Recovery and what to do.
gwhizeh
Posts: 269 Member
So, I have been doing SL for a while. Last April actually for the most part. Ups and downs in there for sure. I switched to Allpros beginner for about 6 weeks but have returned to the 5x5 routine. I like the format and it fits my schedule. My strength has improved in all areas, but I definitely need to work on some things. Bench and OHP for sure. I have put more focus on being in a better calorie deficit as my goal is fat loss, and I am doing my best to add cardio back to the mix for additional burn. Sometimes HIIT and sometimes not.
What I am finding is I can do my first workout of the week ( Sundays for me) , and have no issue. Lift heavy and can usually get my 5x5 in on whichever program A or B it falls on. Last Sunday's lifts were excellent even. Come the next lifts on Tuesday, and its all I got to get 3-4 reps at best (even at the same weight). Sometimes not even. So, to me this is a pretty good indication my body is fairly taxed. I'm old balls, or I've turned into a puss recently. Either way, its not working at the moment as is.
I want to keep lifts in my workouts, but I dont want to be frustrated every time. And it doesn't seem effective in my head. So wanting to keep the current plan of deficit, cardio and lifts, in tact for the time being, but knowing 3 times a week of heavy lifts doesn't seem feasible at the moment, what suggestions you guys have? Should I look for a different routine? Drop to 3x5 maybe (this is kinda what SL's suggests I think)? Suspend lifts until a later date? (not really what I want, but I have enough fat to go on without losing much muscle I'm sure) or suck it up, drop weight (keep deloading) until I can find a balance of heavy enough weight and recovery? Or just plain suck it up?
Anyway, sorry for the ramble of where I am at. Im curious to what you think and would maybe do.
Thanks
What I am finding is I can do my first workout of the week ( Sundays for me) , and have no issue. Lift heavy and can usually get my 5x5 in on whichever program A or B it falls on. Last Sunday's lifts were excellent even. Come the next lifts on Tuesday, and its all I got to get 3-4 reps at best (even at the same weight). Sometimes not even. So, to me this is a pretty good indication my body is fairly taxed. I'm old balls, or I've turned into a puss recently. Either way, its not working at the moment as is.
I want to keep lifts in my workouts, but I dont want to be frustrated every time. And it doesn't seem effective in my head. So wanting to keep the current plan of deficit, cardio and lifts, in tact for the time being, but knowing 3 times a week of heavy lifts doesn't seem feasible at the moment, what suggestions you guys have? Should I look for a different routine? Drop to 3x5 maybe (this is kinda what SL's suggests I think)? Suspend lifts until a later date? (not really what I want, but I have enough fat to go on without losing much muscle I'm sure) or suck it up, drop weight (keep deloading) until I can find a balance of heavy enough weight and recovery? Or just plain suck it up?
Anyway, sorry for the ramble of where I am at. Im curious to what you think and would maybe do.
Thanks
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Replies
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I'm curious as to what others say on this. I started 5x5 in the fall, then restarted it (with significant reloads in January). I'm also eating at a deficit and I wonder how much longer I can continue the program. I'm stuck at bench (185) and OHP (115 before form goes out the window). But it's really the squats that are killing me. I haven't failed yet, but doing 205 on Wednesday after crossing to 200 on Monday was rough. I know I'm going to feel it tomorrow (actually later today).
I think I could make more progress if I weren't eating at a deficit, but that's not in the cards for at least a few more months. I have a feeling I will be at the "beating my head up against the wall" stage soon.0 -
...I have put more focus on being in a better calorie deficit as my goal is fat loss, and I am doing my best to add cardio back to the mix for additional burn. Sometimes HIIT and sometimes not.
I think Mehdi says somewhere in the stronglifts documentation that this program is for building strenght. Therefore he claims that you should eat at a surplus to recover because the program is so intensive and your muscles need the food to recover.
