RMR Test, and what do I do now? (Heybales, help please?)
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dnh_fit
Posts: 15
I wasn't going to post this question, but I thought it might be of interest to some of you...and the more I think about it, the more curious I become!
I had my RMR tested yesterday at a local weight loss facility run by a very well known doctor specializing in weight loss, Dr. Yoni Freedhoff (http://www.weightymatters.ca/ is his blog, or http://bmimedical.ca/about/medical-director.aspx for his clinic). I had fasted for 10 hours prior to the test, and had not consumed any liquid, supplements, etc. in that time either, per their instruction. I had also been in a completely rested state for 24 hours prior (sitting in a car traveling from the states back to Canada).
The test was done in two parts: first, a BMR test with a bioleectrical impedence machine thingy (technical, no?) and then a test where I had to sit still (I could read but nothing involving movement) with an oxygen mask for 15 minutes after having sat still with the mask for 5 minutes prior. I was blown away by the results, and was told by the person supervising my test that if I'd been very uncomfortable, it could have influenced the reading...but I was quite comfortable and was breathing naturally. She tested for leaks before beginning the test, so I'm assuming all was ok there.
Here's the data I got back:
Height: 5'7 (I'm really 5'6.5 but they tossed me 1/2 inch)
Age: 28
Weight: 160.31 (I was 154.6 on November 19 and this was clothed and after a 2 week carb-fest as compared to my usual 40/30/30 (P/F/C) macros
Body fat: 43lbs
LBM: 117.3 lbs
Dry Lean Mass: 31.3. lbs
Body Water: 86.0 lbs
Intracellular water: 53.1
Extracellular water: 32.8lbs
Bodyfat %: 26.8
Predicted RMR: 25.9
Tested RMR: 1930
% Above/Below "Normal": 25.9
So obviously I found the fact that I burn 1930calories/day and 25.9 above average to be very interesting. I've done some googling and while the dexa or bodpod is typically the MOST accurate, the test I had has been validated based on peer reviewed research, from what I can see.
I'm due to 'end' my 8 weeks at TDEE any day now (actually I was due on January 2) so I'm thinking that my next step should be to weigh consistently for the next week while still eating at my calculated TDEE (2280) and with my regular exercise, and see if my weight is stable. I haven't weighed myself since November 19, which is when I got my 154.6 reading, which means that between November 19 and January3, I gained ~5lbs. I'm guessing the best way to test all of this is to use your approach of increasing calories by 250/day once weight has stabilized and seeing if I gain a pound (indicating that my current TDEE estimate is OK) or more (indicating I'm not at TDEE yet)?
I guess I'm not really sure what I'm looking to find out here - I'm moreso shocked and a little skeptical of my results, but also excited if they are accurate because it means that the broken metabolism that is LEGEND in my family is all a lie!!
I had my RMR tested yesterday at a local weight loss facility run by a very well known doctor specializing in weight loss, Dr. Yoni Freedhoff (http://www.weightymatters.ca/ is his blog, or http://bmimedical.ca/about/medical-director.aspx for his clinic). I had fasted for 10 hours prior to the test, and had not consumed any liquid, supplements, etc. in that time either, per their instruction. I had also been in a completely rested state for 24 hours prior (sitting in a car traveling from the states back to Canada).
The test was done in two parts: first, a BMR test with a bioleectrical impedence machine thingy (technical, no?) and then a test where I had to sit still (I could read but nothing involving movement) with an oxygen mask for 15 minutes after having sat still with the mask for 5 minutes prior. I was blown away by the results, and was told by the person supervising my test that if I'd been very uncomfortable, it could have influenced the reading...but I was quite comfortable and was breathing naturally. She tested for leaks before beginning the test, so I'm assuming all was ok there.
Here's the data I got back:
Height: 5'7 (I'm really 5'6.5 but they tossed me 1/2 inch)
Age: 28
Weight: 160.31 (I was 154.6 on November 19 and this was clothed and after a 2 week carb-fest as compared to my usual 40/30/30 (P/F/C) macros
Body fat: 43lbs
LBM: 117.3 lbs
Dry Lean Mass: 31.3. lbs
Body Water: 86.0 lbs
Intracellular water: 53.1
Extracellular water: 32.8lbs
Bodyfat %: 26.8
Predicted RMR: 25.9
Tested RMR: 1930
% Above/Below "Normal": 25.9
So obviously I found the fact that I burn 1930calories/day and 25.9 above average to be very interesting. I've done some googling and while the dexa or bodpod is typically the MOST accurate, the test I had has been validated based on peer reviewed research, from what I can see.
