Just making sure I'm doing it right :)

you guys, this group is amazing! I spent all night reading through the posts and I've been given new hope :D I posted my story here: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1237035-plateauing-for-2-months-now

but I'll give you a quick summary of my past months: I fasted for three months, lost 15lbs without exercising much and ever since I started eating regularly again, working out 6 times a day, heavy lifting included, I haven't lost a pound. I haven't lost since mid-December and I've honestly been giving up hope lately. I eat very clean, hardly ever cheat (don't even need the sugar anymore, haha) and tried everything: I ate 1200 kcal a day, upped it to 1300, upped to 1400, drink 8+ glasses water a day, get 7+ hours of sleep a day, etc.

now, the scale hasn't shown ANY progress, and in the past three months I've barely seen progress from measuring (1/2 inch around my arms, 1 inch around thighs, 1 inch around knees)

for the past three weeks I've been doing HIIT classes at my gym 5 times a week and LOVE it! I'm sad they only last 35-45 minutes :'D I burn between 350 and 390 kcal each day from HIIT, according to my Polar watch.

here are my stats: I'm 23 years old, 5'2", and weigh 121 lbs

I KNOW that my BMI is in the "healthy weight range", but since BMI doesn't say ANYTHING about bodyfat percentage, here's a photo of me not being happy with how my body looks: http://i58.tinypic.com/dcbf9d.jpg

all my weight sits around my thighs and bum, but I wanna lose a couple of pounds overall so I feel comfortable in shorts again. and for the effort of eating a superclean diet and exercising I think I deserve that much, haha :'D

so, here's what I figure I'm gonna do, but am unsure of my activity level. since I "only" burn 350-390 kcal from working out a day, do I really need to choose 3-5 hours a week of moderate exercise in the calculator? everytime I seeked help online I was told I undereat, but I read through a couple of posts in here pointing out that you shouldn't overeat, so I'm a little unsure.

here are my stats the calculator gave me:
BMR = 1362
TDEE = 2112 (which seems like A LOT, taken that I sit on my desk all day long)
15% cut= 1689

should I really up my intake to 1689 then? let's say I burn ~1800 kcal a week by working out and divide that by 7. that brings me to 257 kcal and if I add them to my BMR, I come to around 1619 kcal. and having eaten never more that 1500 recently (which was hard to get up to), I honestly don't know if I should really go for it. but since I read so many great entries here, I guess I'll give it a go. I was just wondering if somebody could check my stats and let me know if I should choose a lover exercise level when calculating my supposed intake.

thank you so, SO much for reading all of this :) I was and still am so happy I found this group! I've struggled so much over the past months and have honestly no idea what else to do than to give this a go. I'm in no rush to lose the last 10 pouds or so, but I'd just be so extremely motivating to finally see the scale move even just .5 down after all the work I've put in these past three months.

Replies

  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    Just a few comments as I read through your info.

    HRM for HIIT is going to be inflated. The formula for getting calorie burn from HR is based on steady-state same HR for 2-4 min aerobic exercise.
    HIIT if done correctly is opposite of steady-state and at least half anaerobic.
    So inflated calorie burns, and that's if your HRM could even be trusted for you.

    Still good workout, for those that don't want to lift and only do cardio, it's as close to getting the body to respond like it was lifting, kinda.

    Just curious, what is the gym calling HIIT now a days, what is the actual workout and timings of hard and easy efforts?

    Since your prior diet method had you ending up skinny fat, taking a deficit at a healthy weight is the WRONG thing to do.

    But also starting with the wrong estimates won't help either.
    Use the spreadsheet on my profile page to get decent estimate of bodyfat %, and better Activity calculator for that workout, if you still do it. Stay on Simple Setup tab, and Progress tab. Your workout is High cardio. And 35-45 min is 40 min x 5 if you keep doing it.

    Your BMR is likely lower since higher than average BF%. Meaning TDEE is lower too for some stuff. Spreadsheet handles that automatically.

    You should take NO deficit, or indeed enter that 2 lb goal loss, which will be very minor deficit.

    You will get the best improvements from your workout eating at maintenance (actually in surplus, but that's for later).
    As those improvements go on, you'll be burning off the fat, while weight stays about the same. Some improvements cause weight gain.
    For instance HIIT is total carb burn, hence the body responds by storing more carbs, which stores with water, which increases weight. And muscle size since that's where it's stored.
    But fat will still be burned at max to support those improvements and the hard effort you can put in to the workout.