Going into a 'better' (not sure what you mean by this, I'm assuming bigger) deficit, will mean you need more time to recover. Also all the additional cardio and HIIT doesn't help your lifting eather... If Sunday is your first workout day and thus had 2 rest days before this can explain why you can do decent lifting on Sunday and not on any other day.
You should clarify your goal for yourself. Cut or bulk.0 -
I did 5x5 for 16 weeks and squats got to be too much too. I tried resting 2 days between workouts but felt my other lifts were suffering so switched squats to 3x5, then 1x5 and finally completely switched over to MADCOW.0
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And for what it's worth, I'm 40, started SL5X5 last August eating a surplus, got a little too "soft" and have been eating a slight deficit since January. Lifts have still been going up.0
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Been there man. Here's what it was for me. Cardio is great if your goal is added cardiovascular health and the need to eat more calories (and on the rare occasion, you enjoy it so it makes you adhere better to exercise) , but that's it. If it impedes your strength training, I would either eat more or dial the cardio back. So as also stated, be careful of how much you are in caloric deficit and losing on average per week. You only need to be losing .5-1% of your bodyweight a week at max...anything more and your more than likely losing more muscle than you'd like. Also, you might want to address your diet to time your carb intake strategically around your workout. For some, eating a higher carb meal 1-2 hours before workout offers better gym performance...you'll basically need to just play with that to see what works better for you... fed or empty stomach.0
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When recovery became an issue for me, I switched to an intermediate lifting program.
I started out with SL5x5 in 2012 and eventually got to the point where the squats were abusing me. I fiddled around with some self designed stuff and then finally went to Mark Rippetoe's Texas Method. And I do light cardio on non lifting days.
Good article on the subject here:
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/the_texas_method0 -
Thanks for all the replies. Yes, I definitely feel its squats killing me. 245lbs is my last full 5x5. On Sunday. Felt great even. As for deficit, yes, Imean an increase in deficit. Nothing crazy, but being at a stand still in fat loss, i felt it was warranted. I realize Id have to eat, to continue gains in strength, but its not my primary goal at the moment. I don't mind the cardio, i exercise in the evening, and it helps to keep me from munching, and I like the comfort of some extra calories burnt.
I will check the Texas method out also. Id like to find something , even for the time being . The last thing i want is burnt out and frustrated entirely. Thanks again.0 -
This was interesting. Thanks for the link.
Good article on the subject here:
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/the_texas_method0 -
Don't know if I'd go with the Texas Method right now as that one you really need to be eating a ton to help with recovery. I would address your other activities and nutrition first and keep with the current program as outlined. Deload when you fail as outlined and move to 3x5, rinse and repeat to 1x5. Try to keep that linear progression going for as long as you can. Texas Method and Madcow, which is also a popular intermediate program, only move weight up weekly instead of every workout. You are still squatting 3 times a week regardless of whatever program you do, it's just the intermediate programs introduce a "light" day to help with recovery. If you are dead set on running an intermediate, then maybe just run the intermediate for squats alone and continue StrongLifts for the others as programmed. Just my two cents.0
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I do agree on the intermediate and not moving into it yet. I don't feel my numbers are there nor my diet is right for it either. I know I was doing ok before adjusting cals and cutting cardio out for the most part. My intent is continue diet wise for 3 more weeks to hopefully see an improvement and slowly up things from there if I need or can. I will deload as necessary and likely be at 3x5 or some lighter days at squats. Maybe a good opportunity to work on form in that time.
Thanks for the insight and suggestions guys. Much appreciated. Keep up the hard work!0 -
Don't know if I'd go with the Texas Method right now as that one you really need to be eating a ton to help with recovery. I would address your other activities and nutrition first and keep with the current program as outlined. Deload when you fail as outlined and move to 3x5, rinse and repeat to 1x5. Try to keep that linear progression going for as long as you can. Texas Method and Madcow, which is also a popular intermediate program, only move weight up weekly instead of every workout. You are still squatting 3 times a week regardless of whatever program you do, it's just the intermediate programs introduce a "light" day to help with recovery. If you are dead set on running an intermediate, then maybe just run the intermediate for squats alone and continue StrongLifts for the others as programmed. Just my two cents.