I'm due to 'end' my 8 weeks at TDEE any day now (actually I was due on January 2) so I'm thinking that my next step should be to weigh consistently for the next week while still eating at my calculated TDEE (2280) and with my regular exercise, and see if my weight is stable. I haven't weighed myself since November 19, which is when I got my 154.6 reading, which means that between November 19 and January3, I gained ~5lbs. I'm guessing the best way to test all of this is to use your approach of increasing calories by 250/day once weight has stabilized and seeing if I gain a pound (indicating that my current TDEE estimate is OK) or more (indicating I'm not at TDEE yet)?
I guess I'm not really sure what I'm looking to find out here - I'm moreso shocked and a little skeptical of my results, but also excited if they are accurate because it means that the broken metabolism that is LEGEND in my family is all a lie!!
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Replies
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I think you'll be able to tell I love doing this stuff, even if most of it is merely academic and doesn't change real use figures much. So I've thrown out a lot of figures since you gave a lot, just extra knowledge if desired.
So first separate the results of the BIA and it's potential inaccuracy and what it gives you (BF% & LBM only) from the RMR test and what it gives you (calories no matter weight).
You can compare what calculated from one would mean compared to the other, like they did kind of.
Say for this BF% range, what would be the calculated RMR, compared to your tested RMR.
Or for your RMR, what would be the expected BF%, compared to your tested figure.
Very valid RMR test, good prep if that was actually stated by them or you did it anyway. This is obviously not the group that shows up in a mall with a metabolic cart doing mass tests for $25 (and totally invalid for a meaningful figure). That kind of care means they likely calibrate their machine often.
The BIA though, huh, can be within 5% of truth IF you have normal hydration levels in the body - not sodium retained or dehydrated. Then it comes down to how do you confirm that? Well totally can't, but no exercise prior as you did, normal meals, normal drinking levels. But that's why it's many times given as 10% range. And just fine for consistency doing the test often and getting a direction of up or down.
Biggest problem though, what was true weight, not clothed weight, on that day, or now?
That's needed for the comparison calc's, and to backward check their results. There hasn't been any changes to the assumed values and methods for doing this through the years, merely what is measured, and the tables used.
http://www.brianmac.co.uk/fatbia.htm
Basically taking their results with inflated weight, figuring out the TBW and then Resistance, then doing the calc again with real weight. You give enough stats otherwise I can do that, just need true non-clothed weight.
Was the BIA done with connections at hands and feet, feet only, hands only, ect?
So that's trying to get best results on the part of the test with biggest potential for inaccuracy.
To current stats (using the spreadsheet on my profile page) which will change a tad based on real weight:
A tested RMR of 1930 taken back to Katch BMR would be 1774. Any sites that ask for BMR, that's what you want to use.
So think about current TDEE estimate, what BMR was used and what value was it?
Now, an RMR of 1930 and using the Cunningham RMR calc would result in a BF of 10%, or LBM of 90% of true weight.
So if you used a TDEE site where you could enter BF%, you'd have to use 10% for them to use the same BMR as tested gave.
Now, to the other test, using that tested BF 26.8%, and since hopefully 5% accurate, range of 21.8 - 31.8% (though you may know you aren't near the 22 side, and therefore the 5% above is more realistic direction. 5% accurate doesn't mean your figure is in the middle).
So LBM of 125.1 to 109.1.
Cunningham RMR for that LBM would be 1749 to 1589.
So yep, your measured RMR 1930 is well above what would be expected for even your best potential BFof 21.8% of 1749, indeed 10% over at best, or 16% better than the 26.8%.
Their 25% better figure probably came from BMR/RMR based on age, weight, height, gender, not BF%.
To be clear, your RMR being 1930 means you would burn that daily being awake non-moving, just like during your test.
Throw in daily moving and exercise and eating, you'll burn a lot more than that.
And true, no low metabolism there. Though that doesn't speak to if your body is slowing down daily activities to compensate.
And true, best test is the 2 weeks eating 250 daily more than estimated TDEE to confirm.
Now, the realistic part here that is individual and mainly untestable - your genetics and body state could mean a fast adapting metabolism, and your body's level where too much stress causes that to start may be low or high.
