Transgender Woman Sues CrossFit
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http://deadspin.com/transgender-woman-sues-crossfit-for-not-letting-her-com-1538388290
Here is an interesting story.
Thoughts??
Here is an interesting story.
A transgender woman filed lawsuit against CrossFit on Thursday, claiming that the company rejected her from competing in the women's division because of her gender at birth.
Chloie Jonsson had sex reassignment surgery in 2006 and is legally a woman, according to the State of California. She's also participated in female hormone therapy, which cancels out testosterone's effect on the body. But CrossFit denied her the ability to compete with other women because she was born a man. In response, Jonsson filed a civil complaint in Santa Cruz Superior Court against the company seeking $2.5 million in damages. The suit also accuses CrossFit of discrimination, intentional infliction of emotional distress and unfair competition.
Thoughts??
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I don't know enough about hormone replacement therapy to say if CF was right or not. In my experience at my box, most of the men are stronger than most of the women. As far as the strength exercises go, the men definitely seem to have an advantage. If her therapy really makes her physiology "equal" to a woman's, then I'd say that she definitely should be allowed to compete in the female category.0
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When I first heard of this, I thought that it would indeed be an unfair advantage that she has over other women. Not thinking about the hormones, I was thinking that her physical being, muscles, bone structure, is capable of doing more in CF than a naturally born woman. I didn't consider the hormonal therapy but that is a valid point. I'm leaning toward that she still has the physical advantage.0
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It is a question of fair sport. Chloie Jonsson is 34 years old and had sex reassignment surgery in 2006. There must be permanent and irreversible differences in her body's skeletal muscular makeup caused by developing for 27-28 years as a man. While surgery and hormone therapy may negate the anabolic effects of male sex hormones now, what about the effects caused through her development?0
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http://games.crossfit.com/athlete/161983
She is 5'4" and 151 lbs so it is not like she has a great physical advantage over other female athletes.0 -
So, should we allow someone born a woman that has gone through the same process to become a man and is doped up on testosterone to compete as a man?
All of this gets into some really grey areas.0 -
http://games.crossfit.com/athlete/161983
She is 5'4" and 151 lbs so it is not like she has a great physical advantage over other female athletes.
That is beside the point. This is philosophical issue, not an issue with her physical size. What if she was 6' 0" and 180 lbs? Now the situation looks different. Whatever is decided needs to be applicable to all such situations in the future. It needs to apply to all sizes, whether the person in question is or is not taking hormones, and weather it is former man competing as a women or a former woman competing as a man.0 -
Is she is legally a woman then she should be allowed to compete as a woman, end of story.0
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I don't know enough about hormone replacement therapy to say if CF was right or not. In my experience at my box, most of the men are stronger than most of the women. As far as the strength exercises go, the men definitely seem to have an advantage. If her therapy really makes her physiology "equal" to a woman's, then I'd say that she definitely should be allowed to compete in the female category.
Agree 100%0 -
I do not know if this is a relevant situation or not. But, when Renee Richards turned tennis pro, she definitely had an advantage. She was older, and if she had still been physically male she never would have made the male tour. No way. Yet, she made the women's tour. So, the level of her tennis as a woman was higher.
I think it is unfair to all the other women. Is it sad for her that she cannot compete? Sure. But, it is not fair to have one person's circumstances run all over the rights of other people who have worked very hard. In a more serious situation than sports, maybe. But not here. You cannot prove that hormone therapy resets her equal to a naturally born woman.0 -
Completely agree tufel0
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I do not know if this is a relevant situation or not. But, when Renee Richards turned tennis pro, she definitely had an advantage. She was older, and if she had still been physically male she never would have made the male tour. No way. Yet, she made the women's tour. So, the level of her tennis as a woman was higher.
I think it is unfair to all the other women. Is it sad for her that she cannot compete? Sure. But, it is not fair to have one person's circumstances run all over the rights of other people who have worked very hard. In a more serious situation than sports, maybe. But not here. You cannot prove that hormone therapy resets her equal to a naturally born woman.
