SL 5X5 vs. Allpro, hybrid?
The_Enginerd
Posts: 3,982 Member
SL 5x5 is quite popular, and I found the Allpro program through my own web search and saw Sarah has been recommending it to other posters. I like the Allpro program better with doing more exercises, but the rep ranges seem in the higher range than is usually preferred. Would there be any issue with doing a hybrid program that is the Allpro program, but with heavier weights and lower reps, to concentrate more on strength versus hypertrophy? Would a different program altogether be better if that is my goal?
Background: I'm am fairly new to seriously strength training. I did machine work was I was losing weight, but I didn't follow a program and wasn't concentrated on really pushing myself and gaining strength. Currently doing a slow bulk and eating at a slight (100-200) calorie surplus.
Background: I'm am fairly new to seriously strength training. I did machine work was I was losing weight, but I didn't follow a program and wasn't concentrated on really pushing myself and gaining strength. Currently doing a slow bulk and eating at a slight (100-200) calorie surplus.
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Tagging.
I have some thoughts on this but will wait until I am more alert to get them down.
However, one question first, how long have you been lifting for? What has your routine been (sets/reps/type of split/type of lifts)?0 -
I have been lifting more seriously with free weights for a little over two months. Prior to that I did machine work for a couple of years, but it wasn't with any seriousness and I wasn't progressing on weights, so I don't know if I would even really count that.
I have been doing 5x5 and doing a whole body workout 3 times a week consisting of the following exercises:
Squats
Standard Deadlifts
Bench Press
Pull-ups (Assisted at this point)
Dips
Rows
OHP
Calf Raises (5x10)
I was doing all exercises 3 times a week. I have recently cut back to twice a week for the pull-up/dips and thinking about doing it for deadlifts because as I have been upping the weight, it feels harder to recover between sessions. I have also been struggling to progress and increase weight on my squats.
I notice Allpro also includes curls, not sure if I should add these given what I am doing.0 -
I'm very interested in answers to questions like these. I'm currently doing stronglifts (same story, first programme of serious lifting after faffing around with bodybuilder style training and before that lifting with too light weights at a deficit). So I'm kind of scouting around for what to move on to after I get to the end of week 12 of stronglifts0
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I have been lifting more seriously with free weights for a little over two months. Prior to that I did machine work for a couple of years, but it wasn't with any seriousness and I wasn't progressing on weights, so I don't know if I would even really count that.
I have been doing 5x5 and doing a whole body workout 3 times a week consisting of the following exercises:
Squats
Standard Deadlifts
Bench Press
Pull-ups (Assisted at this point)
Dips
Rows
OHP
Calf Raises (5x10)
I was doing all exercises 3 times a week. I have recently cut back to twice a week for the pull-up/dips and thinking about doing it for deadlifts because as I have been upping the weight, it feels harder to recover between sessions. I have also been struggling to progress and increase weight on my squats.
I notice Allpro also includes curls, not sure if I should add these given what I am doing.
How long does the above take you and how much rest are you taking between sets for the barbell work?0 -
what sort of rep range is this allpro routine?
Personally, I think the 8-10rep range is better suited to beginners initially than 5x5. You don't really NEED to work up to that intensity as a beginner to make strength gains anyway. Get more practice that way too. 5 rep sets are fine for strength gains but as a beginner you will actually find that most trainers will recommend higher rep ranges and you can decrease them as your form improves and you feel comfortable to up the weights further. An extreme example would be going for a 1rm on your first day, no real point. I hope that makese sense, I'm tired
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Tagging to follow thread.0
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Would you be willing to try the program as written first, and then later make tweaks if necessary?0
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what sort of rep range is this allpro routine?
Personally, I think the 8-10rep range is better suited to beginners initially than 5x5. You don't really NEED to work up to that intensity as a beginner to make strength gains anyway. Get more practice that way too. 5 rep sets are fine for strength gains but as a beginner you will actually find that most trainers will recommend higher rep ranges and you can decrease them as your form improves and you feel comfortable to up the weights further. An extreme example would be going for a 1rm on your first day, no real point. I hope that makese sense, I'm tired
^^thanks, you saved me the time to write my thoughts up as I agree.