Thanks. That really helps me.0 -
I'll chuck my tuppence in on this one
I have also being rolling with SL and a decent deficit and am sure that the lack of food has stalled my gains etc.
Part of the issue is that you are expected to progress and in an ideal world, am sure you would...we all would
However - I am also looking to shift some weight and using the SL as a method to prevent muscle loss during this cutting phase. With this I am happy to accept that unless and until I start eating to progress then I am probably just playing at it and won;t be squatting 140kg etc any time soon. I am stronger than I was and I know this is helping me at this stage.
I have also been training and competing in offroad/trail Duathlons (last on on Sunday was 13km run and 24km ride) and doing this I know I am not exactly following the "Mehdi way" as that is a metric ****ton of cardio and trying to run and ride after a day of squattng is a killer.0 -
Protein really helps me recover. I try to get some in before I lift and always get some in after I lift 30-50 grams. the squats 275 and deadlifts 325 are killing me but I'm still progressing. What I do and yes I realize this is no longer the stronglifts program is do my normal SL warmup as prescribed then I do 2 working sets of 5 reps and turn it into a reverse pyramid training workout from they. For example squat warmup 5x bar 4x135 3x 225 2x 250 5x275, 5x275, 8-10x225, 8-10 200, 8-10x185. This helps me feel strong for the heaviest lifts and keeps me happy (want to lift heavier) my trainer happy (he wants more volume) and falls in line with my goals of maintaining muscle while eating at a 500-600 cal deficit. I'm still a fat *kitten* so I need the deficit. 5 working sets at max weight made me dread going to the gym, but knowing that I only have to bang out two sets makes it seem doable. The best part is I have seen better progress on the bench and OHP whereas before I would stall quite often. plus I have added chinups and dips to the workout as well.
I am not telling you this is stronglifts or this is what you should do. This is what I did to meet my goals while following the core concept of a great workout.0 -
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This is what I did to meet my goals while following the core concept of a great workout.
Nice adjustments. Good workout.0 -
Protein really helps me recover. I try to get some in before I lift and always get some in after I lift 30-50 grams. the squats 275 and deadlifts 325 are killing me but I'm still progressing. What I do and yes I realize this is no longer the stronglifts program is do my normal SL warmup as prescribed then I do 2 working sets of 5 reps and turn it into a reverse pyramid training workout from they. For example squat warmup 5x bar 4x135 3x 225 2x 250 5x275, 5x275, 8-10x225, 8-10 200, 8-10x185. This helps me feel strong for the heaviest lifts and keeps me happy (want to lift heavier) my trainer happy (he wants more volume) and falls in line with my goals of maintaining muscle while eating at a 500-600 cal deficit. I'm still a fat *kitten* so I need the deficit. 5 working sets at max weight made me dread going to the gym, but knowing that I only have to bang out two sets makes it seem doable. The best part is I have seen better progress on the bench and OHP whereas before I would stall quite often. plus I have added chinups and dips to the workout as well.
I am not telling you this is stronglifts or this is what you should do. This is what I did to meet my goals while following the core concept of a great workout.
I'm keeping this is mind for when I start stalling. 0 -
Protein really helps me recover. I try to get some in before I lift and always get some in after I lift 30-50 grams. the squats 275 and deadlifts 325 are killing me but I'm still progressing. What I do and yes I realize this is no longer the stronglifts program is do my normal SL warmup as prescribed then I do 2 working sets of 5 reps and turn it into a reverse pyramid training workout from they. For example squat warmup 5x bar 4x135 3x 225 2x 250 5x275, 5x275, 8-10x225, 8-10 200, 8-10x185. This helps me feel strong for the heaviest lifts and keeps me happy (want to lift heavier) my trainer happy (he wants more volume) and falls in line with my goals of maintaining muscle while eating at a 500-600 cal deficit. I'm still a fat *kitten* so I need the deficit. 5 working sets at max weight made me dread going to the gym, but knowing that I only have to bang out two sets makes it seem doable. The best part is I have seen better progress on the bench and OHP whereas before I would stall quite often. plus I have added chinups and dips to the workout as well.
