Any point doing volume work in a deficit?

tomcornhole
tomcornhole Posts: 1,084 Member
So I just finished my 5/3/1 week with OHP. Set a new PR and then started the Boring But Big (BBB) work. As I'm monstering through the 5x10's, I'm wondering what the point of all this volume is while in a deficit? It won't build muscle in a deficit. It probably won't add strength. It will wear me out and lengthen my recovery and slow down my strength progress. I've only been lifting for 3 months so I have newbie gains left, and most of that will be neuro muscular while I'm still cutting. Maybe I should do them to strengthen tendons and joints?

I'm going to drop BBB until I get to my goal weight and then add it back in for the bulk over the winter.

Appreciate your thoughts.

Tom

Replies

  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
    Tagging
  • DopeItUp
    DopeItUp Posts: 18,771 Member
    Good question, I'm curious to see the replies myself.
  • Good question, I'm curious to see the replies myself.
    same
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    Also tagging, will comment when I have time to gather my thoughts.
  • cajuntank
    cajuntank Posts: 924 Member
    Tagging as I am also couriuos about this.
  • whitebalance
    whitebalance Posts: 1,654 Member
    Curiously lurking.
  • jollyjoe321
    jollyjoe321 Posts: 529 Member
    Taaagged :)
  • Hendrix7
    Hendrix7 Posts: 1,903 Member
    Couple of points that come to mind, especially considering this
    I've only been lifting for 3 months so I have newbie gains left, and most of that will be neuro muscular while I'm still cutting

    Strength gains can be made in any rep range, people seem to forget that. Getting stronger over 8-12 reps is still getting stronger

    If you're a newb then you need the practise at the lifts as much as possible. Doing the lifts for repetitions (assuming your form is ok) re-inforces that form. Use the repetition sets to really focus on form, set up, technique, bar speed etc.

    If you are cutting out all of that volume and not replacing it with something else, then you are lowering your energy expenditure - I would rather keep that as high as possible if I was trying to cut.
    It will wear me out and lengthen my recovery and slow down

    If you do the de-load every 4 weeks I wouldn't worry about this at all.
  • tomcornhole
    tomcornhole Posts: 1,084 Member
    Strength gains can be made in any rep range, people seem to forget that. Getting stronger over 8-12 reps is still getting stronger

    But doing 5x10 @ 50% 1RM is not building strength. It neither builds strength because it does not cause an adaptation and it cannot build muscle because I am in a deficit. It's what Rippetoe would call f&$karounditis. Actually, Rippetoe would describe strength training in a cut as "your not doing the f'ing program". But I still have gains to make even while cutting.
    If you're a newb then you need the practise at the lifts as much as possible. Doing the lifts for repetitions (assuming your form is ok) re-inforces that form. Use the repetition sets to really focus on form, set up, technique, bar speed etc.

    Concur. Practicing correct form is never a bad thing. And I do need the practice.
    If you are cutting out all of that volume and not replacing it with something else, then you are lowering your energy expenditure - I would rather keep that as high as possible if I was trying to cut.

    I guess it depends on why I am expending the energy. I am focused on strength, so adding volume for the sake of volume may not increase strength. The only way to get stronger is to lift heavier weights in a progressive loading regimen. Just lifting more of the same or less weight does not increase strength. At least that is my understanding. That is why I am asking this question. If I were in a bulk, the added volume would result in hypertrophy and that would help improve strength.

    On the other hand, the extra volume might help me cut faster. But I use calories to elicit the cut, not exercise.
    If you do the de-load every 4 weeks I wouldn't worry about this at all.

    At 47, I always have to worry about recovery. I was progressing very nicely at maintenance. I am barely hanging on at a deficit.
  • Hendrix7
    Hendrix7 Posts: 1,903 Member
    But doing 5x10 @ 50% 1RM is not building strength. It neither builds strength because it does not cause an adaptation

    Completely and totally disagree with this. If you take a lighter set close to, or to failure you will activate nearly all muscle fibres.

    You should be implementing progressive overload on your assistance exercises as well as the main lifts, after only lifting for 3months you should still be able to do that.

    If today I bench 80kilos for 10 reps an then a month later I can get 12 reps you're saying I'm not any stronger?
  • tomcornhole
    tomcornhole Posts: 1,084 Member
    Completely and totally disagree with this. If you take a lighter set close to, or to failure you will activate nearly all muscle fibres.

    But does that increase strength?
    You should be implementing progressive overload on your assistance exercises as well as the main lifts, after only lifting for 3months you should still be able to do that.

    I do progressively load my accessories. That is different than the BBB accessory work on 5/3/1. I progressively load my rows, lying tricep extensions and barbell curls. Those are getting stronger every week.
    If today I bench 80kilos for 10 reps an then a month later I can get 12 reps you're saying I'm not any stronger?

    That is getting stronger. But that is not my question. Does doing 5x10x40 kilos make you stronger? In a deficit?
  • Hendrix7
    Hendrix7 Posts: 1,903 Member
    That is getting stronger. But that is not my question. Does doing 5x10x40 kilos make you stronger? In a deficit?

    yes, this is still a training stimulus.

    you are concentrating on that 1 workout in isolation without looking at the big picture.

    today you do 5 x 10 @ 40
    next week you 5 x 11 @ 40
    week after you do 5 x 12 @ 40

    then you add 2.5 kilos and go back to sets of 8-10 and repeat.

    that's getting stronger, and it's possible in a deficit but I guess everyone will vary with how much mileage you can get out of that before you stall. A
  • tomcornhole
    tomcornhole Posts: 1,084 Member
    So the deficit question is now OBE because I hit my goal weight today. Going back to maintenance. I would like to hear the S3 input on this topic, though.
  • Acg67
    Acg67 Posts: 12,142 Member
    Most of my training is done with about 60% of my training max. This may or may not be 60% of my max that day, there is no real way to tell. However, I do know there are days when that weight is flying off my back and there are days when it feels slower than a turtle running through peanut butter. On days when the weight is flying I push harder by decreasing my rest times. On days when it seems tougher than it should I increase my rest times. Keep in mind the goal is not just to move the weight, it is to move the weight faster- to accelerate through every rep. Some days there is a lot more acceleration than others but the goal is always the same.

    http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2013/06/20/squatting-big/
  • tomcornhole
    tomcornhole Posts: 1,084 Member
    Great article. Thanks for that. I will incorporate speed into my lifting. I am an engineer, so the science resonates with that side of my brain.
  • cajuntank
    cajuntank Posts: 924 Member
    Most of my training is done with about 60% of my training max. This may or may not be 60% of my max that day, there is no real way to tell. However, I do know there are days when that weight is flying off my back and there are days when it feels slower than a turtle running through peanut butter. On days when the weight is flying I push harder by decreasing my rest times. On days when it seems tougher than it should I increase my rest times. Keep in mind the goal is not just to move the weight, it is to move the weight faster- to accelerate through every rep. Some days there is a lot more acceleration than others but the goal is always the same.

    http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2013/06/20/squatting-big/

    I read the link and found it interesting for sure, but this person is definitely at an advanced strength level due to years of training. I don't know how this type training would translate for a beginner or intermediate lifter for strength gains using beginner or intermediate level programs comparatively.

    Thoughts?