There is also the argument that 5 x 5 is not really that different to 4 x 8. It is 25 reps compared to 24. However, you can load the bar a bit more on 5 x 5 as you are doing fewer reps per set...BUT, it is kind of irrelevant while still learning iifts.
The basics of AllPro is:
These are the seven exercises you will be starting with.
Squats
Bench Presses
Bent-Over Rows
Overhead Barbell Presses
Stiff-Legged Deadlifts
Barbell Curls
Calf Raises
You will be running this program on a five week cycle as follows:
The first week do all 4 sets for 8 reps.
The second week do all 4 sets for 9 reps.
The third week do all 4 sets for 10 reps.
The fourth week do all 4 sets for 11 reps.
The fifth week do all 4 sets for 12 reps.
If you got all of the required reps on the fifth week then increase the weight by 10%
I actually prefer this for beginners for the reasons you mention, as well as it is more rounded imo.0 -
SideSteel and I had a brief chat but want to nerd out in a bit more detail re the specific recommendation based on your goals as there are pro's and con's of both, albeit not that extreme as we are not talking about extreme differences in sets/reps.
One quick question, how secure are you with your form on the compounds?0 -
I take 60-90 seconds between sets, and the above takes me 60-70 minutes.I have been lifting more seriously with free weights for a little over two months. Prior to that I did machine work for a couple of years, but it wasn't with any seriousness and I wasn't progressing on weights, so I don't know if I would even really count that.
I have been doing 5x5 and doing a whole body workout 3 times a week consisting of the following exercises:
Squats
Standard Deadlifts
Bench Press
Pull-ups (Assisted at this point)
Dips
Rows
OHP
Calf Raises (5x10)
I was doing all exercises 3 times a week. I have recently cut back to twice a week for the pull-up/dips and thinking about doing it for deadlifts because as I have been upping the weight, it feels harder to recover between sessions. I have also been struggling to progress and increase weight on my squats.
I notice Allpro also includes curls, not sure if I should add these given what I am doing.
How long does the above take you and how much rest are you taking between sets for the barbell work?0 -
Yes I would. I would like to include accessory work at the end for certain exercises I like if they are not included in the program and they would not be a detriment (dips/pull ups/calf raises in particular I am fond of).Would you be willing to try the program as written first, and then later make tweaks if necessary?0 -
I feel pretty secure on my form and have concentrated on watching my form as my weight has increased, including taping myself and watching it. If I felt my form was breaking, I deloaded. The squat in particular was one of these lifts. I decreased my weight on this and concentrated on form when I noticed I was not going low enough and rounding my back on the lower part of the lift as I struggled to get it up.SideSteel and I had a brief chat but want to nerd out in a bit more detail re the specific recommendation based on your goals as there are pro's and con's of both, albeit not that extreme as we are not talking about extreme differences in sets/reps.
One quick question, how secure are you with your form on the compounds?
I have also looked at the SS Practical Programming Novice Program, and noticed it uses the 5 rep range. When I first started a couple months ago, I researched form and just starting doing the lifts in the typical 3x10 rep range I had been using previously. I moved to the 5x5 rep range after a couple of weeks when I felt more comfortable with the lifts because 5 reps seemed to be a more common rep range for most programs. I haven't really followed any sort of program at this point, just done my own thing, but now that I am trying to take this more seriously I am looking into programs. The common things I am seeing in all of those I have researched is:
1) Lift 3 days a week, rest days in between
2) Move weight up periodically until you fail, repeat/deload as necessary when you fail.