You can't?0 -
Once simple thing: DNA. She still has the DNA of a man, which despite her emotional state and sexual identity, means she is genetically a man.
If you open the door to this, then you have to allow general hormone replacement for men, steroids, etc.0 -
^ Sure. What or who are you going to compare her to? You cannot compare how strong she is as a woman to how strong she was as a man, we don't know how strong she was.
How do you know, therefore, that she is not stronger having been born a man than the same person would have been -- with the same genetics -- if born a woman. If having had higher levels of testosterone for many years gave her an advantage, that is an unfair advantage.
That is comparing her to her. But also, it is equally impossible to compare her to other female competitors, adequately.
We cannot compare her bench press because everyone is different. Maybe some woman would be stronger than her, but what about speed and endurance and size, etc.
That is, in some sense, the whole reason for the competition is to compare -- who is fitter, who is stronger. But you cannot let her compete because it is not fair if she knocks off some woman who never had her initial advantages.
I go back to Renee Richards, who is just one person, but she perhaps is representative. In 1972, Richards played in the over-35 men's national championship, and made the finals but did not win. Seven years later -- a long time in tennis years -- she WON the over-35 women's national championship.
As a man, Richards was not even competing as a tour pro. Richards was too old. As a woman, more than a few years later, she got ranked as the top 20th player in the world.
Now, maybe she had no advantage having been a man. But how are you going to prove that? Especially when the results suggest she probably did.0 -
Legal or not she's got a natural born muscular advantage. Btw, 151 is fairly heavy for a woman who is 5'4, but it's a pretty average weight for a man of the same height. I'm 5'4 and 115#. That extra muscle weight is natural for her.0
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She kept her transgender statusa secret until CrossFit publically outed her. She seems to be suing because of that and not because she was denied access to the game's women's division.
If she is upset for being outed, I think she could have opted not to do the games and had a discussion with the organizers. That way she could have settled this privately0 -
I have a cousin who is transgender. He was born a female, but always always identified as male. He has not (to my knowledge) begun hormone replacement therapy. As a girl, he was extremely active in soccer, basketball and other sports. Now, not so much.
My point in this is that you will most likely NEVER see a female become a male and want to compete in physical events. It's usually the males who become (through therapy and surgery..obviously...) females who then want to compete as their new identifiable gender. I'm not saying this is intentional, though for some it could totally be intentional (human nature is proof enough for me).
Those who become men after growing up as a young woman no longer (in most cases) are able to compete at a level where they would win. It's the opposite for those who grow up as a male and become female. A part of me can't help but think that psychologically, those who become female now finally feel that they have an advantage where as a smaller male, they didn't. I dunno though. Human nature leads me to believe that Chloie is not just doing the Open to be altruistic and inspiring. Nope. She's probably in it to win it, or at least compete until she gets to a level where she can win it. She wants to add it to her profile as a personal trainer. It's something that could boost her name further. She sees what the competitive athletes get from sponsors and she wants it.
It's a total gray area and one that HQ should treat with utmost care and diligence. Not all people are trying to take advantage of the system, but there are those who will and will totally run with it.0 -
She kept her transgender statusa secret until CrossFit publically outed her. She seems to be suing because of that and not because she was denied access to the game's women's division.
If she is upset for being outed, I think she could have opted not to do the games and had a discussion with the organizers. That way she could have settled this privately
CF didn't publically out her. The decision to not allow her to compete was for the 2013 Open/Games. The general public didn't know about her transgender status until she filed the lawsuit. It's interesting they timed filing the lawsuit at the start of the Open.0 -
Is she is legally a woman then she should be allowed to compete as a woman, end of story.
This. She is a woman. Period...end of.0 -
Just a question, does anybody know how Crossfit even found out she was born a man?0
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Just a question, does anybody know how Crossfit even found out she was born a man?