Meaning your stress of daily life, lack of sleep, food sensitivities, type of exercise frequency/intensity, and putting a diet on top, the amount of deficit could push stress level high enough body starts adapting by slowing down overall metabolism.
Your body could take a lot, could take little. Could adapt fast, could adapt slow.
I will suggest, merely for tracking and seeing the figures, if you can use the spreadsheet, do so. Simple Setup and Progress tabs are only 2 needed.
Once you enter your measurements and get an average BF% based on just the 2 calcs (don't enter the BIA results yet), take that BIA result divided by average measured calc to find your correction factor. Example, 26.8 / 28.1 = 0.95. Enter that right above the cell where you enter your own BF% in to. If you can retain LBM, that will be correct for a while hopefully as things change.
Now put your BIA test in the field where it says Body comp scale. At some point it of course won't be correct, like 5 lbs lighter take it out. Then base new BF% stat on measurement calculated BF x correction factor.
Do enter your RMR 1930 in that field available, it will be used for basis of calculations since it's higher.
Another stat that would be useful, since RMR is based on LBM, and that may change slightly.
Take RMR / LBM shown above to get your RMR per lb of LBM, and note that figure right above the RMR field. Now as LBM will eventually drop, you can recalc what a better estimated RMR would be based on new LBM.
Then use rest of it as normal with Activity Calc. See how that TDEE compares now to what you are eating at reset.
Use Progress tab to record current results and date.
Sorry so long, this was interesting test and while so many think they have slower than normal metabolism, I'm surprised how many have great tests like this. And while the result is so much higher than perhaps expected, I'm betting some of that is on inaccuracy of BF% measurement.0 -
I think you'll be able to tell I love doing this stuff, even if most of it is merely academic and doesn't change real use figures much. So I've thrown out a lot of figures since you gave a lot, just extra knowledge if desired.
So first separate the results of the BIA and it's potential inaccuracy and what it gives you (BF% & LBM only) from the RMR test and what it gives you (calories no matter weight).
You can compare what calculated from one would mean compared to the other, like they did kind of.
Say for this BF% range, what would be the calculated RMR, compared to your tested RMR.
Or for your RMR, what would be the expected BF%, compared to your tested figure.
Very valid RMR test, good prep if that was actually stated by them or you did it anyway. This is obviously not the group that shows up in a mall with a metabolic cart doing mass tests for $25 (and totally invalid for a meaningful figure). That kind of care means they likely calibrate their machine often.
The BIA though, huh, can be within 5% of truth IF you have normal hydration levels in the body - not sodium retained or dehydrated. Then it comes down to how do you confirm that? Well totally can't, but no exercise prior as you did, normal meals, normal drinking levels. But that's why it's many times given as 10% range. And just fine for consistency doing the test often and getting a direction of up or down.
Biggest problem though, what was true weight, not clothed weight, on that day, or now?
That's needed for the comparison calc's, and to backward check their results. There hasn't been any changes to the assumed values and methods for doing this through the years, merely what is measured, and the tables used.
http://www.brianmac.co.uk/fatbia.htm
Basically taking their results with inflated weight, figuring out the TBW and then Resistance, then doing the calc again with real weight. You give enough stats otherwise I can do that, just need true non-clothed weight.
Was the BIA done with connections at hands and feet, feet only, hands only, ect?
So that's trying to get best results on the part of the test with biggest potential for inaccuracy.
To current stats (using the spreadsheet on my profile page) which will change a tad based on real weight:
A tested RMR of 1930 taken back to Katch BMR would be 1774. Any sites that ask for BMR, that's what you want to use.
So think about current TDEE estimate, what BMR was used and what value was it?
Now, an RMR of 1930 and using the Cunningham RMR calc would result in a BF of 10%, or LBM of 90% of true weight.
So if you used a TDEE site where you could enter BF%, you'd have to use 10% for them to use the same BMR as tested gave.
Now, to the other test, using that tested BF 26.8%, and since hopefully 5% accurate, range of 21.8 - 31.8% (though you may know you aren't near the 22 side, and therefore the 5% above is more realistic direction. 5% accurate doesn't mean your figure is in the middle).
So LBM of 125.1 to 109.1.
Cunningham RMR for that LBM would be 1749 to 1589.
