advice and tips for 13-20 mile runs?
penelepurr
Posts: 204 Member
Hi everyone! I'm Heather and I am by background a triathlete (1 half-IM in the books!) though I have been focusing on distance running recently and haven't done any tri's in a bit, due mostly to a couple years of grad school. Got back into things, and ran my first marathon, last year at Boston as a charity runner and am currently training for the Rock 'n Roll Savannah full on Nov 9th. I did a long run of 15 miles last week (ice bath followed) and this week my distance was 16.
Due to a festival I am going to on Saturday, I changed the run from then to today and I ran earlier today; the problem is, I totally lamed out and only ran 11 miles (I walked the last mile, actually). So, for the factors- weather was beautiful, mid-70's. I stayed on my nutrition plan which is to drink every mile and eat every 3 miles. Physically I felt like I could have kept going if needed but I was just so out of motivation and 5 miles was looking like a lot. I think my breakfast was the problem, it was about 600 cals (yogurt/granola/strawberries, 3 spoons of pb) that I ate around 9am. I ran around noon, so I was plenty hungry by the time I stopped.
So, should I not have ran through a mealtime? I normally do not. Did I not eat enough during the run? What I did eat then was a Honey Stinger waffle and half-a-pack of the Jelly Belly race beans. I drank water and Gatorade.
As far as the run today- should I run the other five today? Since I switched days, a) I did not run yesterday's maintenance run of 8 miles, and b) I am not scheduled to run again until Tuesday. Thinking I should throw in something short Saturday.
I train by myself (+iPod) which I don't mind doing and am usually fine with the distance. I found that versus last week, I just wasn't getting into a groove today. I took two bathroom breaks at 5 and 8 miles, so that also might have lowered my motivation a bit since I kept stopping.
I felt recovered from last week so I don't think being tired was an issue. Blah. I'm just bummed out but at that point, pulling out a tooth would have been more viable than pushing out a 10K. Mostly bummed because I can usually finish without walking (I'm not a huge walking fan and it gets a bad rep but does anyone walk as part of their long run?- or, rather, do you feel like it shouldn't have counted towards your mileage?), the weather was great, and if it was just the breakfast than that's stupid and I shouldn't have overlooked that detail.
just for info, the rest of my long runs are 12, 18, 14, 20, 12, 8, race.
I have some general questions about long runs since I am new to the 14+ distances.
-I was reading an article that talked about splitting the long run within a day (half in the morning, half later on, etc.). Obviously not something to do with every long run but does anyone split their runs occasionally or as a training tactic?
-Has anyone had good experience with a different nutrition plan?
-Any good tips on what to do when losing motivation during the run?
Thanks guys!
Due to a festival I am going to on Saturday, I changed the run from then to today and I ran earlier today; the problem is, I totally lamed out and only ran 11 miles (I walked the last mile, actually). So, for the factors- weather was beautiful, mid-70's. I stayed on my nutrition plan which is to drink every mile and eat every 3 miles. Physically I felt like I could have kept going if needed but I was just so out of motivation and 5 miles was looking like a lot. I think my breakfast was the problem, it was about 600 cals (yogurt/granola/strawberries, 3 spoons of pb) that I ate around 9am. I ran around noon, so I was plenty hungry by the time I stopped.
So, should I not have ran through a mealtime? I normally do not. Did I not eat enough during the run? What I did eat then was a Honey Stinger waffle and half-a-pack of the Jelly Belly race beans. I drank water and Gatorade.
As far as the run today- should I run the other five today? Since I switched days, a) I did not run yesterday's maintenance run of 8 miles, and b) I am not scheduled to run again until Tuesday. Thinking I should throw in something short Saturday.
I train by myself (+iPod) which I don't mind doing and am usually fine with the distance. I found that versus last week, I just wasn't getting into a groove today. I took two bathroom breaks at 5 and 8 miles, so that also might have lowered my motivation a bit since I kept stopping.
I felt recovered from last week so I don't think being tired was an issue. Blah. I'm just bummed out but at that point, pulling out a tooth would have been more viable than pushing out a 10K. Mostly bummed because I can usually finish without walking (I'm not a huge walking fan and it gets a bad rep but does anyone walk as part of their long run?- or, rather, do you feel like it shouldn't have counted towards your mileage?), the weather was great, and if it was just the breakfast than that's stupid and I shouldn't have overlooked that detail.
just for info, the rest of my long runs are 12, 18, 14, 20, 12, 8, race.
I have some general questions about long runs since I am new to the 14+ distances.
-I was reading an article that talked about splitting the long run within a day (half in the morning, half later on, etc.). Obviously not something to do with every long run but does anyone split their runs occasionally or as a training tactic?
