Smith machine?
Replies
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OP: please do lobby for a cage or squat rack. I know you said you didn't think they'd listen to you. I've been pushing for one at my gym and have not gotten anywhere, but here's the thing: if nobody says anything, they won't change. And if only one person says anything, that one person looks like an outlier. Chances are, you won't be the first person to ask and who knows how many people it takes to get them to take action?
We already bought a cage so we are going to cancel our family membership when school starts in Aug. we are keeping a student membership for our son that's almost $40 a month less than what we currently pay. If they ask why we are canceling I will be sure to tell them0 -
This all great info. Thanks for the read, everyone who posted solid advice! I have one of those dual axis smith machines at my gym and tend to use that for deadlifts and squats and certain press variations. I know it's far superior to a reg smith machine since it moves front to back as well, but perhaps I'll move to power rack since I'm not as new at these lifts now and I think my form is pretty decent. I started out on this dual axis smith because it was much less intimidating. Just havent made the switch.
Anyone have thoughts on this? Is the difference just pretty much balance and stabalizer muscles not being worked with the machine I'm currently on? I dont think my form is really suffering on any of my lifts because I'm not using a power rack. I do have full range of motion. If anything I think it's helped me focus on form by being stablized side to side.....the main reason I chose to start out on that rack instead. But I have been relying on it for about a year now. Perhaps I should move on
The dual axis unit at my gym won't allow the bar to go all the way down to the floor as if there were 45lbs plates on the end. So you are getting an advantage of having the bar3-4" higher off the floor during deads. So that's why I won't use this machine for deadlifts.0 -
This all great info. Thanks for the read, everyone who posted solid advice! I have one of those dual axis smith machines at my gym and tend to use that for deadlifts and squats and certain press variations. I know it's far superior to a reg smith machine since it moves front to back as well, but perhaps I'll move to power rack since I'm not as new at these lifts now and I think my form is pretty decent. I started out on this dual axis smith because it was much less intimidating. Just havent made the switch.
Anyone have thoughts on this? Is the difference just pretty much balance and stabalizer muscles not being worked with the machine I'm currently on? I dont think my form is really suffering on any of my lifts because I'm not using a power rack. I do have full range of motion. If anything I think it's helped me focus on form by being stablized side to side.....the main reason I chose to start out on that rack instead. But I have been relying on it for about a year now. Perhaps I should move on
The stabilizing aspect of free weights can be good or bad, depending on how you look at it.
On one hand having to stabilize a weight in 3-dimensional space incorporates more muscles, and usually will have more carry-over to real world activities. However, as in your example when you take spinal stability out of a squat, this allows you to place a higher load on the target muscles. Watch someone do a set of squats close to failure, their core gives way before the legs have taken all they can handle.0 -
Thanks Sara. Any benefit to doing both? If I am doing AllPro, can/should I do a set of Leg Press too, in addition to squats?.
Squats usually > Leg Press as a 'main lift', but leg presses have their place."machines are evil" assumption.
Also, can i use the leg press to do a calf-raise, since I don't have a calf raise machine?
Depending on goals/weak points, I would think your time better spent doing other accessories if you have extra time. However, the AllPro routine is pretty well rounded so I do not think they need to be added just for the sake of it.0 -
Thanks Sara.0
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My Y has a dual axis squat rack. Nothing wrong with this.
Having done real squats and then playing with the Max Rack at the Y, I won't be using the Y much anymore. The feel of it is just so wrong for me. There is no side to side or rotational movement. It just doesn't feel right. I dunno. If you're never going to do real free bar squats it might be okay, as you won't be using those stabalizers much anyway.
If you do go with the max rack at the Y then you'll need to remember that they're not bar squats and need to drop your weight or risk the possibility of injury. I'm not saying you will get injured, but there would be a greater chance.
If you're at the YMCA then they should have barbell bench, max rack squats*, max rack overhead press* (or dumbbell overhead press, which is what I do), and deadlifts. Most YMCA's will have a free olympic barbell tucked in a corner you can pull out for deads.