I am not telling you this is stronglifts or this is what you should do. This is what I did to meet my goals while following the core concept of a great workout.
I'm keeping this is mind for when I start stalling.
Just be mindful that volume and caloric deficits do not go well together. If anything, one should dial the volume back when in a deficit and recovery is an issue. The whole idea is to create a stimulus for the muscle to adapt and as a byproduct, get stronger and cause the body to not use it as fuel. So for example and being extremely simplistic, the muscle for a particular lift gets adapted to moving a weight of 200lbs; anything less than 200lbs causes no further adaptation, so while doing less weight for more sets accumulates volume, the adaptation of strength has already occurred. There is no real benefit continuing trying to make the muscle grow with more added volume as there are no additional calories to use to build from. That's why classic hypertrophy (body building) programs call for more volume and lighter weight, while strength programs call for less volume and heavier weight. Again, this is being very simplistic and making black and white statements, but the basis of it is what I'm trying to get across.0 -
I've also had difficulty keeping up with stronglifts while on a deficit. Here is my new plan; feel free to comment.
The old plan: I've been eating at a deficit and losing 1.5-2.5lbs per week. I started stronglifts in the fall, took a break at X-Mas, then re-started after de-loads in January. I'm at the point where I am have failed a few times at OHP and bench, but it's been a steady march up up in squat, row, and deadlift. I've also been doing 30 minutes of heavy cardio on the elliptical machine 6 days/week.
The new plan: I will still eat at a deficit, hoping to maintain the weight loss I have seen. I'm going to modify my strength program only for Wednesday squats, where I will lift roughly 80% of my Monday weight 5x5. The rest of my strength program will stay the same. I will reduce my cardio on lifting days to 15 minutes (down from 30).
The eventual plan: Sometime in the next 6-10 weeks, I expect to reach a weight with which I am comfortable. At that point, I'm going to gradually add calories until I reach maintenance (hopefully). I'm going to continue on stronglifts, hopefully able to see new gains now that I am fueling my activity properly.
Any feedback is appreciated.0 -
Protein really helps me recover. I try to get some in before I lift and always get some in after I lift 30-50 grams. the squats 275 and deadlifts 325 are killing me but I'm still progressing. What I do and yes I realize this is no longer the stronglifts program is do my normal SL warmup as prescribed then I do 2 working sets of 5 reps and turn it into a reverse pyramid training workout from they. For example squat warmup 5x bar 4x135 3x 225 2x 250 5x275, 5x275, 8-10x225, 8-10 200, 8-10x185. This helps me feel strong for the heaviest lifts and keeps me happy (want to lift heavier) my trainer happy (he wants more volume) and falls in line with my goals of maintaining muscle while eating at a 500-600 cal deficit. I'm still a fat *kitten* so I need the deficit. 5 working sets at max weight made me dread going to the gym, but knowing that I only have to bang out two sets makes it seem doable. The best part is I have seen better progress on the bench and OHP whereas before I would stall quite often. plus I have added chinups and dips to the workout as well.
I am not telling you this is stronglifts or this is what you should do. This is what I did to meet my goals while following the core concept of a great workout.
I'm keeping this is mind for when I start stalling.