From the CNN.com article:
"The lawsuit alleges that a CrossFit teammate of Jonsson's sent an anonymous e-mail to the games organizers asking about transgender athletes in the competition. CrossFit determined that competitors in the event had to compete in the gender of their birth."0 -
Just food for thought on this...
The International Olympic Committee has already considered the issue of transgendered athletes competing at the Olympics. They came to the opposite decision of CrossFit. If Chloie was an Olympic athlete, she would be competing with other women. Because she is a woman.0 -
Just food for thought on this...
The International Olympic Committee has already considered the issue of transgendered athletes competing at the Olympics. They came to the opposite decision of CrossFit. If Chloie was an Olympic athlete, she would be competing with other women. Because she is a woman.
It's not that cut and dry. Anyone that is transgender has to wait 2 years. BUT since she did the transformation in 2006, she's obviously has had enough time.0 -
http://games.crossfit.com/athlete/161983
She is 5'4" and 151 lbs so it is not like she has a great physical advantage over other female athletes.
She hasn't got a great height and weight advantage, sure, but there is more to it than that. My boyfriend is barely taller than me, and weighs less than I do, but is he stronger than me? Absolutely! He has a different skeletal and muscular structure which lends itself far more to lifting heavy objects over his head, running and jumping. Whereas my skeletal and muscular structure lends itself well to childbirth, and lying on my sofa eating chocolate ;-P0 -
http://games.crossfit.com/athlete/161983
She is 5'4" and 151 lbs so it is not like she has a great physical advantage over other female athletes.
She hasn't got a great height and weight advantage, sure, but there is more to it than that. My boyfriend is barely taller than me, and weighs less than I do, but is he stronger than me? Absolutely! He has a different skeletal and muscular structure which lends itself far more to lifting heavy objects over his head, running and jumping. Whereas my skeletal and muscular structure lends itself well to childbirth, and lying on my sofa eating chocolate ;-P
And that is primarily a product of his greater testosterone levels. The NCAA has also looked at the issue of transgender athletes and have set guidlines that are similar but LESS stringent than the IOC guidelines:
"The NCAA instituted somewhat less stringent guidelines in 2011. They do not require surgery, and they require only one year on testosterone suppression for male-to-female transgender athletes." - from this article about transgender athletes http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/do-transgender-athletes-have-an-unfair-advantage_b_4918835.html
Also from that article, the conclusionsof the medical experts who consulted on the NCAA policy had this to say:It is also important to know that any strength and endurance advantages a transgender woman arguably may have as a result of her prior testosterone levels dissipate after about one year of estrogen or testosterone-suppression therapy. According to medical experts on this issue, the assumption that a transgender woman competing on a women's team would have a competitive advantage outside the range of performance and competitive advantage or disadvantage that already exists among female athletes is not supported by evidence.
The arguments about advantages because of development during puberty and prior to gender reassignment surgery and testosterone suppression don't seem to hold water.0 -
The arguments about advantages because of development during puberty and prior to gender reassignment surgery and testosterone suppression don't seem to hold water.
Oh, that's an eye-opener! Thanks!0 -
The arguments about advantages because of development during puberty and prior to gender reassignment surgery and testosterone suppression don't seem to hold water.
I think that it is extremely premature to make that judgement. This is an emotionally and even politically charged situation. No one wants to limit the rights of citizens through discrimination. But here is the problem. In this instance, if we snap to a decision without full scientific investigation because it isn't politically correct, the outcome is that it could interfere with fair play in sport. The fact is, there is not a large body of scientific research on whether the transgendered have an advantage or not. The arguments for and against both have merit but when we are looking at just a few cases over several decades, the evidence has very little scientific weight.0 -
The arguments about advantages because of development during puberty and prior to gender reassignment surgery and testosterone suppression don't seem to hold water.
