Is it ok to kill a cyclist?
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verdemujer
Posts: 1,397 Member
A new MFP friend posted today about a cyclist killed in a roundabout in her area of the world. In the comments on her post, was this article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/opinion/sunday/is-it-ok-to-kill-cyclists.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2&smid=tw-share
As I read it, I was familiar with the common themes of who owns the road issues that seem to crop up when a cyclist/motor vehicle accident happen. What I didn't realize was how few people recieve any type of punshiment for killing a person on a bike while they are driving if they aren't under the influence of something. That just seems really wrong. It does make it seem like it's ok to kill a person if they were riding a bicycle.
This is a major part of his last paragraph:
Every time you get on a bike, from this moment forward, obey the letter of the law in every traffic exchange everywhere to help drivers (and police officers) view cyclists as predictable users of the road who deserve respect. And every time you get behind the wheel, remember that even the slightest inattention can maim or kill a human being enjoying a legitimate form of transportation.
And that's what I practice. It's so tempting to run that stop light if the traffic is clear but I won't. And while I roll through stop signs, its at a very slow speed and I've checked both ways that it's my turn. If someone else is there, I'll stop to give them the right away. I'm teaching my kid this but he also sees some behavior on our group rides that is counter and we talk about this from time to time.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/opinion/sunday/is-it-ok-to-kill-cyclists.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2&smid=tw-share
As I read it, I was familiar with the common themes of who owns the road issues that seem to crop up when a cyclist/motor vehicle accident happen. What I didn't realize was how few people recieve any type of punshiment for killing a person on a bike while they are driving if they aren't under the influence of something. That just seems really wrong. It does make it seem like it's ok to kill a person if they were riding a bicycle.
This is a major part of his last paragraph:
Every time you get on a bike, from this moment forward, obey the letter of the law in every traffic exchange everywhere to help drivers (and police officers) view cyclists as predictable users of the road who deserve respect. And every time you get behind the wheel, remember that even the slightest inattention can maim or kill a human being enjoying a legitimate form of transportation.
And that's what I practice. It's so tempting to run that stop light if the traffic is clear but I won't. And while I roll through stop signs, its at a very slow speed and I've checked both ways that it's my turn. If someone else is there, I'll stop to give them the right away. I'm teaching my kid this but he also sees some behavior on our group rides that is counter and we talk about this from time to time.
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At first it was a decent article and then I just got more po'd as it went on. Here is Bike Snob's response which I find to be spot on.
http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2013/11/shafted-again.html
I started out following the law exactly, but then I realized it doesn't make sense sometimes. Why should I risk my life riding on the road with heavy traffic and no shoulder when there is a sidewalk with absolutely no one ever walking on it? I'm sick of trying to prove myself as a considerate cyclist to drivers when drivers are inconsiderate of everyone, not just cyclists. I do my best to keep myself and everyone else safe. If it ends up irking people, that's their problem. Motorists are angry to begin with, or at least I know I am most of the time. And it's not the cyclists that piss me off...0 -
The first article had me interest...until I realized they were F.O.S. and only wanted us to be good little cyclist and never ride out of turn. The BikeSnob article got me laughing and thinking and fired up my rebellious streak. But it doesn't matter.
The reality is this: if you ride a bike (for whatever reason) in this country, it is open season on you (us). The lack of any sort of penalties (in most places) combined with authority figures who think that bikes have no place on the road in the first place and a general cheapening of the value of a human life in this country lead to a situation where you can get run over and end up paying the motorist for the pleasure. Yes, that's hyperbole...but not too far from the truth. There is an abrogation of personal responsibility that happens when too many folks get in their cars - especially when it comes to cyclists, a law with teeth might prevent that.
I've gone both ways, from genteel law-abiding drone to scofflaw outlaw cyclist and both ways were too extreme. Sometimes you have to break to law beacuse the law is biased/stupid/irrelevant or plain dangerous to a cyclist. Just like that though, breaking the law is biased/stupid/irrelevant or plain dangerous. I try to tread the middle ground. But I'm tired, like the other poster, of having to prove my self to everyone else, that I'm safe, that I'm considerate, that I'm willing to be 100% law-abiding - because it's not recpricoal.0 -
I try to obey the laws, but sometimes vehicles force me not to. I will not risk my life to obey rules that others willfully ignore. When safety is paramount, I will ride on the sidewalk or walk my bike in a pedestrian crossing.
After almost being clipped three times this year in a roundabout, I have altered my cycling commute route to use a bike path. It lengthens my ride and commute time, but at least I don't have to deal with idiots... And there are idiots in the motorist and cycling commuties.
Everyone just needs to follow the rules of the road and learn to share it with others. Cyclists, motorists and pedestrians all need to take heed of others and be courteous.0 -
Everyone just needs to follow the rules of the road and learn to share it with others. Cyclists, motorists and pedestrians all need to take heed of others and be courteous.