    But I'd suggest you look in to doing some strength training. But that's why I asked what the program actually is. I've been finding many gym classes are jumping on the HIIT fad, and just name their circuit training class as HIIT. But circuit training is strength training, so that's good.

    If you really don't want to go back to lifting, that's fine. But that's the workout that will call on the body to make the most changes and burn the most fat. Cardio, even HIIT if it really is, will be slower, well, again depending on what it is.
  • marie0108
    marie0108 Posts: 19
    Just a few comments as I read through your info.

    HRM for HIIT is going to be inflated. The formula for getting calorie burn from HR is based on steady-state same HR for 2-4 min aerobic exercise.
    HIIT if done correctly is opposite of steady-state and at least half anaerobic.
    So inflated calorie burns, and that's if your HRM could even be trusted for you.

    Still good workout, for those that don't want to lift and only do cardio, it's as close to getting the body to respond like it was lifting, kinda.

    Just curious, what is the gym calling HIIT now a days, what is the actual workout and timings of hard and easy efforts?

    Since your prior diet method had you ending up skinny fat, taking a deficit at a healthy weight is the WRONG thing to do.

    But also starting with the wrong estimates won't help either.
    Use the spreadsheet on my profile page to get decent estimate of bodyfat %, and better Activity calculator for that workout, if you still do it. Stay on Simple Setup tab, and Progress tab. Your workout is High cardio. And 35-45 min is 40 min x 5 if you keep doing it.

    Your BMR is likely lower since higher than average BF%. Meaning TDEE is lower too for some stuff. Spreadsheet handles that automatically.

    You should take NO deficit, or indeed enter that 2 lb goal loss, which will be very minor deficit.

    You will get the best improvements from your workout eating at maintenance (actually in surplus, but that's for later).
    As those improvements go on, you'll be burning off the fat, while weight stays about the same. Some improvements cause weight gain.
    For instance HIIT is total carb burn, hence the body responds by storing more carbs, which stores with water, which increases weight. And muscle size since that's where it's stored.
    But fat will still be burned at max to support those improvements and the hard effort you can put in to the workout.

    But I'd suggest you look in to doing some strength training. But that's why I asked what the program actually is. I've been finding many gym classes are jumping on the HIIT fad, and just name their circuit training class as HIIT. But circuit training is strength training, so that's good.

    If you really don't want to go back to lifting, that's fine. But that's the workout that will call on the body to make the most changes and burn the most fat. Cardio, even HIIT if it really is, will be slower, well, again depending on what it is.

    wow, thank you so much! got some extremely helpful tips out of what you said.

    well, first of all, the HIIT classes aren't really HIIT, they call them cardio-strength classes and it changes every single day, we usually start with a warm up of running for 1.5 to 2 minutes, 10 second break, jumping jacks for 1.5 to 2 minutes, 10 second break, etc. we do work with dumbbells A LOT, too, and we also often do boxing, sit ups, lunges, burpees, etc. it's supposed to work the whole body. every other day we don't take any breaks and do all of the exercises for a minute each, doing 6 in total and 4 reps of the sets. today we did strength for the back and upper body after the general warm-up (running in place, jumping to your left with weights in your hands, jumping to your right, jumping jacks, burpees, stair climbing) and finished with a couple of ab exercises. I'm asking tomorrow if there are any strength classes that do some lifting. the gym is tiny and actually doesn't have anything but some weights and like 5 cardio machines. and power plate, but that's it.

    so, I put all my details into your spreadsheet (which is amazing, btw!!) and my bodyfat % is 26,40%, as expected. since I couldn't do the skinfold test because I don't have a caliper, I did the military one and upped it to 27%, just to be sure. all the other calculators I tried told me I have ~30%. which is alarming, really! as my final goal weight I put in 108 lbs, I wasn't sure I was meant to put in anything though.

    here's what I got out of it (with the 108 lbs goal weight):
    BMR = 1237
    TDEE = 1783
    TDGE = 1574 (that's so much, haha!)
    average daily deficit = 209 kcal

    and your suggestions say: Set Carbohydrates to 60% (236g), Protein to 20% (79g), Fat to 20% (35g)

    I assume that is what I should do, disregarding the "eating for your future you" section, is that right? and should I really only have that little protein?

    as for strength, do you think working with my bodyweight will benefit, too? I honestly don't know if the "strength" classes they offer are any good. but I'll definitely look into it asap and ask my trainer tomorrow.