-Has anyone had good experience with a different nutrition plan?
-Any good tips on what to do when losing motivation during the run?
Thanks guys!
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Replies
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The thing that jumped out to me is the you said that the remaining five miles seemed like a lot. I use the mantra "focus on the mile I am in". Thinking about the work ahead can be really overwhelming, at least for me. Staying present, tightening up my form and just concentrating on the mile I am running seems to help with the longer runs. One other thing that seems to help is to run the first half much slower than feels right. That way you are almost guaranteed a negative split and as I have gotten used to the longer distance, I have found the pace pick up a little overall. Slowing down is often the answer.
Good luck and have fun!0 -
My $.02 - that long run schedule is bare bones with only one 20 miler. I'd try to tweak that plan to get another 20 and then a two week taper instead of three. Not sure what your weekday runs look like. Also, if you're putting in big miles on the bike, then that seems to help the cause.
Splitting long run is better than nothing, but a 9 miler in the AM and another one in the PM does not = an 18 miler.
I always say I have bad training days so I don't have bad race days. Just gotta put on the shoes and get back out there.
Honestly nutrition shouldn't be that big a deal, just need to figure out works for you. Personally I run & race on an empty stomach or I get all crampy.
Running and racing (and training) should be fun. Perhaps consider bumping down the half instead of the full. Marathon training is a grind if you're not into it.
Good luck!0 -
For a twenty miler I have to fuel the day before, something close to the calories that will be burned during the run.0
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Hi!
A 20 miler is a long, hard slog...and it's meant to be.
I have only ran 3 training runs of 20 miles and hated the first 2 20 milers I did for my first marathon..for my last 20 miler, I decided to run a loop type route rather than 10 miles one way and go back the other.
I also fuel , I take a Gu at 6 and 12 miles, and a coca cola at mile 15, with enough water every couple of miles.
I also make a point of being as well hydrated as possible before the run,and during it.
Like you, I also run alone save for my iphone and music.
I'm also entered into the Savannah R&R, but in 50-50 if I'll fly from England to run it :-)
Good luck!0 -
sometimes a run just sucks
sometimes your body says do a crappy job today and don't force more
sometimes the long run the week after will be that run where you have a runner's high and it goes great.0 -
From my experience, I usually put down 400ish calories before long runs (full servings of FF Greek yogurt + Kashi protein crap cereal) and a banana, and I wait an hour before heading out. You might have waited a bit too long after your food. Also, you shouldn't have to fuel every 3 miles (assuming a 10ish min/mi). If you are properly fueled the day prior and morning of, you should be able to crank out the first 2 hours with no supps. Sometimes one bad feeling during a run can cascade and spoil the whole thing, so I would just keep at it that and just get out there and try it again.0
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From my experience, I usually put down 400ish calories before long runs (full servings of FF Greek yogurt + Kashi protein crap cereal) and a banana, and I wait an hour before heading out. You might have waited a bit too long after your food. Also, you shouldn't have to fuel every 3 miles (assuming a 10ish min/mi). If you are properly fueled the day prior and morning of, you should be able to crank out the first 2 hours with no supps. Sometimes one bad feeling during a run can cascade and spoil the whole thing, so I would just keep at it that and just get out there and try it again.
^Spot on0 -
There are a lot of things that we don't know here.
What's your weekly mileage right now?
What''s your average weekly mileage over the last 10 weeks?
What's are your 5K and HM PR times?
What pace are you doing your easy runs?
What pace are you doing your long runs?
What pace did you run the long run that you bonked on?
How many days a week are you currently running?
Are you doing any cross training?
My thoughts on fueling on the long run are that it's totally unnecessary, and even counterproductive to our training. The object of the long run is to train the body to use fat for energy instead of the more readily available glycogen. If we introduce simple sugars, we are inhibiting the entire goal of the long run. Does this mean that a long run might suck? Absolutely! Until your body is used to doing these without fuel, they just might suck at some point. Right now, I can do a 20 miler first thing in the AM without eating anything first and without fueling during the run. It's taken a while to get here, but the proof of benefit is in the PR numbers.0 -
There are a lot of things that we don't know here.
What's your weekly mileage right now?
What''s your average weekly mileage over the last 10 weeks?
What's are your 5K and HM PR times?
What pace are you doing your easy runs?
What pace are you doing your long runs?
What pace did you run the long run that you bonked on?
How many days a week are you currently running?
Are you doing any cross training?