This exactly. We all need to value other human lives just a little bit more...but isn't that what's really wrong with all of society and not just the roads?0 -
Those are all very valid points. Remember, the orginal article writer is actually opting out of the whole thing by choosing to ride in his basement (so he says) rather than deal with motorists. I ride on the side walk on part of my commute because its just safer though that then means I need to yield to pedestrians. I would rather yield than be ran over. I just don't like it when I see cyclist run red lights though. I think that is unacceptable risk.
But the other point, which as sillygoosie makes is that there is a wide spread devaluing of life over all and this is just one example of it. And that is the thing about the article that bothers me. Because, if its a wreck between cars and someone dies, then the drive (regardless of toxity tests) is going to most likely be facing some type of manslaughter charge. Same thing if they run over a pedestrian so long as the pedestrian is in a side walk and obeying the traffic laws. But apparently bicyclists are fair game.
I've seen changes but I think we still need to work for more awareness and more legal ramifications if someone runs over a cyclist.0 -
Those are all very valid points. Remember, the orginal article writer is actually opting out of the whole thing by choosing to ride in his basement (so he says) rather than deal with motorists. I ride on the side walk on part of my commute because its just safer though that then means I need to yield to pedestrians. I would rather yield than be ran over. I just don't like it when I see cyclist run red lights though. I think that is unacceptable risk.
But the other point, which as sillygoosie makes is that there is a wide spread devaluing of life over all and this is just one example of it. And that is the thing about the article that bothers me. Because, if its a wreck between cars and someone dies, then the drive (regardless of toxity tests) is going to most likely be facing some type of manslaughter charge. Same thing if they run over a pedestrian so long as the pedestrian is in a side walk and obeying the traffic laws. But apparently bicyclists are fair game.
I've seen changes but I think we still need to work for more awareness and more legal ramifications if someone runs over a cyclist.
Yeah, I find it very hard to believe that someone with a love of cycling would choose to basement ride. It really makes me question the author. No one in their right mind basement rides unless they have to. It's torture.0 -
I live in suburbia, and typically ride on the frequently used sidewalks, but they are generally empty enough that I rarely have to yield to pedestrians. My focus is not getting myself killed, I don't care what the law says anywhere.
I assume that every car is being driven by a 16 year old newly minted boy who is on the phone texting and not paying attention to the road. So far I am still alive, so I will keep doing what I am doing.
Wherever you live, ride as you like to keep yourself safe.0 -
Funny that the author of the article did not ask car drivers to follow the rules to let others know they are good citizens as well. BikeSnob today mentioned that in NYC over a million cars run lights every year but newspapers and others who like to point the finger at cyclists never seem to mention the fact that running a red light or stop sign is pretty normal behavior for automobile drivers - so is speeding, changing lanes without signaling, driving within three feet of a cyclists (as is against the law now in California), crossing the fog line when coming up on a cyclists to make sure we get that metal taste in our mouths (happened to me last night), and many other violations that cause not just auto vs auto accident but kills cyclists.0
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It's scary how little consideration someone can have in a potential killing machine, superiority complex and poor judgement is a dangerous thing no matter how much you obey the rules as a cyclist. Everyone should cycle some of the time as it makes you a more considerate driver and you understand the vulnerabilities that come with cycling.0
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Accidents happen.
If the driver was inattentive, on the phone, texting, high, drunk etc, then it is less of an accident.
Twenty-Five years ago I ran an old lady over. I was stone cold sober, did not have a cell phone, was not driving distracted in any way.
She quite literally stepped off the curb and almost literally fell into my path.
I hammered the brake pedal and tried super hard to avoid her. My car had ABS and I was able to swerve to a degree to miss her.
I still hit her.
The impact was relatively low speed, but a 2500lb Ford vs a 100lb little old lady meant that the transfer of momentum was devastating.
The impact broke her hip, the subsequent impact with the road broke her arm and cracked her skull.
She was declared dead on arrival at hospital.
The police did not prosecute me.
Sometimes accidents happen, in almost any car vs human impact, the human is going to come off way worse.
I ride my bikes in an offensive way - no music, constant vigilance, total concentration on what is going on around me.0 -
I ride my bikes in an offensive way - no music, constant vigilance, total concentration on what is going on around me.
I agree, accidents happen and, sadly, there are too many times that the cyclists are - at least in part - authors of their own misfortunes.
I ride offensively too, I assume every vehicle is trying to kill me and to anticipate what they're going to do next. I wear bright extremely visible clothing and have a very bright flashing white LED light (daytime riding) front and red LED at the rear and still have had a number of close calls.
A very promising squash player was killed in Toronto recently and, for once, the vehicle driver has been charged with dangerous driving causing death and criminal negligence causing death.....it will be interesting to see how this one plays out.0 -
I wonder what the resolution of cop killing cyclist will be?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=211513660