    thank you so much for your help again! I finally feel like someone has an actual idea of what they are saying. whenever I asked for help in the forums here, I was told I overeat. taken that I was already down at a 1200 kcal daily intake, I was so confused the whole time. so thank you for being awesome and putting together that spreadsheet! :D I hope I'm getting it right this time!
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    Those are indeed some good strength training classes then even if with bodyweight, if you can keep moving up to heavier weights that will make it even better.
    Others on here have mentioned how they'll modify a mainly cardio class with strength side benefits to strength focus by doing the reps slower with more weight during the same time. Instead of getting say 20 or more reps, they get 10-15. Mention desire to instructor first, may not need another class, maybe they'll ask the class about change of focus, or at least realize you are tweaking things harder, rather than easier like others probably do.
    But those would be classed as High cardio in the activity calculator for time and calorie burn.

    Were the BF calcs for Covert and Military close? Just confirm you erased all the values not for you in yellow cells in that general area. If they are not close, I'd use the average of both shown. Because while one may be more correct but you wouldn't know, they'll tighten up in accuracy usually as inches drop.

    Indeed put in your own healthy goal weight in the yellow field, the suggestions are there for many that have never seen a healthy goal weight, so no clue what it should be.

    So your activity factor is 1.44, right between levels in traditional TDEE chart with that workout.

    So that amount of protein hits the recommendation from studies for lifters on a cut to maintain muscle mass, 2 g per kg of LBM, or almost 1 g per lb of LBM.

    For purposes of compliance, if more protein helps, you can always eat more with less carbs. But what's shown isn't even minimum, it's really max to have shown a benefit. Some complain of trying to hit their protein goals or the expense when it's higher than needed, so I'm just being realistic there.

    Your hope of course with minor deficit is to gain some LBM while dropping fat a tad faster, so I'd suggest on valid weigh-in day get new measurements, as LBM may be increasing.
    In fact for the BF calc, it could appear you are gaining fat while dropping inches, which obviously isn't true, just the calc getting more accurate.

    Since it sounds like you've been eating so much less, you might find the average of what you've normally been eating in gross not net, and for a week add 100 calories daily.
    Then the next week, another 100 daily.
    Work your way up to the suggested TDEE. If your body is getting unstressed and adapting back up, you may see some weight lost before you get up to TDEE - keep going and sit there for diet break for 2 weeks at least, longer if you had no weight loss at lower levels. Because that means body wasn't unstressed enough.

    You should gain fast water weight, and if on a valid weigh-in day (mentioned in spreadsheet), it'll increase your LBM and those figures, maybe not enough to worry about, but after working your way up and at least 2 weeks at TDEE, it should be a tad more.
  • marie0108
    marie0108 Posts: 19
    I'm constantly going for heavier weights as soon as I feel ready, but will also talk to my trainer first thing tomorrow morning about lifting classes. I know there's something offered because I always see a bunch of guys leave when I get there, haha, so I'll definitely look into it!

    also, I guess I'll up my intake to my TDEE of 1783 for the next two weeks then! which really seems like so, so much! I'll figure out the average of all the bodyfat% tests I did online and use that and recalculate in case I was off the first time, just to be sure.

    and wow, I was having way too much protein then! I was always above 100 g because that's what IIFYM.com suggested. it'll be such a change go back to having that many carbs.

    when should I take my first measurements? I couldn't find any info on it in the spreadsheet. also, how often should I weigh myself? I honestly avoid it as much as I can and only ever do it on the first of a month. but should I be supervising what's going on in my body? I'm a little scared of too drastic gain. since it's suggested to up my carb intake rather drastically, too. I was eating low-carb for the most part of the last two months, so that change is going to show somehow, too, right? I'm scared to gain back the 15 lbs I lost already.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    The info on valid weigh-in day is just to the right of the weight and height lines. May have to scroll sideways.

    So keep in mind regarding your experience with calorie levels - you basically have none.
    Unless you logged what you used to eat that got you into trouble, or what you could maintain at with higher weight and less workouts, you have no idea except the minimum for safety given to sedentary women - 1200.

    Like, did you realize your body, if you slept all day, would like to burn around 1200 calories just for basic functions of life?
    That's your biggest calorie burn.

    If you want to jump straight up to TDEE that's fine, just be aware you WILL be eating in surplus until such time your body speeds up - that will mean fat gain. But even there, that's probably 500 cal over, so it would take 1 week of no speed up to cause 1 lb fat gain - not a lot.

