm lucky in that I'm not religious so unless you're some really off the cuff religion I won't care. I might not "convert" but I wouldn't care if you brought the kids to your place of worship or whatever or wanted to celebrate your holidays.0 -
Yep, what everyone said.0
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So, I had no idea who Evan Marc Katz was, but computer magic says he's a "relationship and dating coach"- which sounds scammy. Which would align with being scammy and and withholding information. But- who's to say when the relationship is at that point? Maybe 6 months was the right time for this guy-the OP said he knew she was in love with him at that point- but maybe he didn't know he was in love with her?
Why talk about raising kids if you are 2-3 months into a relationship (before being hooked) and don't know if the relationship has that kind of potential? That's opening a expectation laden booby trapped door.
It's all issue dependent, too. Everybody has their stuff, hopefully we learn by trial and error when it's socially acceptable to talk about it. If we are douches and do it in a douchey way, we end up with lame people who will accept that. It sounds like the "dating and relationship" coach might be a ****, but his timing was right for his situation- she married him anyway. It might seem unethical to observers, but I think we all still have choices and can say no despite being in love.0 -
But I do believe financial, religious, and political compatibility are critical to a healthy marriage. We don't have to see eye to eye on everything, but we have to have enough in common that when compromises are necessary, they are on relatively minor things and not deeply-held principles. Love is not enough to get you through a lifetime with someone if there are very basic things you just don't agree on.
I agree that compatibility is crucial. However, Religion, politics and finances are all very subjective. It really does depend how strongly someone views these subjects. I wouldnt discount someone that is a different religion to me because I'm not very religious. However, if they are a staunch believer then they might discount me.
Basically, subjects like this come up when you're getting to know someone. Values and beliefs and standards are pretty blatant in every day discussions. You can't really 'hide' from your beliefs.
So, what i'm trying to say is, on paper, I am a Catholic, but in practice I really dont care if you are religious or not. On paper I'm a socialist, but I really dont care if you lean to the right, because I probably lean to the right on some issues too!! On paper, I'm in debt, but that debt will never be your problem and I'm bound to get out of it in the next few months.
So, all those 'dealbreakers' are no longer an issue once you get to know me :bigsmile:0 -
I like how he rationalized that it was okay to withhold the religion detail until about 6 months by the fact that he ended up eventually marrying his wife anyway. What's to say that if he told her this on the first date they wouldn't have still ended up getting married? I wonder how many people have followed this advise where one person was religion A and the other was religion B and both refused to marry someone who would not allow their children to be raised in their religion. That's a good way to waste 6 months.
How about withholding that you are unable to have children for whatever reason while dating a childless woman in her late 30s who desperately wants to have children. Is it ethical to wait 6, 9, 12 months to "hook" her? It's entirely possible that this woman is so enamored with you that she is willing to give up on parenthood to be with you. What if you're this guy and she counters that she'll stay with you but she wants to be able to sleep around so she can still have a kid? Or to follow the author's logic, she waits another 5 months until your fully invested in her to spring this on you. Even worse, you get married and she never tells you she plans to do this, she just tells you one day that she's pregnant. Is that okay?
It just seems like as you get to know someone that things come out. You get a better sense of who the other person is and you have an obligation of seeing if your potential partner can offer you the things that are most important in your life and whether you can offer your partner the things that are most important in his/her life. Withholding information you know may be controversial is just depriving the other person of the right to make an informed decision.
What strikes me as particularly duplicitous about it is that if you "hook" someone and then drop a bomb on them like "oh by the way, our kids have to be Jewish," and they say "yeah, I'm not down with forcing YOUR religion on OUR kids," then you get to put all the blame on them for the relationship coming to an end.0 -
I like how he rationalized that it was okay to withhold the religion detail until about 6 months by the fact that he ended up eventually marrying his wife anyway. What's to say that if he told her this on the first date they wouldn't have still ended up getting married? I wonder how many people have followed this advise where one person was religion A and the other was religion B and both refused to marry someone who would not allow their children to be raised in their religion. That's a good way to waste 6 months.