So yep, your measured RMR 1930 is well above what would be expected for even your best potential BFof 21.8% of 1749, indeed 10% over at best, or 16% better than the 26.8%.
Their 25% better figure probably came from BMR/RMR based on age, weight, height, gender, not BF%.
To be clear, your RMR being 1930 means you would burn that daily being awake non-moving, just like during your test.
Throw in daily moving and exercise and eating, you'll burn a lot more than that.
And true, no low metabolism there. Though that doesn't speak to if your body is slowing down daily activities to compensate.
And true, best test is the 2 weeks eating 250 daily more than estimated TDEE to confirm.
Now, the realistic part here that is individual and mainly untestable - your genetics and body state could mean a fast adapting metabolism, and your body's level where too much stress causes that to start may be low or high.
Meaning your stress of daily life, lack of sleep, food sensitivities, type of exercise frequency/intensity, and putting a diet on top, the amount of deficit could push stress level high enough body starts adapting by slowing down overall metabolism.
Your body could take a lot, could take little. Could adapt fast, could adapt slow.
I will suggest, merely for tracking and seeing the figures, if you can use the spreadsheet, do so. Simple Setup and Progress tabs are only 2 needed.
Once you enter your measurements and get an average BF% based on just the 2 calcs (don't enter the BIA results yet), take that BIA result divided by average measured calc to find your correction factor. Example, 26.8 / 28.1 = 0.95. Enter that right above the cell where you enter your own BF% in to. If you can retain LBM, that will be correct for a while hopefully as things change.
Now put your BIA test in the field where it says Body comp scale. At some point it of course won't be correct, like 5 lbs lighter take it out. Then base new BF% stat on measurement calculated BF x correction factor.
Do enter your RMR 1930 in that field available, it will be used for basis of calculations since it's higher.
Another stat that would be useful, since RMR is based on LBM, and that may change slightly.
Take RMR / LBM shown above to get your RMR per lb of LBM, and note that figure right above the RMR field. Now as LBM will eventually drop, you can recalc what a better estimated RMR would be based on new LBM.
Then use rest of it as normal with Activity Calc. See how that TDEE compares now to what you are eating at reset.
Use Progress tab to record current results and date.
Sorry so long, this was interesting test and while so many think they have slower than normal metabolism, I'm surprised how many have great tests like this. And while the result is so much higher than perhaps expected, I'm betting some of that is on inaccuracy of BF% measurement.
Awesome, thanks so much. This was really really helpful - I need to read through a few times to really process. I'll get back to you with the non-clothed scale weight (I want to replicate teh circumstances as much as I can, which means weighing after a rest day which means Wednesday) but to answer this question:
"Basically taking their results with inflated weight, figuring out the TBW and then Resistance, then doing the calc again with real weight. You give enough stats otherwise I can do that, just need true non-clothed weight.
Was the BIA done with connections at hands and feet, feet only, hands only, ect?"
The BIA was done with both hands and feet. It was basically this machine: http://www3.gehealthcare.com.sg/en-GB/Products/Categories/Metabolic_Health/DSM_Bioelectrical_Impedance_Analysis/~/media/Images/Product/Product-Categories/Metabolic-Health/DSM Bioelectrical Impedance Analysis/MH_inbody520_patient.jpg?mw=4620 -
Hey again! I weighed this morning unclothed, and at the same time as they weighed me last Friday at the clinic (10am). I was 159.6. My BF% per MY scale was 25.8 and my Total Body Water % was 50.6. So that is a gain of 5lbs in 7 weeks (November 19 - January 8) and not sure what my original weight was because I started eating at TDEE on October 31.0
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Ah good, values don't change enough to be in significant digits, so no change to your stats. 159.6 (considering scale is probably only accurate to 0.5 lbs) compared to their different scale of 160.3 that you have no idea measures the same as yours.
Working backwards from their used weight of 72.7154 kg gives resistance of 355.451.
Used with correct weight of 72.3933 gives LBM of 73.4%, BF of 26.6%.
So doesn't change anything since the accuracy of the test far overshadows that difference.
So if you are pretty sure you've been eating at estimated TDEE since that time, and that's based on newer tested RMR value, then you could use that data and accurate food logging to determine real TDEE for the routine you did during that time.
Of course, if a great amount of that time was NOT your normal routine each week, then it wouldn't be a meaningful number. Like if you had 2 weeks of 7 with totally different workouts because of the holidays, then not valid math.
