Split squats vs. bilateral squats - thoughts?
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ferocityturbine
Posts: 110 Member
I have real real issues with squats. I can't get anywhere near parallel with bodyweight squats without literally falling over backwards as my centre of gravity is too far back... but that's another discussion. In an ideal world I'd like to be able to do back squats, but there are a lot of issues to be ironed out and, as I'd like to start llifting now without having to spend weeks seeing if flexibility work could get me to a point where I could safely add weight, I'm thinking about incorporating rear foot elevated split squats instead (I'm planning on starting All Pro's beginner routine).
My question is, will I be disadvantaged by doing split squats over back squats? Do split squats hit the same muscles and work the stabilisers and the core in the same way as bilateral squats? I know there are a lot of different variations on the squat, but I haven't seen much discussion of advantages/disadvantages of the variations beyond what works for an individual's biomechanics/previous injury.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts!
My question is, will I be disadvantaged by doing split squats over back squats? Do split squats hit the same muscles and work the stabilisers and the core in the same way as bilateral squats? I know there are a lot of different variations on the squat, but I haven't seen much discussion of advantages/disadvantages of the variations beyond what works for an individual's biomechanics/previous injury.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts!
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Replies
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Practice bodyweight box squats for form and stability?0
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Hard to keep balance on body weight squats because there's not weight on your back. Try having your arms out forward to help counter balance.
Or post a video so we can see what you are doing.0 -
I should clarify: I'm not saying I'm not going to work on my squats, just that I'd like to start a lifting program now, with split squats, while I work on my messy squat and make sure I'm safe to add weight.
I've just taken a video - can't believe I'm going to post this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqzPq6z1llQ
I do go lower than I thought, but I'm almost tipping backwards at this depth. My heels are rising, but it isn't through lack of calf flexibility - that's me trying to get enough of my weight forwards to stop myself falling backwards. I don't see how any more depth would be possible and with my lack of stability and teetering balance, I wouldn't feel at all safe adding any weight to this.
Hence my question: would I be that disadvantaged doing split squats instead?0 -
Have you tried without the shoes?
Also if you look at where the bar would sit (if you did a highbar) it looks to me like it would move your center of gravity forward a bit. (IOW the weight would help stabilize you.)
(Also the extra weight of a bar helps squash you down better, I'm not sure how to describe it, but it helps me a lot.)0 -
Hard to see with pure side view, but I bet wider stance would help this situation.
Also the heels start rising at about 1/4 squat, so I would definitely look into mobility work.
For improvement with a goal of ultimately being able to do standard squats, I'd suggest goblet squats.
Split squats are a fine exercise, but I don't think they'll help resolve this issue.0 -
Tagging for a fuller response.
However, split squats are always a good idea to add into a routine if you can.0 -
Willing to bet you'd be fine with a bar, as it does shift your center of gravity more to the centre, based on your vid. Just keep your heels down. FWIW, you would be better off barefoot than in running shoes, in my experience.0
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You can also try squats and lounges with TRX which will help you with your balance. You can also progress to air squats easier with TRX, at least that's my experience as I too had problem with balance.0
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Thanks for all the responses so far. It's been a bit of a tangent from my original question, but advice is always welcome
The running shoes correct my pronation, whereas barefoot I pronate which causes my knees to cave inwards. I have problematic lower limb biomechanics - internally rotated hips and externally rotated knees - which makes tracking my knees over my toes difficult. I seem to be able to control this with a split squat, but it's going to need some work to make regular squats work. I've ordered some resistance bands and I'm hoping that squatting with these will help train my knees to go in the right direction, but again I'm impatient to start lifting whilst alongside working on these issues - hence the split squat question.
As for keeping my heels down, surely I'd need to balance that out with getting my knees further forwards and I thought knees weren't supposed to go further forward than toes? Or is that not right?
I hadn't thought about the weight of the bar actually helping bring the weight forwards. I'm lucky in that the gym I've just joined has a small women's only free weights area (very lacking in equipment) which is always empty with a few light barbells where I can practice before going into the main free weights room and seeing what happens with the 45lb bar. I assumed it would be better to nail form on bodyweight regular squats before even thinking about putting anything on my back?0 -
You are on the right track. First, split squats are great and you should do them while you work on the back squat form. Second, body weight squats are very different than barbell back squats. I use body weight squats to get the joints loose and remind my body how to bend at the knees. I have to hold my arms out in front of me parallel to the ground just to keep from falling over backwards and then I still tip backwards a bit. Once the empty bar gets back there, all is right in the world.