My thoughts on fueling on the long run are that it's totally unnecessary, and even counterproductive to our training. The object of the long run is to train the body to use fat for energy instead of the more readily available glycogen. If we introduce simple sugars, we are inhibiting the entire goal of the long run. Does this mean that a long run might suck? Absolutely! Until your body is used to doing these without fuel, they just might suck at some point. Right now, I can do a 20 miler first thing in the AM without eating anything first and without fueling during the run. It's taken a while to get here, but the proof of benefit is in the PR numbers.
For the training, I am using Hal Higdon's Novice #1 marathon training plan.
1) this month, I averaged 24 miles/wk.
2) avg over the last 10 weeks is 16.6 miles/wk.
3) my fastest 5K is 24.55 (ran on 8/6 as one of the short runs). I have done 2 half-marathons, most recently in March 2013 and both times were 2:15.
4) checking out my Runkeeper app, I've had anywhere from 9:30-10:30 pace for runs 3-6 miles
5) and I am trying to keep closer to 11-12m/m for long runs
6) my avg pace for yesterday's 11 miles was 12:20
7) I run Tues/Wed/Thurs and Sat
8) I was doing yoga in the first few weeks of training but I haven't cross-trained since then. I think this omission [a day of cross-training is on the schedule] is due to an admittedly bad habit I quite quickly developed- I basically used cross-training before as a treatment for knee pain, which worked wonderfully, and now my legs are more used to the distance and I have not had joint pain other than the day-of long runs so I haven't kept with the cross-training.0 -
The thing that jumped out to me is the you said that the remaining five miles seemed like a lot. I use the mantra "focus on the mile I am in". Thinking about the work ahead can be really overwhelming, at least for me. Staying present, tightening up my form and just concentrating on the mile I am running seems to help with the longer runs. One other thing that seems to help is to run the first half much slower than feels right. That way you are almost guaranteed a negative split and as I have gotten used to the longer distance, I have found the pace pick up a little overall. Slowing down is often the answer.
Good luck and have fun!
Thank you! I do find myself "thinking forward" a lot during my runs. I will work on staying in the present. Slowing down is also a challenge- even if I think I'm moving slower, my first couple miles always end up being faster than I wanted. I am making some progress though.0 -
My $.02 - that long run schedule is bare bones with only one 20 miler. I'd try to tweak that plan to get another 20 and then a two week taper instead of three. Not sure what your weekday runs look like. Also, if you're putting in big miles on the bike, then that seems to help the cause.
Splitting long run is better than nothing, but a 9 miler in the AM and another one in the PM does not = an 18 miler.
I always say I have bad training days so I don't have bad race days. Just gotta put on the shoes and get back out there.
Honestly nutrition shouldn't be that big a deal, just need to figure out works for you. Personally I run & race on an empty stomach or I get all crampy.
Running and racing (and training) should be fun. Perhaps consider bumping down the half instead of the full. Marathon training is a grind if you're not into it.
Good luck!
Thanks for the advice! I will move the schedule around to include some more mileage and another 20.0 -
For a twenty miler I have to fuel the day before, something close to the calories that will be burned during the run.
Thanks Alan! Thinking back, I have been re-fueling with a lot of calories post-run but have not been pre-fueling as much, or more than an average meal anyway. I will try this out!0 -
For the training, I am using Hal Higdon's Novice #1 marathon training plan.
1) this month, I averaged 24 miles/wk.
2) avg over the last 10 weeks is 16.6 miles/wk.
3) my fastest 5K is 24.55 (ran on 8/6 as one of the short runs). I have done 2 half-marathons, most recently in March 2013 and both times were 2:15.
4) checking out my Runkeeper app, I've had anywhere from 9:30-10:30 pace for runs 3-6 miles
5) and I am trying to keep closer to 11-12m/m for long runs
6) my avg pace for yesterday's 11 miles was 12:20
7) I run Tues/Wed/Thurs and Sat
8) I was doing yoga in the first few weeks of training but I haven't cross-trained since then. I think this omission [a day of cross-training is on the schedule] is due to an admittedly bad habit I quite quickly developed- I basically used cross-training before as a treatment for knee pain, which worked wonderfully, and now my legs are more used to the distance and I have not had joint pain other than the day-of long runs so I haven't kept with the cross-training.
Based on your recent race times, there is a big disparity in your HM time compared to your 5K. You 5K calculates out to a sub 2:00 HM. So, I looked at your training paces based on a 2:15 instead. Your paces are right where they need to be. I would suggest that you slow the easy runs down just a bit, closer to 10:00, to 10:30 pace. You get no additional benefit from running them faster, you'll actually get more from running them slower as you'll have more time on your feet.
