Using fasts to break stalls
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cchild2
Posts: 47 Member
I stalled in a range last year for a long time, then got frustrated and went off LC and gained some back (20 lbs which included water weight). Got back on the wagon, lost, only to stall at the very same weight range. Again, holidays/stress/frustration and I gained the same 20 lbs back.
Lost the 20 again and have been in this range for 4 weeks so I decided to fo a multi-day fast Thurs noon till Sunday morning. About 67 hours. Of course I lost a ton of weight, some of which is probably water which I will gain back as some of my glycogen stores are built up. But I'm hoping I will start losing slowly again. It's frustrating when your body is fighting you as you try to lose. I'll check in a week and give an update.
Has anyone used this method to break stalls and how successful have you been?
Lost the 20 again and have been in this range for 4 weeks so I decided to fo a multi-day fast Thurs noon till Sunday morning. About 67 hours. Of course I lost a ton of weight, some of which is probably water which I will gain back as some of my glycogen stores are built up. But I'm hoping I will start losing slowly again. It's frustrating when your body is fighting you as you try to lose. I'll check in a week and give an update.
Has anyone used this method to break stalls and how successful have you been?
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Why did you choose three days?0
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Weren't you tracking wt when you fasted previously? I was tracking my wt when I fasted in October (about 80 hrs) and my weight before and after has been about the same. I think I can get the data in excel if you want to see it.0
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dhelsel1 - it looks like I lost 6 lbs total throughout the fast then gained back 3 lbs of water/glycogen/etc. I did workout during the fast so I had to have been using some bodyfat for fuel
But I am below my stalled range which I like and appear to be losing again, but we'll see in a week or two.
I chose three days because I wanted to end the fast at home rather than on a work day.0 -
I did workout during the fast so I had to have been using some bodyfat for fuel
This is not true, The amount fat or fuel you use in work out is dependent on Oxygen and C02 ratio also called as Respiratory Quotient, which is dependent on the intensity of the exercise. If you are going high intensity the body switches to glycogen/ATP and lactic acid. Its important people understand that just because you are not eating any carbs, you are burning some fat. The last thing you want is go low on carb and switch the body to use glycogen or ATPs produce by lactic acid in a work out.0 -
Quite true fattyman007. But with my glycogen stores already low and the fact I was doing HIIT and weights, I think I'm confident I lost some adipose tissue.
Do you read Peter Attia at The Eating Academy? He has some interesting writing and often talks about CO2 ratio, VOx, etc.0 -
Cchild, I am not saying you aren't burning any fat. I have seen people going on Keto and start doing high intensity workouts thinking they are burning fat. Burning fat depends on yourRQ threshold. I did read Dr Attia's blog, its great information from some one who is actually doing it, not just preaching. I do experiment a lot and do metabolic stress tests, VO2,RQ etc. every 3 months. I train for marathon/half and do other work outs at the same time, I closely monitor some of these things. Its important for any one on low carb diets to understand what happens in high intensity workouts.0
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Why is it important? What if I did 45 min of low intensity cardio? HIIT? Only weights? An hour of house work? If you have a general goal to lose fat (ie not training for a marathon), there might be a small difference in fat loss vs glycogen used, but if I continue to fast after my exercise, how different can they be? What am I not seeing?
I believe HIIT gives better results for less time compared to low intensity aerobic and I do weights for insulin resistance help.0 -
I will try to simplify with out writing a book of biochemistry. There are two zones (Simplified) Aerobic and anaerobic and doesn't depend on the diet you are eating for most part.
Aerobic zone is where you are theoretically supposed to get most of the energy from fat, however if you are eating high carb diets chances are you are burning more carbs even at much lower intensity. I would switch to predominantly Glycogen at around HR 98. Which is probably day to day walking or light activity. After I went Keto the threshold went up to 146. Now I burn predominantly fat even at a higher intensity.
Anaerobic Zone is where your body needs fuel much quicker than any fatty acids or ketones can provide. In this case the body uses ATP coming from Lactic acid and glycogen produced from liver. The only advantage you might see here on a low carb diet is, the body might be using 15% fat instead of 100% glycogen when you eat carbs.
Am I preaching this from a text book? No. I do lot of these tests at a university close to where I live. My blood glucose levels went up every time after doing an explosive workout. Also, my RQ was about 0.96( burning more than 85% Glycogen produced by liver) and 15% fat. I am just sharing my observations, I wouldn't put my body running on lactic acid or put my liver in over drive when you are glycogen starved.