How about withholding that you are unable to have children for whatever reason while dating a childless woman in her late 30s who desperately wants to have children. Is it ethical to wait 6, 9, 12 months to "hook" her? It's entirely possible that this woman is so enamored with you that she is willing to give up on parenthood to be with you. What if you're this guy and she counters that she'll stay with you but she wants to be able to sleep around so she can still have a kid? Or to follow the author's logic, she waits another 5 months until your fully invested in her to spring this on you. Even worse, you get married and she never tells you she plans to do this, she just tells you one day that she's pregnant. Is that okay?
It just seems like as you get to know someone that things come out. You get a better sense of who the other person is and you have an obligation of seeing if your potential partner can offer you the things that are most important in your life and whether you can offer your partner the things that are most important in his/her life. Withholding information you know may be controversial is just depriving the other person of the right to make an informed decision.
What strikes me as particularly duplicitous about it is that if you "hook" someone and then drop a bomb on them like "oh by the way, our kids have to be Jewish," and they say "yeah, I'm not down with forcing YOUR religion on OUR kids," then you get to put all the blame on them for the relationship coming to an end.
I'm not sure that's any different from any other break up. Most stories I hear have the break up being the result of the other persons actions/inactions/behaviors, etc.0 -
I agree with what most people said.
To me an omission of truth is the same as lying.
Try dating a guy for 9 months and finding out he had 200 grand of debt from a gambling addiction.. feels pretty crappy
I think there is a time and place, some need to be addressed sooner than others.....
Agree with Mud, I want to know before meeting if you are actually single or divorced - seperated men I won't even consider.0 -
If a dealbreaker topic comes up during conversation and you ignore the issue or outright lie YOU ARE A DOUCHE! That's just wrong, IMO :noway:0
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Actual honest to goodness potential dealbreakers should definitely be brought up in the first little while. Like wanting/not wanting kids, addictions, when religion is really important etc. No ecuses, it's never ok not to. That person where one spouse wants kids and the other doesn't and only one knows, that is awful, that is not a good person.
Lying is never acceptable.
If the person is reasonable they'll listen and understand an explaination, like yes I have X in debt but it was because of Y and it's undercontrol and being paid off. And will never affect you ie you never have to put towards it etc. Or no I can't have kids, but I'm ok with adoption/donor. Or not.
As other posters have said, good relationships are built on trust and honesty. Not lies and deceit.0 -
This is a little off-topic, but I've been told that if a guy asks you about your last relationship (or any of your exes) on a first date, to just tell him you don't think that is appropriate conversation for a first date. But doesn't that kind of suggest that you've got a skeleton or two in the closet (or at least that you're kind of uptight)?
I've only dated one guy who was genuinely not a good guy and with whom things did not end well, so I have no problem talking about my past relationships. I have never done anything to be ashamed of, nor am I so jaded by other guys that I'm going to sit there and bash men for half an hour in answer to a question about an ex. So I don't really hesitate if a guy asks. Women are just always taught that it's bad form to talk about exes on the first date.0 -
Agree with Mud, I want to know before meeting if you are actually single or divorced - seperated men I won't even consider.
This information is critical. But I am shocked at how many men will admit to being married with no plans of getting divorced, yet they still want to date other women.
ETA: One of my mom's friends, who is in her 40s and never married, joined Match.com and got a message from a married man who was upfront that he is not ever going to divorce his wife, but he doesn't love her and is looking for a physical relationship outside of their marriage. And he promised that his wife was not the type of woman to show up at a mistress's house with a shotgun. Charming, right?0 -
I don't care so much what a man does for a living, as long as he is genuinely happy with it. Some of the most rewarding jobs do not pay very well, and that's okay. But I do believe financial, religious, and political compatibility are critical to a healthy marriage. We don't have to see eye to eye on everything, but we have to have enough in common that when compromises are necessary, they are on relatively minor things and not deeply-held principles. Love is not enough to get you through a lifetime with someone if there are very basic things you just don't agree on.
Absolutely agree with all this re: compatability. Relationships are hard enough, I don't want to start out being incompatible in so many ways.0 -
This is a little off-topic, but I've been told that if a guy asks you about your last relationship (or any of your exes) on a first date, to just tell him you don't think that is appropriate conversation for a first date. But doesn't that kind of suggest that you've got a skeleton or two in the closet (or at least that you're kind of uptight)?