*Only if you're willing to use the max rack.0 -
My Y has a dual axis squat rack. Nothing wrong with this.
Having done real squats and then playing with the Max Rack at the Y, I won't be using the Y much anymore. The feel of it is just so wrong for me. There is no side to side or rotational movement. It just doesn't feel right. I dunno. If you're never going to do real free bar squats it might be okay, as you won't be using those stabalizers much anyway.
If you do go with the max rack at the Y then you'll need to remember that they're not bar squats and need to drop your weight or risk the possibility of injury. I'm not saying you will get injured, but there would be a greater chance.
If you're at the YMCA then they should have barbell bench, max rack squats*, max rack overhead press* (or dumbbell overhead press, which is what I do), and deadlifts. Most YMCA's will have a free olympic barbell tucked in a corner you can pull out for deads.
*Only if you're willing to use the max rack.
As said, I've done both free weight squats and this machine. I don't rock that much side to side. When you unrack the bar, you're only supposed to walk it out maybe 1-2 steps. The rotational is a small issue as I tend to rotate a little on the free squat.
I don't why this machine would be more unsafe than a true free weight squat. Lower the weights or risk injury? Care to explain why that would be required?
I do deads free weight for reasons I've stated before.0 -
As said, I've done both free weight squats and this machine. I don't rock that much side to side. When you unrack the bar, you're only supposed to walk it out maybe 1-2 steps. The rotational is a small issue as I tend to rotate a little on the free squat.
I don't why this machine would be more unsafe than a true free weight squat. Lower the weights or risk injury? Care to explain why that would be required?
I do deads free weight for reasons I've stated before.
Because it's basically a different exercise. There are stabilizer muscles you're not engaging as much in the max rack as you would with free weights. At least that's my personal experience. I do sway a bit from side to side. I noticed that movement was locked down the moment I put the weight on my shoulders. As such, there are stabilizers you're not really using and/or you're able to lift heavier weights artificially because you have certain angles you can push against to force the bar up. I doubt you'd have to drop down too far, but there is a difference.0 -
As said, I've done both free weight squats and this machine. I don't rock that much side to side. When you unrack the bar, you're only supposed to walk it out maybe 1-2 steps. The rotational is a small issue as I tend to rotate a little on the free squat.
I don't why this machine would be more unsafe than a true free weight squat. Lower the weights or risk injury? Care to explain why that would be required?
I do deads free weight for reasons I've stated before.
Because it's basically a different exercise. There are stabilizer muscles you're not engaging as much in the max rack as you would with free weights. At least that's my personal experience. I do sway a bit from side to side. I noticed that movement was locked down the moment I put the weight on my shoulders. As such, there are stabilizers you're not really using and/or you're able to lift heavier weights artificially because you have certain angles you can push against to force the bar up. I doubt you'd have to drop down too far, but there is a difference.
You use quite a bit of stabilizers to keep from falling back and more importantly falling forward. The side to side stabilizers are minimal IMHO. There is a lot of free movement in your feet/legs that are still being used for stabilizing in all 3 axis. IMHO, keeping your knees back, having a good knee angle and sitting down on your squat is more important than the side to side / rotational aspects.
As said, I've lifted 315lbs for reps free weight and did 335lbs yesterday on this machine. I've also powerlifted in competitions before. it's not exactly the same but it's very, very close.
If the side to side is an issue, take a video of your heavy squat and post it. I'd gather you might be wasting energy by moving the weight around so much that you're feeling a hindrance with the side to side motion
With that said, if you have the option of doing the squat free weight, by all means do so. I probably should but there's no extra bars a my Y (although I've asked for them). So I'd have to steal one from one of the benches. And all the little broscience guys love their benches0 -
To the OP, the squat rack should be set up to allow you to de-load the weight safely by leaning forward onto the pins. You really shouldn't be doing weights that would result in failure until you perfect your form and are more comfortable with the movement. That is probably a long way down the road.