People need to be aware that most of the material available today on HIIT or any exercise is based on predominantly High carb diets. Just because some one is on low carb diet doesn't mean the laws of physics and biochemistry don't apply to them. I do remember Attia putting up a video on his own results (can't find it now), but I think it was very consistent with what Volek and other guys have found too.0 -
You typed a lot but didn't answer my question. You said "Its important for any one on low carb diets to understand what happens in high intensity workouts.".
I asked "Why is it important? What if I did 45 min of low intensity cardio? HIIT? Only weights? An hour of house work? If you have a general goal to lose fat (ie not training for a marathon), there might be a small difference in fat loss vs glycogen used, but if I continue to fast after my exercise, how different can they be?"
So again, what is important? Is one not effective for fat loss? Is one dangerous? Is one heads and shoulders better than the others? In a 12+ hour fasted state, each of these will use fat for fuel.0 -
No. Just because you are fasting doesn't mean you will use fat as fuel during the exercise at high intensity. You can fast for 24 hrs but once you hit the threshold where fat can't fuel the body faster, it will switch to other sources. You need to talk to a Dr or some one before undertaking these experiments. If you do, let us know what you learnt. And please don't make statements like I am fasting and thats why I am burning fat in high intensity workouts. Its dangerous advice.0
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Still waiting to hear why it is important.0
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You typed a lot but didn't answer my question. You said "Its important for any one on low carb diets to understand what happens in high intensity workouts.".
I asked "Why is it important? What if I did 45 min of low intensity cardio? HIIT? Only weights? An hour of house work? If you have a general goal to lose fat (ie not training for a marathon), there might be a small difference in fat loss vs glycogen used, but if I continue to fast after my exercise, how different can they be?"
So again, what is important? Is one not effective for fat loss? Is one dangerous? Is one heads and shoulders better than the others? In a 12+ hour fasted state, each of these will use fat for fuel.
He did answer, you just aren't understanding him...0 -
I think there are two questions or issues being discussed. One is when he objected to my statement "I did workout during the fast so I had to have been using some bodyfat for fuel " I still stick by that statement. Clearly if I was doing aerobic type of exercises in a state of ketosis, I was using fat for fuel. I think we are in agreement there.
But even if I did solely anaerobic exercises, I was still burning some bodyfat for fuel. Disregard that the fact that the anaerobic threshold has probably been moved (as his testing has shown). But in ketosis, you are still burning some fat for fuel and not relying 100% on glycogen while doing anaerobic exercises. Fattyman007 even said he gets 15% of energy from fat during this state. So there is some agreement there. In addition, when doing high intensity anaerobic, you get a post exercise metabolism increase. Since this is in a glycogen depleted, oxygen-available state, you should be burning fat. (yeah!)
The second issue was my repeated requests for him to explain his statement "Its important for any one on low carb diets to understand what happens in high intensity workouts." Is the importance JUST that you may not be burning as much fat doing high intensity than you are doing low intensity exercise? Or is it something more significant? It would be significant if there net muscle loss due to gluconeogensis from anaerobic exercises in a glycogen depleted state. Is that the case? (I have read studies that show low carb diets are muscle sparing compared to other weight loss diets, however, I do not remember if these included weight training or not). This is why I kept asking why is it important. He even used the word "dangerous" so that implies the importance is more than just the fact you will be burning less fat compared to an equivalent amount of aerobic exercise.
With diabetes in my family and with some signs of pre-diabetes I have done a lot of research and weight lifting continues to come up as a great suggestion for diabetics as is low carb diets. However, regarding anaerobic exercise and low carb, Fattyman007 has stated the following quotes"
"The last thing you want is go low on carb and switch the body to use glycogen or ATPs produce by lactic acid in a work out. "
"Its important for any one on low carb diets to understand what happens in high intensity workouts. "
"I wouldn't put my body running on lactic acid or put my liver in over drive when you are glycogen starved. "
"And please don't make statements like I am fasting and thats why I am burning fat in high intensity workouts. Its dangerous advice. "
So again I ask, what is important? Is it just that I'm not maximizing fat loss or that I won't be at peak performance? Or is it truly something important (for me)? He is suggesting I don't lift weights while low carbing and would like to know why...0 -
:huh:
I've just skimmed most of this but I don't think he was saying not to lift while low carbing, I took it to be about doing high intensity workouts while doing a fast which should just be common sense as you aren't fueling your body enough to handle it which is why I'm guessing he posted all his information about "your body needs fuel much quicker than any fatty acids or ketones can provide" and why he was saying it wasn't fat being burnt as the main source of energy during the workouts but glycogen produced from liver which i've never researched it but I'm guessing that's not the best way to do things.