3) 5 rep range (except for Allpro)
4) Built on the basic compound lifts (squats, deadlifts, bench, OHP, row)
With all the differences between them, it does make me wonder how much it really matters that you follow a program versus tweaking/hybridizing to build your own that you like and that meets your goals , which is where this question comes from.0 -
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Curious as well!0
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Tagging to read as well.0
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Taggin' as in the boat....0
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After seeing that program I would recommend that over SL for beginners for sure. Just as much practice at the big lifts and less likely to injure yourself with lower weights.0
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After seeing that program I would recommend that over SL for beginners for sure. Just as much practice at the big lifts and less likely to injure yourself with lower weights.
I still think this is context dependent and there might be some need to clarify what we call a "beginner"
Definitely agree with higher volume and lower loads for motor learning but not necessarily in a higher rep-per-set model as that might not be ideal for other reasons.
I have more to say on this but I want to organize my thoughts further.0 -
The folks at my dojo I've done programming for I'd do a 5x5 and then something like widow makers or 8-12 rep sets after. It worked well but they were young guys and recovered fast.0
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Bumping in case this was forgotten
Glad to see others tagging and some good discussion from this. I don't feel like as much of a doofus for asking as I tend to over research and over think these things.
I just looked up widow makers. I can see how they got their name...The folks at my dojo I've done programming for I'd do a 5x5 and then something like widow makers or 8-12 rep sets after. It worked well but they were young guys and recovered fast.
I'm a bit older. I'm 32, male, 5'10.5", 170 lbs, FWIW..0 -
After seeing that program I would recommend that over SL for beginners for sure. Just as much practice at the big lifts and less likely to injure yourself with lower weights.
I still think this is context dependent and there might be some need to clarify what we call a "beginner"
Definitely agree with higher volume and lower loads for motor learning but not necessarily in a higher rep-per-set model as that might not be ideal for other reasons.
I have more to say on this but I want to organize my thoughts further.
I was thinking of a beginner as someone new to strength training. Less than 3 months or so experience.
Don't get me wrong, the heavier stuff is definitely a good idea for LBM retention in a deficit but I think beginners need to earn the right to progress to that.0 -
96 Hour bump. Wasn't sure if you two had had a chance to get together to geek it out.0
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96 Hour bump. Wasn't sure if you two had had a chance to get together to geek it out.
Thanks. We will respond today as we did discuss - I just want to double check the final recommendation.0 -
In to read.0
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Sorry for the delay with this.
So, we would recommend a modified 5 x 5 program, which incorporates the accessory lifts you mentioned you liked. The progression for the compounds would follow Stronglifts. It is 3 x a week and full body so you would need a rest in between the workouts.
Workout 1:
Squat 5 x 5
Bench 5 x 5
Row 5 x 5
Pull ups 3 x 8 – 12
Calves 3 x 8 - 12
Workout 2:
Deads 3 x 5
Bench 3 x 5
OHP 3 x 5
Dips 3 x 8 - 12
Pull ups 3 x 8 – 12
Curls 3 x 8 – 12
Workout 3:
Squat 5 x 5
OHP 5 x 5
Row 5 x 5
Pull ups 3 x 8 – 12
Calves 3 x 8 – 12
If you find you are stalling, even after deloading, or are finding that it takes too long as the lifts get heavier and therefore requires more rest time between sets, then drop all sets to 3 x 5.
You also should follow the warm ups for the compounds as laid out in SL (not required on the other lifts).0 -
Thank you Sara and SS :flowerforyou: I wish I had a way to send you cases of ice cream for all the advice you give through this group.
I had one quick question:
On dips, I am not sure I can 3x8-12 at this point. I may end up failing to get up to 8 on the 2nd and 3rd reps. Should I go as high as I can with reps at this point (I would probably end up at 8,6,5 at body weight) or do assisted dips so I can hit 3x8-12?
ETA: starting weight for this program at my current working weights?0 -
For the dips - just do as many as you can.
For the starting weight, do you know your 1RM (or 5RM)?0 -
Yes, or pretty close, since I have failed (either break form or fail to complete) on all of the lifts at some point. Current stats below if that helps:
5x5 Max:
Bench: 140
Squat: 160 :ohwell:
Dead Lift: 190 (225 when done as 1x5)
OHP: 80
Row: 1250 -
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