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So, I should be facing the rack? I haven't used it for squats but when I have used it I had my back to it. You would think one of the employees would have said something to me.
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Sorry for missing this Not sure if someone else answered, but yes you should be facing the rack and still inside the rack while lifting. If you fail you should be able to pitch forward to put the bar on the pins. You never want to unload a squat bar stepping backwards. You want to be able to see the pins you are putting the bar on.0 -
With that said, if you have the option of doing the squat free weight, by all means do so. I probably should but there's no extra bars a my Y (although I've asked for them). So I'd have to steal one from one of the benches. And all the little broscience guys love their benches
Getting the Y to make any sort of change in the weight room in the right direction would require an act of god. They're all about insurance and creating a "family" environment. I'm not bad mouthing them. They have a good family friendly environment. Anybody can walk in, get shown around and start lifting with what's there. But there are certain things you just don't have available in "family friendly".
Cheers.0 -
I agree. But at the same time, I don't know how a few extra bars would detract from the family theme of the place. I already pound the floor with my deads (with a bar I steal from the benches). I feel guilty about that but I need to dead.
A few extra bars would cost a lot less than the 5 Chuck Norris Total Gym machines that the Y bought recently. ugh0 -
I agree. But at the same time, I don't know how a few extra bars would detract from the family theme of the place. I already pound the floor with my deads (with a bar I steal from the benches). I feel guilty about that but I need to dead.
A few extra bars would cost a lot less than the 5 Chuck Norris Total Gym machines that the Y bought recently. ugh
Let's not let this turn into a "kids and bars--do they go together" discussion!
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I agree. But at the same time, I don't know how a few extra bars would detract from the family theme of the place. I already pound the floor with my deads (with a bar I steal from the benches). I feel guilty about that but I need to dead.
A few extra bars would cost a lot less than the 5 Chuck Norris Total Gym machines that the Y bought recently. ugh
Insurance and injury issues for the most part. They won't even let me do exercises in socks in a controlled spot.
The chuck norris total gym doesn't use any heavy plates you might hurt yourself with. /s
...and $600x5=$3,000 is rather cheap compared to an insurance spike.0 -
This all great info. Thanks for the read, everyone who posted solid advice! I have one of those dual axis smith machines at my gym and tend to use that for deadlifts and squats and certain press variations. I know it's far superior to a reg smith machine since it moves front to back as well, but perhaps I'll move to power rack since I'm not as new at these lifts now and I think my form is pretty decent. I started out on this dual axis smith because it was much less intimidating. Just havent made the switch.
Anyone have thoughts on this? Is the difference just pretty much balance and stabalizer muscles not being worked with the machine I'm currently on? I dont think my form is really suffering on any of my lifts because I'm not using a power rack. I do have full range of motion. If anything I think it's helped me focus on form by being stablized side to side.....the main reason I chose to start out on that rack instead. But I have been relying on it for about a year now. Perhaps I should move on
If you have a power cage or squat rack, I would move to squatting in those rather than the dual axis smith. I would also do free weight deads.0 -
This all great info. Thanks for the read, everyone who posted solid advice! I have one of those dual axis smith machines at my gym and tend to use that for deadlifts and squats and certain press variations. I know it's far superior to a reg smith machine since it moves front to back as well, but perhaps I'll move to power rack since I'm not as new at these lifts now and I think my form is pretty decent. I started out on this dual axis smith because it was much less intimidating. Just havent made the switch.
Anyone have thoughts on this? Is the difference just pretty much balance and stabalizer muscles not being worked with the machine I'm currently on? I dont think my form is really suffering on any of my lifts because I'm not using a power rack. I do have full range of motion. If anything I think it's helped me focus on form by being stablized side to side.....the main reason I chose to start out on that rack instead. But I have been relying on it for about a year now. Perhaps I should move on
The dual axis unit at my gym won't allow the bar to go all the way down to the floor as if there were 45lbs plates on the end. So you are getting an advantage of having the bar3-4" higher off the floor during deads. So that's why I won't use this machine for deadlifts.