While fasting you're already taking in too few of calories to keep your body going and can break a stall without doing more than getting up to pee. So to push yourself to do HIIT or anything more than you have to in a day just doesn't make much sense if you want to workout hard you need to fuel your body doesn't matter if its a low carb lifestyle or not but meh I may be wrong.0 -
There is nothing wrong or dangerous about working out while fasted.0
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I use Carb cheat days to break stalls but that's because I've finally got to the point of Keto adaptation so It doesn't take me long to get back into ketosis. My suggestion would be to lock your scale away and buy a Body tape measure. I've been stuck at 174 for 2 weeks but I.ve gone from a 35" waist to a 33.5" waist. I too used the scale as a measure of success but now I use progress pictures. Take a picture of yourself once a month and compare the visible changes. Just keep in mind body composition is more important than weight.0
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I think there are two questions or issues being discussed. One is when he objected to my statement "I did workout during the fast so I had to have been using some bodyfat for fuel " I still stick by that statement. Clearly if I was doing aerobic type of exercises in a state of ketosis, I was using fat for fuel. I think we are in agreement there.
But even if I did solely anaerobic exercises, I was still burning some bodyfat for fuel. Disregard that the fact that the anaerobic threshold has probably been moved (as his testing has shown). But in ketosis, you are still burning some fat for fuel and not relying 100% on glycogen while doing anaerobic exercises. Fattyman007 even said he gets 15% of energy from fat during this state. So there is some agreement there. In addition, when doing high intensity anaerobic, you get a post exercise metabolism increase. Since this is in a glycogen depleted, oxygen-available state, you should be burning fat. (yeah!)
The second issue was my repeated requests for him to explain his statement "Its important for any one on low carb diets to understand what happens in high intensity workouts." Is the importance JUST that you may not be burning as much fat doing high intensity than you are doing low intensity exercise? Or is it something more significant? It would be significant if there net muscle loss due to gluconeogensis from anaerobic exercises in a glycogen depleted state. Is that the case? (I have read studies that show low carb diets are muscle sparing compared to other weight loss diets, however, I do not remember if these included weight training or not). This is why I kept asking why is it important. He even used the word "dangerous" so that implies the importance is more than just the fact you will be burning less fat compared to an equivalent amount of aerobic exercise.
With diabetes in my family and with some signs of pre-diabetes I have done a lot of research and weight lifting continues to come up as a great suggestion for diabetics as is low carb diets. However, regarding anaerobic exercise and low carb, Fattyman007 has stated the following quotes"
"The last thing you want is go low on carb and switch the body to use glycogen or ATPs produce by lactic acid in a work out. "
"Its important for any one on low carb diets to understand what happens in high intensity workouts. "
"I wouldn't put my body running on lactic acid or put my liver in over drive when you are glycogen starved. "
"And please don't make statements like I am fasting and thats why I am burning fat in high intensity workouts. Its dangerous advice. "
So again I ask, what is important? Is it just that I'm not maximizing fat loss or that I won't be at peak performance? Or is it truly something important (for me)? He is suggesting I don't lift weights while low carbing and would like to know why...
Is lifting weight Anaerobic? Not unless you are jumping with weights on. I never suggested don't lift, my comments were on HIIT.I have seen people push hard when they are just starting on Keto (Fasting or not). I know some one who was doing insanity along with keto, gave up half way blaming the diet. Performance is a whole different issue than burning fat or glycogen, if you are competing and care about performance follow Ben Greenfield.0 -
Still waiting to hear why it is important.
Really dude? He answered you, but obviously the obtuse is strong with you.0 -
Perhaps I am obtuse. Maybe you (birdiecs) can simplify it for me, why is it important NOT to use glycogen or lactic acid to make ATP while doing low carb? This seems to be important, but I'd like to know why. Take it a step further, that is all I am asking.
Fattyman007 - sorry if I inferred that you recommended not doing weights on low carb. But in trying to figure out for myself the answer to my question, my line of thinking was weight lifting--> anaerobic-->need quick fuel-->can't use fatty acids quickly-->uses lactic acid/liver glycogen instead-->"I wouldn't put my body running on lactic acid or put my liver in over drive when you are glycogen starved. "
That is why I thought you implied not to do weights during low carb. The incorrect step in this thought train is that weight lifting is not anaerobic? If you'd rather, we can discuss this through private message, but others might be interested in this discussion.0