I say put the bar on and see how it feels. Just sit back, go all the way down (*kitten* to grass) and feel everything out at the bottom. Move the angle of your toes in and out and see how they align with your knees. Cave your knees in and then push them out real hard and see how that feels at the bottom. Note where your knees are relative to your toes (fore and aft). Lean forward and back a bit just to see how the weight feels on your toes, then your heels, then in the middle. I usually do some tension work at the bottom with an empty bar to get the hammies and achilles loosened up a bit. This is just wigglig around and bouncing a bit to feel where the tension is. Then I push up out of the bottom and get ready to excel. My first warmup set is always an empty bar and I spend extra time feeling this all out. Every time I squat. I learn something each time.
Tom0 -
Knees can track past the toes if need be. It's not a problem. The other, and I would say preferable solution for most people, is to maintain a more upright posture but that requires more flexibility in the ankles and hips.
I'm not sure I agree there is a direct transition from bodyweight squatting > barbell squatting. Although the movement is similar, the mechanics are very different because of the extra weight moving your center of gravity. If your gym has fixed weight bars, start with a 25lb bar or similar to see how you feel before advancing to the 45lbs bar.
An anecdote; my girlfriend is about 115lbs and could handle the 45lb bar fine after establishing her balance, and she does basically zero exercise ever. Of course you may have a slightly different experience, but I imagine you're certainly strong enough to handle the bar.0 -
I'm really no expert, but I'll throw this out there and others can comment on whether they think it is a good idea. Also, for what it's worth I managed to get into my 50s without ever thinking about how to do a squat, so by the time I started I may not have been quite as nimble.
I have some low back issues, and doubt I will ever try to squat under a bar.
I didn't find body-weight squats challenging at first, but they quickly brought me to a bad case of runners knee, and that's when I started reading about form and the need to prevent my knees from traveling too far forward.
But then I had the same problem you're describing - I was having trouble getting to good depth because I felt I was going to fall over backwards. My solution was that I started using a rope tied to a door knob as a way to overcome the fear of falling over. Imagine that you are facing the edge of an open door. You have a rope or cord that goes from one hand, around both sides of the door knob and back to the other hand. Facing the door prevents you from moving too far forward. You can also use a towel
I was already doing something like this based on a pulling exercise described in YAYOG. Here is a video for Let me Ins:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPvK5FamZKY
Since I was already doing those, using a similar set up for squats seemed natural to me.
Having the reassurance that I could catch myself allowed me to worry less about falling backwards and spend more time thinking about the movement and traveling as low as I could. At first I didn't hesitate to put some tension on the rope if need be, but the goal was to keep it slack and just use for re-assurance rather than actually depending on it. In short order I found I could keep it totally slack. At that point, body weight squats were too easy for me. I have since been doing goblet and split squats. That sounds like the same path you're on anyway.
Anyway, I know you've already received some good advice, but hope this was helpful as well.0 -
I should clarify: I'm not saying I'm not going to work on my squats, just that I'd like to start a lifting program now, with split squats, while I work on my messy squat and make sure I'm safe to add weight.
I've just taken a video - can't believe I'm going to post this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqzPq6z1llQ
I do go lower than I thought, but I'm almost tipping backwards at this depth. My heels are rising, but it isn't through lack of calf flexibility - that's me trying to get enough of my weight forwards to stop myself falling backwards. I don't see how any more depth would be possible and with my lack of stability and teetering balance, I wouldn't feel at all safe adding any weight to this.
Hence my question: would I be that disadvantaged doing split squats instead?
A couple of suggestions;
- ditch the shoes, they are not good for stability. Go barefoot or wear chucks, vibrams or some other flat non compression soled shoe
- try goblet squats and focus on breaking at the hips and sitting back - practice as it may be a mobility issue (ankles)
- try practicing with a slightly elevated heel - if you have plates, put 5lb ones under your heels.
- try different stance widths
- the barbell changes your center of gravity so I would give it a go. Use a power cage or squat rack for safety.
- it is fine for your knees to go over your toes as long as you are balanced re center of gravity and your form is good. You have long limbs so your are likely to go over.
- when you squat, open your hips and get your knees to track your toes - push them out during the squat if you need to do this so they do not cave (re your comment re hips/knees).0
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