I've only dated one guy who was genuinely not a good guy and with whom things did not end well, so I have no problem talking about my past relationships. I have never done anything to be ashamed of, nor am I so jaded by other guys that I'm going to sit there and bash men for half an hour in answer to a question about an ex. So I don't really hesitate if a guy asks. Women are just always taught that it's bad form to talk about exes on the first date.
I was never taught this, but I learned it because it NEVER turns out well. And there is absolutely no need to discuss it - if it provided any value to our discussion, I might do so (but I can't see how it would). I'm not uptight nor do I have skeletons, but I also want to move forward and focus on the man I'm with rather than rehash my past love/dating/sex life. It is just not a comfortable conversation, and I don't care to know about the man's past either (I would want to know if he had been married), it doesn't do me any good or tell me anything about him.0 -
This is a little off-topic, but I've been told that if a guy asks you about your last relationship (or any of your exes) on a first date, to just tell him you don't think that is appropriate conversation for a first date. But doesn't that kind of suggest that you've got a skeleton or two in the closet (or at least that you're kind of uptight)?
I've only dated one guy who was genuinely not a good guy and with whom things did not end well, so I have no problem talking about my past relationships. I have never done anything to be ashamed of, nor am I so jaded by other guys that I'm going to sit there and bash men for half an hour in answer to a question about an ex. So I don't really hesitate if a guy asks. Women are just always taught that it's bad form to talk about exes on the first date.
I was never taught this, but I learned it because it NEVER turns out well. And there is absolutely no need to discuss it - if it provided any value to our discussion, I might do so (but I can't see how it would). I'm not uptight nor do I have skeletons, but I also want to move forward and focus on the man I'm with rather than rehash my past love/dating/sex life. It is just not a comfortable conversation, and I don't care to know about the man's past either (I would want to know if he had been married), it doesn't do me any good or tell me anything about him.
With my last ex bf, I never asked him why his relationship went sour, WRONG IDEA! I mean, it is possible the man will still lie to you, or make it a lot less dramatic than it may have been as I believe a lot of times you protray yourself as the victim even if you aren't, but you should be able to get a sense?? My ex bf's wife left him becuase he racked up gambling debt, they remortaged their house and he did it again. He was sitting at about 200 grand when we broke up. UGH!!! So not only the debt but the addiction!
In one of Steve Harvey's books it actually shows you how to ask a question 3 times to 'corner' them into giving you the truth with their answer. Was interesting.
I personally have no problem talking about my ex (kid's dad). He was an alcoholic, which I was willing to deal with until he would vanish for weeks at a time. First it was fear, then anger, then resentment, etc. I finally left after 8 + years.
But to go a bit more off topic - when is appropriate then to have the ex talk? How do you even bring such a topic up? Usually the men I have dated blab it all out, but the one I have been on 2 dates with now hasn't said a thing. I am sure he won't be the only one. Thoughts?0 -
To be absolutely honest, I don't care to hear about a man's ex's. It's his past and I want to move towards the future. Understandably, most men ask about my ex-husband either prior to or during the first date. I have sole custody, he lives 600 miles away. Most men will ask about his role in their life. Most single, never married, men will ask why the marriage ended. I don't mind explaining if it puts their mind at ease.
As the relationship moves forward, I am interested in knowing more about the ex-wife only if there are kids involved. I don't want his kids to suffer for our relationship and I don't want to step on her toes. If there are no kids, I don't ask.0 -
To be absolutely honest, I don't care to hear about a man's ex's. It's his past and I want to move towards the future. Understandably, most men ask about my ex-husband either prior to or during the first date. I have sole custody, he lives 600 miles away. Most men will ask about his role in their life. Most single, never married, men will ask why the marriage ended. I don't mind explaining if it puts their mind at ease.
As the relationship moves forward, I am interested in knowing more about the ex-wife only if there are kids involved. I don't want his kids to suffer for our relationship and I don't want to step on her toes. If there are no kids, I don't ask.
Oh yeah, if there are kids I understand wanting to know a little. But I'm single, no kids - so you get no information 0