Based on your mileage thus far, be prepared for a challenging marathon. I would encourage you to make sure you do all the runs on the plan and maybe even squeeze in a few more. For the cross training days, you should do something to help build your aerobic system, like riding a bike or swimming. The disparity in your times is because of a lack of aerobic base, so anything you can do to improve that is going to benefit you greatly.
When it comes to race day, do not go out too fast. You are going to have to make a conscious effort to hold yourself back. You'll be feeling good the first 10+ miles, but if you start to drop that pace into the low 10s, high 9s, you will be very sorry when mile 20 rolls around. McMillan predicts a 4:44 for you @ 10:51 pace. I've found that for first timers, adding 15 minutes to that prediction is safer, so your marathon pace to start out should probably be around 11:10 or so.0 -
Hi!
A 20 miler is a long, hard slog...and it's meant to be.
I have only ran 3 training runs of 20 miles and hated the first 2 20 milers I did for my first marathon..for my last 20 miler, I decided to run a loop type route rather than 10 miles one way and go back the other.
I also fuel , I take a Gu at 6 and 12 miles, and a coca cola at mile 15, with enough water every couple of miles.
I also make a point of being as well hydrated as possible before the run,and during it.
Like you, I also run alone save for my iphone and music.
I'm also entered into the Savannah R&R, but in 50-50 if I'll fly from England to run it :-)
Good luck!
Thanks! Along with the other replies, looks like I might be fueling too often during the run. I will try to space things out next time. Good luck to you also if you make it over here! 0 -
sometimes a run just sucks
sometimes your body says do a crappy job today and don't force more
sometimes the long run the week after will be that run where you have a runner's high and it goes great.
Thanks for this- I do find myself in the mindset sometimes that every run should be great. Realistically that cannot be the case though. I will keep this in mind 0 -
From my experience, I usually put down 400ish calories before long runs (full servings of FF Greek yogurt + Kashi protein crap cereal) and a banana, and I wait an hour before heading out. You might have waited a bit too long after your food. Also, you shouldn't have to fuel every 3 miles (assuming a 10ish min/mi). If you are properly fueled the day prior and morning of, you should be able to crank out the first 2 hours with no supps. Sometimes one bad feeling during a run can cascade and spoil the whole thing, so I would just keep at it that and just get out there and try it again.
Thank you! I will try to fuel less frequently during the run and see how that works out. I will also work on fueling the day before.0 -
For the training, I am using Hal Higdon's Novice #1 marathon training plan.
1) this month, I averaged 24 miles/wk.
2) avg over the last 10 weeks is 16.6 miles/wk.
3) my fastest 5K is 24.55 (ran on 8/6 as one of the short runs). I have done 2 half-marathons, most recently in March 2013 and both times were 2:15.
4) checking out my Runkeeper app, I've had anywhere from 9:30-10:30 pace for runs 3-6 miles
5) and I am trying to keep closer to 11-12m/m for long runs
6) my avg pace for yesterday's 11 miles was 12:20
7) I run Tues/Wed/Thurs and Sat
8) I was doing yoga in the first few weeks of training but I haven't cross-trained since then. I think this omission [a day of cross-training is on the schedule] is due to an admittedly bad habit I quite quickly developed- I basically used cross-training before as a treatment for knee pain, which worked wonderfully, and now my legs are more used to the distance and I have not had joint pain other than the day-of long runs so I haven't kept with the cross-training.
Based on your recent race times, there is a big disparity in your HM time compared to your 5K. You 5K calculates out to a sub 2:00 HM. So, I looked at your training paces based on a 2:15 instead. Your paces are right where they need to be. I would suggest that you slow the easy runs down just a bit, closer to 10:00, to 10:30 pace. You get no additional benefit from running them faster, you'll actually get more from running them slower as you'll have more time on your feet.
Based on your mileage thus far, be prepared for a challenging marathon. I would encourage you to make sure you do all the runs on the plan and maybe even squeeze in a few more. For the cross training days, you should do something to help build your aerobic system, like riding a bike or swimming. The disparity in your times is because of a lack of aerobic base, so anything you can do to improve that is going to benefit you greatly.
When it comes to race day, do not go out too fast. You are going to have to make a conscious effort to hold yourself back. You'll be feeling good the first 10+ miles, but if you start to drop that pace into the low 10s, high 9s, you will be very sorry when mile 20 rolls around. McMillan predicts a 4:44 for you @ 10:51 pace. I've found that for first timers, adding 15 minutes to that prediction is safer, so your marathon pace to start out should probably be around 11:10 or so.
Thanks so much for this analysis! I will work on slowing my pace and adding in some cross-training.0