I think that it is extremely premature to make that judgement. This is an emotionally and even politically charged situation. No one wants to limit the rights of citizens through discrimination. But here is the problem. In this instance, if we snap to a decision without full scientific investigation because it isn't politically correct, the outcome is that it could interfere with fair play in sport. The fact is, there is not a large body of scientific research on whether the transgendered have an advantage or not. The arguments for and against both have merit but when we are looking at just a few cases over several decades, the evidence has very little scientific weight.
I would much rather error in favor of inclusiveness than the "fair play" of the sport. Besides, CrossFit is supposed to be all about competing against and imporving YOURSELF, not necessarily about competing against others. So what if she wins and it turns out that in 10 years after voluminous scientific research it was determined that gender reassignment provides an advantage? Is that really going to hurt anything? Nope.0 -
The arguments about advantages because of development during puberty and prior to gender reassignment surgery and testosterone suppression don't seem to hold water.
I think that it is extremely premature to make that judgement. This is an emotionally and even politically charged situation. No one wants to limit the rights of citizens through discrimination. But here is the problem. In this instance, if we snap to a decision without full scientific investigation because it isn't politically correct, the outcome is that it could interfere with fair play in sport. The fact is, there is not a large body of scientific research on whether the transgendered have an advantage or not. The arguments for and against both have merit but when we are looking at just a few cases over several decades, the evidence has very little scientific weight.
I would much rather error in favor of inclusiveness than the "fair play" of the sport. Besides, CrossFit is supposed to be all about competing against and imporving YOURSELF, not necessarily about competing against others. So what if she wins and it turns out that in 10 years after voluminous scientific research it was determined that gender reassignment provides an advantage? Is that really going to hurt anything? Nope.
Actually, if she wins and in 10 years it is determined that she had an advantage, yes, the person that got 2nd place and 3rd place, etc are hurt. They would have missed their lifelong dream of winning and huge financial rewards. The fact is, CrossFit as an exercise program is about improving yourself but the objective of The CrossFit Games is about competing against others and determining who deserves the title of The Fittest Man and Woman on Earth. Fair play is a core value of sport and should never be discounted. Inclusiveness is also a value but since this is a competition, it is a value not outweighed by the need for fair play.0 -
The arguments about advantages because of development during puberty and prior to gender reassignment surgery and testosterone suppression don't seem to hold water.
I think that it is extremely premature to make that judgement. This is an emotionally and even politically charged situation. No one wants to limit the rights of citizens through discrimination. But here is the problem. In this instance, if we snap to a decision without full scientific investigation because it isn't politically correct, the outcome is that it could interfere with fair play in sport. The fact is, there is not a large body of scientific research on whether the transgendered have an advantage or not. The arguments for and against both have merit but when we are looking at just a few cases over several decades, the evidence has very little scientific weight.
I would much rather error in favor of inclusiveness than the "fair play" of the sport. Besides, CrossFit is supposed to be all about competing against and imporving YOURSELF, not necessarily about competing against others. So what if she wins and it turns out that in 10 years after voluminous scientific research it was determined that gender reassignment provides an advantage? Is that really going to hurt anything? Nope.
Actually, if she wins and in 10 years it is determined that she had an advantage, yes, the person that got 2nd place and 3rd place, etc are hurt. They would have missed their lifelong dream of winning and huge financial rewards. The fact is, CrossFit as an exercise program is about improving yourself but the objective of The CrossFit Games is about competing against others and determining who deserves the title of The Fittest Man and Woman on Earth. Fair play is a core value of sport and should never be discounted. Inclusiveness is also a value but since this is a competition, it is a value not outweighed by the need for fair play.
In sports and competition you can still gain something even if you don't win; the idea that you tried your best, a sense of accomplishment from pushing your boundaries, a sense of camaraderie with your teammates and/or opponents, etc. Just winning does not have to be the end all/be all. Like the old saying, "it is not whether you win or lose but how you played the game." When you weigh that against the choice to institutionally shun someone because of their sexuality (something they have no control over) it seems quite petty.0
