calories in vs. calories out
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Quinnstinct
Posts: 274 Member
I haven't really spent any time on the general forums but WOW are people tied to the calories in vs. calories out theory to the point of name calling. I personally don't believe 200 calories of processed chemically laden packaged food is the same as 200 calories of fresh veggies or grass fed meats (thank you paleo for teaching me this). I understand eating too much is always eating too much no matter what it is but, at least for me, it makes a difference what I eat. For example, Weight Watchers no longer works for me- I've done too much yo-yo dieting to be able to eat fat free boxed foods and lose weight anymore. What do you all think? (And I haven't quite been here a year so if I'm poking a dead horse I'm sorry.)
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Yup, that's my problem with the "calories in/calories out" crowd. And all my personal experience, and everything i've ever seen is all just "anecdote". It's so illogical to think that the food doesn't matter to health that there's no point in arguing with people that think otherwise. Because of my experience with malnutrition and the resulting problems in my brain/body, which were all resolved by switching to a keto Paleo lifestyle, I have come to the conclusion that people who can't think logically are also malnourished. I can understand choosing to eat garbage foods, but to justify it and argue that it's just as healthy as foods from nature? Yeah, right.
The processed food manufacturers, chem/agri/pharma industries are all just ecstatic that the majority of people are blissfully ignorant that quality of food matters and the few of us who have clued in to what's happening to food and our health are just dismissed by the masses as "crazy" or "conspiracy theorists". Well, at least I'm the healthiest crazy person ever.
PS. I have the biggest hate-on for WW. They have destroyed the health of far too many people in my family, including myself, for me to have any love at all for them. They won't ever get another cent from me and I'll do everything I can to keep others from giving them their cash too. Thanks WW for teaching me how to get as sick and fat as possible!0 -
The calories in/calories out crowd and those who brag about being able to eat fast food while still losing weight are just looking for an excuse or justification to eat like crap. Common sense tells us that WHOLE foods and FRESH foods are better for you than processed junk but sometimes being stubborn will override common sense.0
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I think it was the vehemence that struck me, there didn't seem to be any live and let live opinions.0
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I think it was the vehemence that struck me, there didn't seem to be any live and let live opinions.
For me it's the ridicule and the discrediting of my personal experience... Yes, definite vehemence as if their life is directly threatened by the Paleo lifestyle (it's convinced me that there are a few food industry reps that are paid to be here full time just to debunk Paleo, keto, clean eating etc- trust me, General Mills et al. have the cash and yes, they would stoop that low). It blows my mind so mostly I avoid the general forums. I might drop a comment here and there and run. If someone genuinely wants to know something about Paleo and they asked in the General Forum, I'll usually advise them to go to this forum specifically so they can avoid the BS and get some clear answers.
It makes me sad that I've had to pull back from providing advice that might actually save someone's life, if they're ready to hear it, but hopefully they figure it out somehow on their own just like I did. Unfortunately, the advice they usually get in the forums is worse than what they'll get by Googling. Critical thinking skills are in short supply these days. Common sense is not common.0 -
I guess for me I just don't want to have that kind of a relationship with food. I saw someone today posting that she was many many calories over today and was bummed because she'd eaten her "allotment" day after day when she wasn't hungry. Everyone seems to emphasize "eating all your calories" and to an extent, I get why. But why not also follow natural body rhythms? I am rarely hungry when my period comes, and ravenous just before. Why not eat when I'm truly wanting to?
And yes, "if it fits your macros". I've seen diaries where they hit all their macros, without a single thing I'd call "food".
I get that some folks can't eat intuitively. And I have a few ideas why that's the case for some. A "healthier" diet may actually help with that, but I won't say that on the main boards.
And yes, the mocking and ridiculing of my personal experience, and calling me out when I stand up for anyone NOT eating at SAD/IIFYM style diet. Mine's not sustainable? Well, guess what I've sustained if for a decade at maintenance. So I'd say it works for me. cheers0 -
I tried weight watchers for about a week (my wife was suggesting I try something other than Atkins), even went to the meetings, 10 women sitting around swapping chemical formulas and not having a clue about nutritional facts, everything was a desert dish too. I have always tried to eat healthy even when I was heavy, I just ate too much of it and the grains were supposed to be good for me. After they all divulged their respective weight loss for the week, I think one lost 5 most other lost maybe one, I proudly stated I had lost 8 and they all asked "how in the world did I do that?" well I am not stuffing my face with aspartame that is for sure. I got out of there and went back to Atkins. What a scam.0
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I guess for me I just don't want to have that kind of a relationship with food. I saw someone today posting that she was many many calories over today and was bummed because she'd eaten her "allotment" day after day when she wasn't hungry. Everyone seems to emphasize "eating all your calories" and to an extent, I get why. But why not also follow natural body rhythms? I am rarely hungry when my period comes, and ravenous just before. Why not eat when I'm truly wanting to?