If you had like 9 days out of 49 days with totally guessed calories eaten, or skipped logging because of holiday meals and such, then not valid math. 18-28% non-valid data points means that's not a valid method.
So back to using estimated TDEE for current routine that should not change, and take 2 weeks and eat 250 more each day. Should only see 1 lb slow gain. Anything more proves not at TDEE.0 -
Ah good, values don't change enough to be in significant digits, so no change to your stats. 159.6 (considering scale is probably only accurate to 0.5 lbs) compared to their different scale of 160.3 that you have no idea measures the same as yours.
Working backwards from their used weight of 72.7154 kg gives resistance of 355.451.
Used with correct weight of 72.3933 gives LBM of 73.4%, BF of 26.6%.
So doesn't change anything since the accuracy of the test far overshadows that difference.
So if you are pretty sure you've been eating at estimated TDEE since that time, and that's based on newer tested RMR value, then you could use that data and accurate food logging to determine real TDEE for the routine you did during that time.
Of course, if a great amount of that time was NOT your normal routine each week, then it wouldn't be a meaningful number. Like if you had 2 weeks of 7 with totally different workouts because of the holidays, then not valid math.
If you had like 9 days out of 49 days with totally guessed calories eaten, or skipped logging because of holiday meals and such, then not valid math. 18-28% non-valid data points means that's not a valid method.
So back to using estimated TDEE for current routine that should not change, and take 2 weeks and eat 250 more each day. Should only see 1 lb slow gain. Anything more proves not at TDEE.
Heybales, you're such a fountain of knowledge and have probably saved countless folks around here from losing their minds during this process - so a huge thank you
So I'm not sure if I'm understanding completely. Based on the calcs you've done, would you say then that the results of the RMR test I had done could be valid, or that they are likely inflated? I was just playing around in your calculator and if the RMR test was roughly accurate even, I am just at the tip of the TDEE iceberg i think. I'm eating 2280 (and my exercise was consistent over the 9 weeks I've been eating this amount) and with an RMR of 1900+ I think I should be closer to 2500-2600. Is that even possible?
I guess the solution is just to test it. I'm just still wrapping my head around the data itself!0 -
oh, don't get me started !!!!
Ya, with RMR already at 1930, eating energy expended is 10% of what you eat, daily life, and then exercise - ya, I'd think more than 2300. It sounds like they did good test, unless you were just not really calm and breathing up a storm.
But some of your higher level body functions might have, say, been coming back on line, if prior to that was much less.
Like do you notice yourself more active now, outside exercise? Willing to get up more, shift around, bounce leg, ect?
So if body had slowed that down and you ate more, it could take a bit for it to return, all the while you are truly eating in surplus until it come back.
So easily could be up there higher, and indeed test is only way to know.
Enjoy increased workout ability during that 2 weeks. You might miss it later.
That will prove out where TDEE was, is.
If not, then it sounds like the 9 weeks would be valid to use to calculate TDEE, if you think the food logging was pretty accurate.
And I mean full food eaten really being logged, no missing meals or days. Accuracy of what is eaten wouldn't matter as much with this method.
Because if it looked like you ate 2300 logging everything, but perhaps inaccurate weighing/measurements, so in truth you ate 2700, you'll calculate your TDEE is for example 200 less.
So you may now eat 2100 with same level of inaccuracy, but in truth you are eating 2500 if truly accurate.
The only problem would be lowering calories like that, and getting way more accurate at the same time, probably causing even bigger double dip you might say.
That method is nice as long as you maintain the same level of accuracy, eat out and estimate the same, weigh food the same, or don't, ect.0 -
Well, weighed in this morning at 157.6! Sorry if TMI, but on Wednesday when I weighed I was mid-cycle so probably was experiencing some water retention as i usually do around that time. This morning's weigh in is actually great data to have because it was exactly the same time (same day, same point in my cycle) on November 19 that I weighed at 154.6. Which means 3lbs gained since then. All things considered, I think this is great! I had very real fears of my weight just climbing and climbing without end and I don't think that is the case. I will stay at this calorie level for another week and see where it brings me. I doubt I will continue to 'lose' but if I remain constant (which may not happen given that I'm heading into the latter half of my cycle) then it's time to reevaluate and perhaps launch haybales' +250 calorie TDEE test.0