For those who Sumo?

cajuntank
cajuntank Posts: 924 Member
Will start off by saying my deadlift sucks. So when you were deciding between pulling conventional or sumo style for deadlifts, were you able to pull more weight immediately with sumo style or did you have to work up to more?
I am training sumo style at the moment as I am feeling more comfortable with the setup than conventional, but I had to take a 15%-20% deload as it seems I was using muscles differently than pulling conventional (or does this mean my conventional pulling was just plain wrong :grumble: )

So for example, last night I pulled 315lbs for 5 reps sumo style without issue, then attempted just to pull a single at 365lbs. Saw stars trying to pull sumo (couldn't even make it move off the floor), but got it alright pulling conventional.

Replies

  • n3ver3nder
    n3ver3nder Posts: 155 Member
    it seems I was using muscles differently than pulling conventional (or does this mean my conventional pulling was just plain wrong :grumble: )

    Erm, that's kind of the point. Sumo has more quad involvement and less lower back involvement compared to conventional. It's best for quad dominant people whose proportions make using sumo sensible (i.e shorter limbs).
    Whilst I'm quad dominant I have long arms and my proportions make conventional work better for me.

    For you, you'll need to weigh up the pros/cons and pick a deadlift style based on that. Or train both and if/when you compete use the stronger of the two.

    There are people who get an immediate PB when switching to sumo, but it's not everyone.
  • tomcornhole
    tomcornhole Posts: 1,084 Member
    When I switched from conventional to sumo, I went from 335 1RM (actual) to 390 1RM (actual). I haven't looked back. My body lends itself to sumo, though. I never thought to try it until Sara suggested it. Very happy.

    There's actually an equation that helps determine if you might be better suited for conventional or sumo.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=108595111&p=181075901#post181075901

    It depends on what you're training for. If you're training for a sport, such as football, you should really be deadlifting conventional. Strongman contests don't allow sumo style, so you're forced to lift conventional.

    If you're training for powerlifting, it's not quite as simple. Ultimately, you have to go with which style is more comfortable, but you can determine which method will allow you to lift the most weight biomechanically. To do so, follow this method.

    1. Secure a tape measure to the wall with the zero end at the floor. Make sure the metric side (centimeters) is what you are using.

    2. Stand with your back against the wall. Measure from the top of your shoulder to the floor. This will give you your total body measurement.

    3. With a straight arm and your hand in a fist, measure from the top of your shoulder to the middle of your fist. This is your total arm length.

    4. Raise your thigh to determine where your thigh rotates into your pelvis. Once located, lower your leg to the floor and measure from the top of the shoulder to this point. This is your trunk length. Also, subtract this measurement from your total body measurement to give you your lower body length.

    Record these measurements and perform the following calculations:

    1. Divide "trunk length" by "arm length".
    2. Divide "trunk length" by "lower body length".

    The resultant numbers will tell you the following:

    1. Arm to trunk length ratio. Example: If your truk is 50 cm and your armi is 65 cm, divide 65 into 50=0.77. This indicates that your trunk is 77% of your arm length or that your arm is 23% longer than your trunk.

    2. Trunk to lower body length ratio.

    These numbers will help you determine which method, conventional or sumo, will allow you to lift the most weight by biomechanical standards.

    CONVENTIONAL
    If your trunk to arm ratio is less than 0.82 and your trunk to lower body length is less than 0.55, you should consider the conventional style. With your arms longer than your trunk, you'll finish the pull with the bar below your hip joint. This finishing position indicates that the initial starting position of your trunk (trunk angle) will be larger (more upright). This would indicate more activity from the quads as well as the hamstrings and glutes. A more upright trunk angle will also create a larger knee angle at the starting position, making the shift of the shoulders, knee, and hip more uniform-that is, they rotate in a biomechanically correct sequence.

    SUMO
    If your ratios are larger than 0.82 and 0.55, the initial starting angle of your trunk would be smaller (more inclined) and will therefore position you in a biomechanically ineffecient position. With your trunk more inclined, the activity of your trunk and hip extension muscles will have to follow a different, more inefficient pattern. This will basically result in increased activity from your hamstrings and glutes and decreased activity from the quads. This will also increase stress on your erectors and particularly the lower back and could cause rounding of your upper back. The solution would be sumo.

    Hope this helps.
  • cajuntank
    cajuntank Posts: 924 Member
    Thanks guys for the responses so far.

    Tom, I saw where you had posted this in another thread and tagged it a while back, just have not done my measurements yet. I was more curious to see if there was supposed to be an immediate PB jump so I could have that "light bulb" moment; but unfortunately, I still am left with spending time finding out which one is better for me. Have no plans on competing as far as I know...just want to be strong and have a physique that shows it.

    N3ver3nder, I think that's a good idea about training both...conventional one week, then sumo the next...like that idea.

    Besides deadlifts and squatting, what is the best carry-over exercise y'all have found to help in deadlift? I am currently running Madcow and came from running StrongLifts, so I was doing rows, but have spent the last couple of weeks replacing rows and trying my hand at Power Cleans which I'm currently running on a 3x5 on Monday and Friday (deadlift on Wednesday), increasing 5lb each workout like a beginner till I get to stalling a lot on it.
  • JeffseekingV
    JeffseekingV Posts: 3,165 Member
    I've done both but haven't measured what I'm supposed to be tailered for. I'm short at 5'7" though.

    I've played around with sumo and the next day my inner thighs are burnt to a crisp. I really should do both to change things up.
  • tomcornhole
    tomcornhole Posts: 1,084 Member
    I like to do both as well. I usually warm up with a few conventionals then do a final warmup set and the work sets sumo. I also added trap bar DL on my squat days but 5x10x50%. I stand on an 8 " step so I have to sit down hard to start the trap bar DL. Looks like the bottom of a squat at the start position. Hoping this will carryover to back squat.
  • Hendrix7
    Hendrix7 Posts: 1,903 Member
    Saw stars trying to pull sumo (couldn't even make it move off the floor), but got it alright pulling conventional.