And yes, "if it fits your macros". I've seen diaries where they hit all their macros, without a single thing I'd call "food".
I get that some folks can't eat intuitively. And I have a few ideas why that's the case for some. A "healthier" diet may actually help with that, but I won't say that on the main boards.
And yes, the mocking and ridiculing of my personal experience, and calling me out when I stand up for anyone NOT eating at SAD/IIFYM style diet. Mine's not sustainable? Well, guess what I've sustained if for a decade at maintenance. So I'd say it works for me. cheers
Oooh, that's the thing I hate the most - the "it's not sustainable"/"not balanced"/"not healthy" crowd. They somehow have it in their heads that "balanced" equates to eating everything that's even vaguely considered edible. Seriously, I never see anyone make that argument to a vegetarian, why do it to us?
I think Akima isn't far off, but I think part of it, too, is that grains/sugar really are addictive. The arguments/justifications I see from a lot of the people that mock Paleo for not being "balanced" or whatever are similar to those made by people addicted to other things (not necessarily ingested substances, but also things like gambling or whatever).
How often have you seen that people eat (or eat certain things) for emotional reasons? "I do this to cope with my pain."
How often do you hear them say that going Paleo means no more going out with friends? "I need this to be social."
Claim they can stop eating X whenever they want, but they choose not to? "I'm not addicted, I can stop whenever I want."
Claim Paleo doesn't work, because the first week (and only week they tried it) was miserable? "I want to stop, but treatment doesn't work."
Use the "you only live once" line? "We're all going to die, anyway. Might as well spend it like this."
How is that healthy in anyone's mind? Of course, they all say that anyone can lose weight if they just eat less and move more, but no one questions why a) people are eating more to begin with, or b) why counting calories is required for so many people to stay on target.
Anywho, done with my rant. I need to go to bed.0 -
I've posted this before but there is an excellent part of an article by Taubes:“The fundamental cause of obesity and overweight is an energy imbalance between calories consumed on one hand, and calories expended on the other hand.”
But now imagine that instead of talking about why we get fat, we’re talking about a different system entirely. This kind of gedanken (thought) experiment is always a good way to examine the viability of your assumptions about any particular problem. Say instead of talking about why fat tissue accumulates too much energy, we want to know why a particular restaurant gets so crowded. Now the energy we’re talking about is contained in entire people rather than just the fat in their fat tissue. Ten people contain so much energy; eleven people contain more, etc.. So what we want to know is why this restaurant is crowded and so over-stuffed with energy (i.e., people) and maybe why some other restaurant down the block has remained relatively empty — lean.
If you asked me this question — why did this restaurant get crowded? — and I said, well, the restaurant got crowded (it got overstuffed with energy) because more people entered the restaurant than left it, you’d probably think I was being a wise guy or an idiot. (If I worked for the World Health Organization, I’d tell you that “the fundamental cause of the crowded restaurant is an energy imbalance between people entering on one hand, and people exiting on the other hand.”) Of course, more people entered than left, you’d say. That’s obvious. But why? And, in fact, saying that a restaurant gets crowded because more people are entering than leaving it is redundant –saying the same thing in two different ways – and so meaningless.
Full article: http://garytaubes.com/2010/12/inanity-of-overeating/0 -
Agree. 100%. I'm not pale, but I get and respect it. I try to appreciate everyone's approach here that's balanced and healthy and that they've considered before diving into.I guess for me I just don't want to have that kind of a relationship with food. I saw someone today posting that she was many many calories over today and was bummed because she'd eaten her "allotment" day after day when she wasn't hungry. Everyone seems to emphasize "eating all your calories" and to an extent, I get why. But why not also follow natural body rhythms? I am rarely hungry when my period comes, and ravenous just before. Why not eat when I'm truly wanting to?
And yes, "if it fits your macros". I've seen diaries where they hit all their macros, without a single thing I'd call "food".
I get that some folks can't eat intuitively. And I have a few ideas why that's the case for some. A "healthier" diet may actually help with that, but I won't say that on the main boards.
And yes, the mocking and ridiculing of my personal experience, and calling me out when I stand up for anyone NOT eating at SAD/IIFYM style diet. Mine's not sustainable? Well, guess what I've sustained if for a decade at maintenance. So I'd say it works for me. cheers
Oooh, that's the thing I hate the most - the "it's not sustainable"/"not balanced"/"not healthy" crowd. They somehow have it in their heads that "balanced" equates to eating everything that's even vaguely considered edible. Seriously, I never see anyone make that argument to a vegetarian, why do it to us?