    Might reread what I wrote about coming up slowly.

    Way too much protein is when it causes liver issues. More can help you feel fuller, it's just excess for what protein is normally needed for, unused like everything else after some hours. At least in a diet that unused is converted to glucose, and used in that normal manner.
    If you had no problem eating that much protein, go for it, not going to hurt, just no extra benefit if it was stressful to hit that goal.
    The only thing eating more carbs would cause is an increase in metabolism, since managing that intracellular water attached to glycogen takes extra energy. And your body may appreciate that faster energy source for your workouts as they get more intense.

    Take measurements first valid weigh-in day. Weigh weekly so you can confirm fast water weight and not be freaked out.
    Measurements bi-weekly is usually enough, just to see progress.
  • marie0108
    marie0108 Posts: 19
    okay, thanks :) I'll weigh myself next Saturday or Sunday then since I work out Mon-Fri. I'm also slowly creeping up towards my TDEE, I haven't eaten that much in so many months! and I feel happy and satisfied, haha. how long do you suggest I stay on my TDEE intake? what I got out of it is that 2 weeks are recommended, but I've seen people doing it for way longer which I honestly would like to avoid.

    thank you so much! I feel like I learned more in the past three days than I did in the past 6 months!
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    okay, thanks :) I'll weigh myself next Saturday or Sunday then since I work out Mon-Fri. I'm also slowly creeping up towards my TDEE, I haven't eaten that much in so many months! and I feel happy and satisfied, haha. how long do you suggest I stay on my TDEE intake? what I got out of it is that 2 weeks are recommended, but I've seen people doing it for way longer which I honestly would like to avoid.

    thank you so much! I feel like I learned more in the past three days than I did in the past 6 months!

    As to time at reset, depends on how much damage that 6 months did prior, and genetics, and other stresses against the body.

    As you are coming up, you'll get an idea.
    If each week turns in to maintenance with no loss or gain as you near TDEE - then likely not doing good. Staying at TDEE and in fact testing 250 more would be good idea.
    If few last weeks prior to estimated TDEE cause some weight loss - then good because body speeded up enough to give you a deficit. Just couple weeks hopefully at TDEE is good.

    In the following study, it took 3 months eating at lab measured maintenance, not potential, real maintenance, for RMR to increase half of what it was suppressed by. So was by 500, increased to only suppressed by 250 about.

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/heybales/view/reduced-metabolism-tdee-beyond-expected-from-weight-loss-616251

    So you are hoping that by going up a tad over probably real maintenance, you are getting that speed up faster. Hopefully.
  • marie0108
    marie0108 Posts: 19
    As to time at reset, depends on how much damage that 6 months did prior, and genetics, and other stresses against the body.

    As you are coming up, you'll get an idea.
    If each week turns in to maintenance with no loss or gain as you near TDEE - then likely not doing good. Staying at TDEE and in fact testing 250 more would be good idea.
    If few last weeks prior to estimated TDEE cause some weight loss - then good because body speeded up enough to give you a deficit. Just couple weeks hopefully at TDEE is good.

    In the following study, it took 3 months eating at lab measured maintenance, not potential, real maintenance, for RMR to increase half of what it was suppressed by. So was by 500, increased to only suppressed by 250 about.

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/heybales/view/reduced-metabolism-tdee-beyond-expected-from-weight-loss-616251

    So you are hoping that by going up a tad over probably real maintenance, you are getting that speed up faster. Hopefully.

    heybales, I'm back! :D and I did it! I ate at TDEE for 2.5 weeks, gained 1 - 2 lbs, and I've been feeling amazing! I could tell that my metabolism was kickstarted! I started Insanity last Monday and would like to cut again, how much do you think I should go down? I only burn between 300 and 350 kcal during my Insanity workouts and other than those, I'm very sedentary (desk job plus full time student finishing up grad school, haha). I've been lowering my intake to around 1500 a day, should I go up again to TDEE -20%? that'd be 1600 for me. I still haven't lost a pound and am ready to get rid of those last 10 lbs!
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    Only that much for Insanity?
    Or it is only 30 min, that seems low for the "intervals upside down" method of high-end aerobic/anaerobic range mainly.

    10 lbs to go should be 10% actually.
    Unless you want another fight on your hands you'll lose, and not weight.

    You might use 15% until you hit 10 lbs left, so biggest deficit while metabolism is humming along.
    Then switch to 10% and eat more and hopefully don't scare body in to slowing down again.