Yes, this is true. When doing deads the bar is raised a few inches, so I do see your point. I'm gonna go ahead and make the change. I guess the in theory, the machine I'm currently using isnt really hurting me, but it's also not really helping as much as it could be. Thanks0 -
Thanks Sara. Any benefit to doing both? If I am doing AllPro, can/should I do a set of Leg Press too, in addition to squats?.
Squats usually > Leg Press as a 'main lift', but leg presses have their place."machines are evil" assumption.
Also, can i use the leg press to do a calf-raise, since I don't have a calf raise machine?
I would prefer the leg press over DB/plate variants since grip fatigue is not an issue with a leg press. Holding DB's you may run into a problem in that your grip can become fatigued before you calves do. This may not be an issue with some people but it certainly is for others.
Yeah, I think of my calf raises as a sort of standing farmer's walk. The reason I like doing them "free style" rather than on a leg press machine is because free calf raises train balance. Though I think I've seen a dude at my gym do calf raises with a barbell on his back, too.
Yep. Nothing wrong with any of the above, it just depends on goals really. For example one could make the argument that you could get better calf training by training calves without training balance because you could arguably load heavier/increase intensity by not having to worry about balance.
Now that doesn't make one approach right and another wrong -- they are different approaches and which one you choose should be goal dependent.
Agreed. They are just tools. Machines have a place in lifting because they allow you to safely push yourself to failure. As a solo lifter, I could not do my HIT routines without machines. I seriously would like to see someone rack up 500 lbs of weight and attempt to squat to failure with no spotter. You can get away with doing stuff like that when you aren't lifting that much weight, but if you start dropping several hundred lbs, you are going to badly hurt yourself.
It's just a tool. Use it if it works for you.0 -
Thanks Sara. Any benefit to doing both? If I am doing AllPro, can/should I do a set of Leg Press too, in addition to squats?.
Squats usually > Leg Press as a 'main lift', but leg presses have their place."machines are evil" assumption.
Also, can i use the leg press to do a calf-raise, since I don't have a calf raise machine?
I would prefer the leg press over DB/plate variants since grip fatigue is not an issue with a leg press. Holding DB's you may run into a problem in that your grip can become fatigued before you calves do. This may not be an issue with some people but it certainly is for others.
Yeah, I think of my calf raises as a sort of standing farmer's walk. The reason I like doing them "free style" rather than on a leg press machine is because free calf raises train balance. Though I think I've seen a dude at my gym do calf raises with a barbell on his back, too.
Yep. Nothing wrong with any of the above, it just depends on goals really. For example one could make the argument that you could get better calf training by training calves without training balance because you could arguably load heavier/increase intensity by not having to worry about balance.
Now that doesn't make one approach right and another wrong -- they are different approaches and which one you choose should be goal dependent.
Agreed. They are just tools. Machines have a place in lifting because they allow you to safely push yourself to failure. As a solo lifter, I could not do my HIT routines without machines. I seriously would like to see someone rack up 500 lbs of weight and attempt to squat to failure with no spotter. You can get away with doing stuff like that when you aren't lifting that much weight, but if you start dropping several hundred lbs, you are going to badly hurt yourself.
It's just a tool. Use it if it works for you.
The amount is relative to the person. ^^that is assuming that you do not have a power cage or squat rack.0 -
Failure with a particular amount of weight is relative to the person, but 500lbs falling on you vs. 100lbs is function of Mass * Acceleration, which is relative to the parameters you plug into that equation. I know power racks should prevent that problem in theory, but I frankly don't want to chance an injury. It's a risk vs. reward thing. I am making great gains using machines, so why bother risking injury?0
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^^I get that 500lb is different to 100lb.
People have different levels on risk v reward and the perceived risk and the perceived reward. I squat in a cage and, as long as I have my safety bars, feel that the risk of injury is no greater than, and possibly less then, using a machine.0
This discussion has been closed.