I think Akima isn't far off, but I think part of it, too, is that grains/sugar really are addictive. The arguments/justifications I see from a lot of the people that mock Paleo for not being "balanced" or whatever are similar to those made by people addicted to other things (not necessarily ingested substances, but also things like gambling or whatever).
How often have you seen that people eat (or eat certain things) for emotional reasons? "I do this to cope with my pain."
How often do you hear them say that going Paleo means no more going out with friends? "I need this to be social."
Claim they can stop eating X whenever they want, but they choose not to? "I'm not addicted, I can stop whenever I want."
Claim Paleo doesn't work, because the first week (and only week they tried it) was miserable? "I want to stop, but treatment doesn't work."
Use the "you only live once" line? "We're all going to die, anyway. Might as well spend it like this."
How is that healthy in anyone's mind? Of course, they all say that anyone can lose weight if they just eat less and move more, but no one questions why a) people are eating more to begin with, or b) why counting calories is required for so many people to stay on target.
Anywho, done with my rant. I need to go to bed.
I don't get how "paleo" or my "slow carb/south beach" ISN'T sustainable, but counting, measuring and weighing is.
I don't get how skipping beans, or skipping white bread isn't sustainable but eating one piece of dominos pizza forever rather than four is.
I'm not saying those folks WONT do that forever. I just don't get how they declare theirs (which seems harder to me).
I try to respect everyone's experiences. Apparently, to some, it doesn't come across that way, it comes across as bashing IIFYM. I'm not doing that either. I just question their blind and dogged allegiance to it (especially when it's all junk food). Are we so brain washed that only a processed food diet "in moderation" is the only way to go?
ETA: I also wonder how "moderate" and sustainable that approach will be as folks age and their metabolisms slow down and their allotted "discretionary calories" pile gets smaller and smaller.
ps: thanks for allowing me to vent here!0 -
I am always shocked at the amount of judgment I receive when people learn that we are paleo and so are our children. They always say "they do not need to loose weight" ... and I am always like "your right" they are not loosing weight...and that is not why we eat paleo. I cook from scratch every meal breakfast, lunch, dinner and snack while they "loving" fill" their little Johnnys lunch with twinkes, lunchables, sodas and bags of chips. Sometimes I just shake my head. I have been told it is abusive or that I am ruining their little tummies etc. We started this journey because 2 of the family are lactose intolerant, and 2 are gluten intolerant and a few have issues with auto immune disorders and it worked for us. Period. I cringe a little when I have to explain why we do not wish to participate in "taco" night or whatever as it generally tends to inflame people. I think, "Live and let live!".0
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I'm always stunned by the fierce devotion folks have to the S.A.D. and how angry they get when folks like Michelle Obama want to change labels to educate people. Good for you for cooking for your kids!I am always shocked at the amount of judgment I receive when people learn that we are paleo and so are our children. They always say "they do not need to loose weight" ... and I am always like "your right" they are not loosing weight...and that is not why we eat paleo. I cook from scratch every meal breakfast, lunch, dinner and snack while they "loving" fill" their little Johnnys lunch with twinkes, lunchables, sodas and bags of chips. Sometimes I just shake my head. I have been told it is abusive or that I am ruining their little tummies etc. We started this journey because 2 of the family are lactose intolerant, and 2 are gluten intolerant and a few have issues with auto immune disorders and it worked for us. Period. I cringe a little when I have to explain why we do not wish to participate in "taco" night or whatever as it generally tends to inflame people. I think, "Live and let live!".0 -
I'm always stunned by the fierce devotion folks have to the S.A.D. and how angry they get when folks like Michelle Obama want to change labels to educate people. Good for you for cooking for your kids!I am always shocked at the amount of judgment I receive when people learn that we are paleo and so are our children. They always say "they do not need to loose weight" ... and I am always like "your right" they are not loosing weight...and that is not why we eat paleo. I cook from scratch every meal breakfast, lunch, dinner and snack while they "loving" fill" their little Johnnys lunch with twinkes, lunchables, sodas and bags of chips. Sometimes I just shake my head. I have been told it is abusive or that I am ruining their little tummies etc. We started this journey because 2 of the family are lactose intolerant, and 2 are gluten intolerant and a few have issues with auto immune disorders and it worked for us. Period. I cringe a little when I have to explain why we do not wish to participate in "taco" night or whatever as it generally tends to inflame people. I think, "Live and let live!".
SAD?0 -
SAD?
SAD = Standard American Diet0 -
Yes, the Standard American Diet. It's S.A.D. :flowerforyou:SAD?
SAD = Standard American Diet0 -
Oh, OK. Gotcha.