    It appears it was more than willing to speed up metabolism fast - but that probably means it is more than willing to slow down fast too. Why risk it and drag it out even longer?

    And TDEE may change now too with new workout schedule?
  • marie0108
    marie0108 Posts: 19
    Only that much for Insanity?
    Or it is only 30 min, that seems low for the "intervals upside down" method of high-end aerobic/anaerobic range mainly.

    10 lbs to go should be 10% actually.
    Unless you want another fight on your hands you'll lose, and not weight.

    You might use 15% until you hit 10 lbs left, so biggest deficit while metabolism is humming along.
    Then switch to 10% and eat more and hopefully don't scare body in to slowing down again.

    It appears it was more than willing to speed up metabolism fast - but that probably means it is more than willing to slow down fast too. Why risk it and drag it out even longer?

    And TDEE may change now too with new workout schedule?

    yes, unfortunately. I have no idea why I don't burn more, I have sweat dripping off my body throughout every single one of the workouts. I'll start to dig even deeper, as Shaun T suggests. but I wonder why it isn't more. I burn way more on my 40 minute runs.

    alright, I'll recalculate my TDEE tomorrow after having my body fat % measured at a gym and then start with a 15% decrease and then lower to 10%. oh god, I wonder if my body will ever let go of another lb, haha. fingers crossed.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    Totally forgot to include question in there - how are you determining the calorie burn during the exercise?

    And since I think I know the answer - what make and model?

    You have access to treadmill?
  • marie0108
    marie0108 Posts: 19
    Totally forgot to include question in there - how are you determining the calorie burn during the exercise?

    And since I think I know the answer - what make and model?

    You have access to treadmill?

    Polar FT4! :) and unfortunately I don't. but I've been thinking about adding some walking. or some light exercise videos, like Pilates or something.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    So the cheaper Polars are missing a key stat to improve calculations of calories burned related to HR - VO2max.

    It calculates it based on your BMI (height & weight) and where in healthy range is that (gender & age) to decide if it is higher or lower.

    That assumption has some problems, namely you can get cardio fit faster than you can lose weight.

    So a low HR during a workout if you are fit means you didn't need the heart pumping as hard to supply needed oxygen, but you burned just as much as if unfit and higher HR.
    But the HRM doesn't know that, it sees lower HR, assumed not great VO2max (fitness level), and calculated lower calorie burn.

    That could be one reason.

    Other more likely, since you do reach higher on your runs, just tired on the P90X and not getting the HR as high.
    HRM on that type of workout should actually be inflating the calorie burn, because it's totally the wrong kind of workout for it.
    But if you are attempting it tired, you may be making it more steady-state aerobic than what it normally is, which is totally varied anaerobic workout.

    Eating more will help recovery, and may aid in being stronger for those workouts.
    You ever see his calorie goals for his workouts. That may shock you too.
  • marie0108
    marie0108 Posts: 19
    So the cheaper Polars are missing a key stat to improve calculations of calories burned related to HR - VO2max.

    It calculates it based on your BMI (height & weight) and where in healthy range is that (gender & age) to decide if it is higher or lower.

    That assumption has some problems, namely you can get cardio fit faster than you can lose weight.

    So a low HR during a workout if you are fit means you didn't need the heart pumping as hard to supply needed oxygen, but you burned just as much as if unfit and higher HR.
    But the HRM doesn't know that, it sees lower HR, assumed not great VO2max (fitness level), and calculated lower calorie burn.

    That could be one reason.

    Other more likely, since you do reach higher on your runs, just tired on the P90X and not getting the HR as high.
    HRM on that type of workout should actually be inflating the calorie burn, because it's totally the wrong kind of workout for it.
    But if you are attempting it tired, you may be making it more steady-state aerobic than what it normally is, which is totally varied anaerobic workout.

    Eating more will help recovery, and may aid in being stronger for those workouts.
    You ever see his calorie goals for his workouts. That may shock you too.

    I see! it totally makes sense now, wow. I'll look into replacing my HRM then. I didn't know anything about them when I first got mine and I only ever used it for runs, it always felt like it was pretty accurate. I only got it to monitor my heart rate in the first place. but yes, I can totally see where you're coming from, thank you so much! and yes, I know! everybody else seems to be burning way more than what I've been seeing. I'll definitelly look into getting one of the Polar HRMs with more advanced features that measure according to your actual stats instead of the average BMI. and yet again, it feels like I learned a ton from just one of your answers :D thanks!