    Typically the initial break off the floor is harder sumo but the lock out is easier and the other way around for conventional.

    I doubt many people could just make the jump to sumo and hit a 1rm pb straight away, you will need time to build up the hips and quads,

    My advice would be to train both styles and over time you will find the position you are best in.
  • cajuntank
    cajuntank Posts: 924 Member
    Saw stars trying to pull sumo (couldn't even make it move off the floor), but got it alright pulling conventional.

    Typically the initial break off the floor is harder sumo but the lock out is easier and the other way around for conventional.

    I doubt many people could just make the jump to sumo and hit a 1rm pb straight away, you will need time to build up the hips and quads,

    My advice would be to train both styles and over time you will find the position you are best in.

    That's my new plan for sure, maybe train conventional one week, then sumo the next or would you run several weeks at one, then several weeks at the other?
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
    I was hitting PRs pretty quickly when I moved from conventional to sumo. However, I think I am particularly suited to sumos. It was not immediate as you still need to practice form and get the right muscles firing and tendons/ligaments up to speed so to speak, but it was within a few weeks.

    In my case, my form (horrendous back rounding) was holding me back for conventionals, and the change in position lead to me having far less of an issue with back rounding (as well as just having levers suited to sumo). That being said, I think that point is actually an argument to doing both rather than just swapping them out completely. (Although, for full disclosure, I only do sumo now).
  • danimalkeys
    danimalkeys Posts: 982 Member
    I don't know about alternating weeks with them, it might end up being counter productive. Maybe run 6-8 weeks in a row on each?

    When I was powerlifting I used sumo, solely for the reason that with a squat suit on, I couldn't get enough air in my belly at the bottom of a conventional stance. One of the problems of being a 260lb lifter unfortunately... I trained my raw lifts with conventional, until I was prepping for a meet and the suit went on, then I trained sumo. I did find sumo a lot easier to pull heavy than conventional though, regardless of a suit on or not. I always worked conventional stance assistance in during a meet prep cycle too, I always felt like conventional just worked me harder. Sumo reduces the range of motion because your feet are so wide, you don't have to pull the bar as far to lock it out. Sort of like using a big arch on bench to reduce rom at a meet, but training more flat backed to build strength.
  • cajuntank
    cajuntank Posts: 924 Member
    Great points and info everyone. So will give the suggestions a shot and run Sumo for 8 weeks total, then switch back to conventional for 8 weeks, etc... I know I need to video myself on the deadlift to see where things break down. I've been purposefully making sure I am squatting low enough (not ATG, but definitely break parallel) and on my light day of squats and was thinking of doing those with a box.
  • ItsCasey
    ItsCasey Posts: 4,021 Member
    I switched to sumo last summer after pulling conventional for several months. I have very short arms and didn't realize that my conventional form was just not good enough until I got to heavy enough weight that I was starting to hurt my back. I decided to start trying a sumo stance since I could get closer to the bar and remain more upright. I had to drop down 50 to 60 lbs at first, and I struggled with it for a while. I hired a lifting coach who also pulled sumo, and I started filming all my sessions. I watched them over and over again, in slow motion, picking out where in the movement pattern I was deficient. I did (and still do) tons of assistance work. And it finally came together.

    I don't think it's necessary to get all complicated with the measurements and calculations. I agree with Hendrix that you just need to practice both for a while and see which one feels better. Film yourself and watch it back and see which one actually looks more like a proper deadlift for you. Then, every now and then, spend some time training the other way. It will only make you better at your preferred method, not to mention giving your over-used muscle groups and joints a break.
  • gweneddk
    gweneddk Posts: 183 Member
    I'm built for sumo (short torso and arms) and conventional DLs just are not good for me. That being said, I do a lot of hip/glute stuff for DL: heavy KB swings, glute bridges, hip thrusts. A lot of my recent gains have come from nitpicking my setup; there's almost always room for improvement there.
  • SezxyStef
    SezxyStef Posts: 15,267 Member
    I use sumo now as well after a muscle injury in my groin area...

    I have since found it is a more comfortable stance along with the style of DL that helps strengthen the particular muscle I hurt...

    Loving it.
  • starbucksbuzz
    starbucksbuzz Posts: 466 Member
    I started sumo-ing when I hit a pretty low traditional DL plateau. Knew I could haul more, just had issues with the form. I probably jumped 20lbs within a week or so of starting sumo, but my PR for deadlifts was really low to begin with. I'm 5' 2" so everything on me is short, haha, it really helped. Mixed grip also helped too. However something is up with my deadlifts because apparently they stress my left pectoral muscle...?? so weird. it's always tight and sore after I deadlift. I think my form might be off.
  • tomcornhole
    tomcornhole Posts: 1,084 Member
    However something is up with my deadlifts because apparently they stress my left pectoral muscle...?? so weird. it's always tight and sore after I deadlift. I think my form might be off.

    Same thing happens to me. When I go for 1RM work, my pecs feel lil I've pulled something. Very weird.
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
    I started sumo-ing when I hit a pretty low traditional DL plateau. Knew I could haul more, just had issues with the form. I probably jumped 20lbs within a week or so of starting sumo, but my PR for deadlifts was really low to begin with. I'm 5' 2" so everything on me is short, haha, it really helped. Mixed grip also helped too. However something is up with my deadlifts because apparently they stress my left pectoral muscle...?? so weird. it's always tight and sore after I deadlift. I think my form might be off.

    Do you use mixed grip on all your lifts - warm up included? Do you switch the grips?