Just be mindful that volume and caloric deficits do not go well together. If anything, one should dial the volume back when in a deficit and recovery is an issue. The whole idea is to create a stimulus for the muscle to adapt and as a byproduct, get stronger and cause the body to not use it as fuel. So for example and being extremely simplistic, the muscle for a particular lift gets adapted to moving a weight of 200lbs; anything less than 200lbs causes no further adaptation, so while doing less weight for more sets accumulates volume, the adaptation of strength has already occurred. There is no real benefit continuing trying to make the muscle grow with more added volume as there are no additional calories to use to build from. That's why classic hypertrophy (body building) programs call for more volume and lighter weight, while strength programs call for less volume and heavier weight. Again, this is being very simplistic and making black and white statements, but the basis of it is what I'm trying to get across.
I completely hear you, when my trainer said he wants me to do hypertrophy my reply was similar to what you said. You cannot increase muscle mass while on a deficit therefore I did not see the benefits of dedicating an entire routine to it. I do like the routine I am doing though because I am still getting strength gains and still maintaining muscle mass while at a deficit. Plus one thing that scares me is trying to stand up with 315 on my back in a squat rack one day on my 5th rep 5th set of stronglifts with horrible form from fatigue.
It's still a hell of good workout comparing how I feel to how I felt on others.0 -
I would ditch the cardio and keeps the squats0
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I've also had difficulty keeping up with stronglifts while on a deficit. Here is my new plan; feel free to comment.
The old plan: I've been eating at a deficit and losing 1.5-2.5lbs per week. I started stronglifts in the fall, took a break at X-Mas, then re-started after de-loads in January. I'm at the point where I am have failed a few times at OHP and bench, but it's been a steady march up up in squat, row, and deadlift. I've also been doing 30 minutes of heavy cardio on the elliptical machine 6 days/week.
The new plan: I will still eat at a deficit, hoping to maintain the weight loss I have seen. I'm going to modify my strength program only for Wednesday squats, where I will lift roughly 80% of my Monday weight 5x5. The rest of my strength program will stay the same. I will reduce my cardio on lifting days to 15 minutes (down from 30).
The eventual plan: Sometime in the next 6-10 weeks, I expect to reach a weight with which I am comfortable. At that point, I'm going to gradually add calories until I reach maintenance (hopefully). I'm going to continue on stronglifts, hopefully able to see new gains now that I am fueling my activity properly.
Any feedback is appreciated.
If you enjoy cardio, then by all means, do cardio. I might just do it after your workout only and cut it out completely on your recovery days if it's affecting your squatting for the next session. Always treat lifting with more priority than cardio (unless there is some cardiovascular issue that must be addressed or maybe your goal to running). What's nice about the program is it's protocol already has in place a means to reduce volume when needed (albeit, if running a deficit, most people will encounter the need to employ this earlier due to recovery issues before your genetic muscle potential would have...if that makes sense).
I think Mehdi actually comments somewhere on his site about most men will need to shift over to an Intermediate program for squats when they are squatting in the 300's for reps. I think this is just from what he has seen from the general populous over the years and nothing necessarily based on scientific application or anything. So keep that in mind as well just as information.0 -
If you enjoy cardio, then by all means, do cardio. I might just do it after your workout only and cut it out completely on your recovery days if it's affecting your squatting for the next session. Always treat lifting with more priority than cardio (unless there is some cardiovascular issue that must be addressed or maybe your goal to running). What's nice about the program is it's protocol already has in place a means to reduce volume when needed (albeit, if running a deficit, most people will encounter the need to employ this earlier due to recovery issues before your genetic muscle potential would have...if that makes sense).
I think Mehdi actually comments somewhere on his site about most men will need to shift over to an Intermediate program for squats when they are squatting in the 300's for reps. I think this is just from what he has seen from the general populous over the years and nothing necessarily based on scientific application or anything. So keep that in mind as well just as information.
I wouldn't say I "enjoy" cardio; it's just been a pretty big part of my success in losing weight. Maybe I would do just as well without it, but it's hard to switch this close to the goal line.
It's funny because today is Wednesday - pre-workout - and I feel great. I'm wondering if I am reacting too much to one tough week. I may try to keep the squats going and see what happens. I will decide once I get to the gym.
Thanks for the feedback.0