I am happy that the nutrition labels are changing, especially with a focus on more realistic serving sizes.0 -
I am always shocked at the amount of judgment I receive when people learn that we are paleo and so are our children. They always say "they do not need to loose weight" ... and I am always like "your right" they are not loosing weight...and that is not why we eat paleo. I cook from scratch every meal breakfast, lunch, dinner and snack while they "loving" fill" their little Johnnys lunch with twinkes, lunchables, sodas and bags of chips. Sometimes I just shake my head. I have been told it is abusive or that I am ruining their little tummies etc. We started this journey because 2 of the family are lactose intolerant, and 2 are gluten intolerant and a few have issues with auto immune disorders and it worked for us. Period. I cringe a little when I have to explain why we do not wish to participate in "taco" night or whatever as it generally tends to inflame people. I think, "Live and let live!".
I experience a bit of the same. It's "abusive" to refuse to feed children foods than will make them sick or potentially set them up for a lifetime struggle with obesity? The school here says they support what I do but they still feed my child wheat (they aren't supposed to) and have "treat" days. Yup a "no sugar" school purposefully makes sugary treats and gives them to the kids. The Principal rewards good behaviour in her office with a candy. The only thing my child has listed as an "allergy" is artificial sweeteners but I know she is getting fed them here to because people here do NOT ever read ingredients. But my child cannot bring oranges, nuts, fish, or other normal foods into the school because of "allergies". Wheat is the most allergenic substance and yet it is always untouchable; boggles the mind.
What people often can't/won't understand is that we WANT to eat how we eat. We LOVE feeling great and having healthy bodies and minds. I'm not deprived and I'm not excluding healthy food. The improvements in my child's health (and mine) have been astounding. We do still occasionally have non Paleo treats, but we are much better off when we don't. (I never eat wheat, but my child gets it anywhere she goes outside of our home!)0 -
Ya, I agree. I find it so frustrating - they act like it's a law and that nothing else matters.
Eat twinkies and garbage all day and stay in a calorie deficit with hours of cardio, they all clap their hands and congratulate you. Decide you want to focus on eating veggies, meat, and dropping processed foods and grains and everyone goes crazy.
Here's an article I particularly enjoyed from a couple days ago that covers this topic.
http://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/a-calorie-is-sometimes-not-a-calorie0 -
Thanks! I appreciate that...it is not easy to work and still totally embrace the lifestyle change needed to be serious Paleo/Primal. I can anything I can to avoid the sugars and high sodiums. I make the mayo, the "ranch", plum ketchup...all the condiments as well as all the daily meals. But hey my family and I are worth it!0
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I agree that the school is the worst about supporting an honest approach to nutrition in our children. I have my boys listed as gluten and dairy intolerant at school and they still are offered cake, ice cream, and what ever else they deem as a treat at parties etc. I make sure I know these dates and times and send my boys to school with a paleo treat and never volunteer to send the candy that the school wants, I just take care of mine. It is all you can do. My local school has decided that it is a good idea to sell the children ice cream on the playground, everyday! and these are the people who are educating my children on health and nutrition. What a mess....I just educate mine every chance I get and make sure they know all the foods to be on alert for with each of their different intolerances. It works right up till the point they have to go to another non custodial parent for a weekend and are fed all the stuff that makes them sick by Monday morning or starve. Frustrating but so nice to see some support here with this group! Anyone, feel free to add me! Happy Friday!0
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We have this problem at school too and it drives me nuts! My kids are given candy as rewards for doing well academically. I have mentioned that I don't want them rewarded with food on the start of year information sheets (and that we we are GF) but it is ignored. Luckily, my gluten intolerant son cares about his health and understands the consequences but he is still offered crap all the time. Right now the school is having a contest for February where, if the child achieves 60+ items on a checklist they get a t shirt, the items include getting 60 minutes of exercise, eating 5 fruits and veggies, and, yes, not having candy or soda. Um, way to sabotage when they get candy at school.I agree that the school is the worst about supporting an honest approach to nutrition in our children. I have my boys listed as gluten and dairy intolerant at school and they still are offered cake, ice cream, and what ever else they deem as a treat at parties etc. I make sure I know these dates and times and send my boys to school with a paleo treat and never volunteer to send the candy that the school wants, I just take care of mine. It is all you can do. My local school has decided that it is a good idea to sell the children ice cream on the playground, everyday! and these are the people who are educating my children on health and nutrition. What a mess....I just educate mine every chance I get and make sure they know all the foods to be on alert for with each of their different intolerances. It works right up till the point they have to go to another non custodial parent for a weekend and are fed all the stuff that makes them sick by Monday morning or starve. Frustrating but so nice to see some support here with this group! Anyone, feel free to add me! Happy Friday!0
